Penalty points

I was stoped for going through a Red light. i didn't see it. The fact that someone was on the path waiting to cross, suggests the light was orange rather than red. I drove back the same way the following day & realised that the lights cannot be seen, due to trees over hanging the lights. The Garda was very aggressive & i get made an issue of the type of car i'm driving, which sould have nothing to do with it. I tried to explain i didn't see them, but he wasn't interested. I appealed it to the supterintendant & was turned down. I either accept the two points & fine or have to go to court to argue my case. surely there should be some indepenant appeal, rather than having to go to court.

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Originally Posted by Ringo

The Garda was very aggressive

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That does not surprise me at all. So many of them have such an attitude.

Sounds like just bad luck. My advice is to take it on the chin and get on with your life. It's only 2 points. If you lose in court it's 4 and your chances are 50/50, depending on the mood of the judge.

Ringo,I'd be challenging that on the basis you described,especially if you can say you're not from the vicinity and wouldn't know there were lights there.

On a related matter there are a whole lot of people appealing about "breaking a red light" convictions, because on some traffic lights there's not enough time on orange to get from one side to the other thus making you look like you broke the lights even if you came through on amber.

I agree with 12 th man, I'd challenge that, particularly if I had zero points as four don't make any difference on insurance acceptance, and little difference on insurance loading. If I had two I'd be less likely, but not by a whole lot as it seems pretty set in stone. However it's worth adding that in traffic court, there can be a reliance on the judge's mood, so it's never worth taking for granted.

If you do challenge it, ffs don't forget to bring the photo evidence with you. Print out several copies, and make 'em big in case you get an old fart that can't see his nose in front of his eyes!

I don't really understand the appeal logic though. The court is your independent appeal. If there was a risk-free step before that, everyone would challenge everything.

adam

I'd also be in the challenge camp. But maybe you should get a few photos of when the lights are red as well to back up your claim that you genuinely couldn't see, through no fault of your own, whether they were red or not. You could also make the point that, from what I can tell, there is no paint on the road to indicate that there is a pedestrian crossing.

They'll argue that as you were unfamiliar with the road, and as its a residential/build up area you should've been going at a speed where you would've been able to see the lights.

Note this is note my personal opinion, I'm just saying your appeal won't be automatic

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Originally Posted by Dodge

They'll argue that as you were unfamiliar with the road, and as its a residential/build up area you should've been going at a speed where you would've been able to see the lights.

Note this is note my personal opinion, I'm just saying your appeal won't be automatic

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It was a motorbike cop behind me. The car I have is a fast one. If I was speeding he would have done me. I’ve never been done for speeding. They are in the process of cutting down the trees. There’s no signs to indicate, traffic lights ahead. Their also, not a junction, so it hard to anticipate them. I'm thinking of just taking the 2 points, rather than all the hassle of going to court etc. It really bugs me though. Young(ok 38!) guy, fast car, do him. I've lost a lot of respect for the Guards since this incident. The attitude was really bad. As I say, it should be immaterial what I’m driving.

There is a no u turn sign behind some trees beside albert college. I must have made a u turn about ten times before i seen it. Dodges argument wouldnt
hold once your not breaking the speed limit you have a case.

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Originally Posted by Ringo

There’s no signs to indicate, traffic lights ahead. Their also, not a junction, so it hard to anticipate them

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There's a sign indicating junction on your left

Continuing with the devil's advocacy, it's quite likely they'll argue that the photo is taken 50 yards or so back from the lights too. They might think you're cherry-picking.

adam

I would be inclined to appeal but it is a lot of hassle & I would say if the Garda turns up on the day you have zero chance.

I know the road very well. The right side street after the lights is very dangerous as zero viability & you have to pull out into the middle of the road before can see the coming traffic. Maybe you should ask the Gardai why they have not solved that?

Most Gardai are not aggressive but ALL Motorcycle Gardai are rude, ignorant & especially aggressive.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

There's a sign indicating junction on your left

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The junction is after the lights and not at it. The lights are purely for pedestrians. I sent in about six photos from different angles and distances. The supt, just said it was issued legally & any evidence would have to be presented in court. I decided to just pay the fine and accept the two points, i don't have a lot of faith in the justice system in these cases. The guard threatened me with dangerous driving, for what i don't know. Just don't need the hassle in my life & i'd be unbearable to live with if i lost & got four points.

If you aren't happy with the way the Garda treated you, take your case to the Garda ombudsman. Too many citizens are afraid of repurcussions if they do this. But the times are changing and I think a lot of Gardai are more aware of their responsibilities now.I think you also have more than reasonable grounds for appeal. I don't know why there is an automatic doubling of the points if the appeal fails. This may be unconstitutional as it should be at least at the discretion of the judge.

Bikers in leather, Gardai or John Doe, they're all the same. take a trip out past Lusk on the Skerries Road this weekend for the Killalane Road races and you'll see plenty of motorbike cops swanning around with the Devils Disciples and all the other bikers. It must be the leathers ;)

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Originally Posted by onceahoop

If you aren't happy with the way the Garda treated you, take your case to the Garda ombudsman.

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You have snowball chance in hell of getting anywhere with a complaint. My word against his.


http://www.sbpost.ie/breakingnews/ir...mhcwkfojsnsn/#

Did you read beyond the headline Ringo? That article is about the Garda Complaints Bureau, an in-house complaints department that's been disbanded specifically because of it's ineffectiveness. It's been replaced by the independent Ombudsman mentioned in the article.

adam

Ringo,have you taken professional advice or shown this Photo to a Solicitor ?

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Did you read beyond the headline Ringo? That article is about the Garda Complaints Bureau, an in-house complaints department that's been disbanded specifically because of it's ineffectiveness. It's been replaced by the independent Ombudsman mentioned in the article.

adam

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http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/gsoc-ga...complaints.htm

Possible Outcomes
If your complaint is dealt with through one of the methods of investigation, there are three possible outcomes:

If it appears that there may have been a breach under the Garda Síochána (Discipline) Regulations the Garda Ombudsman may make recommendations to the Garda Commissioner concerning disciplinary proceedings.
If it appears that the case may warrant criminal prosecution the Garda Ombudsman may send a file to the Director for Public Prosecutions.
It is important to remember that the Garda Ombudsman seeks to establish truth based on evidence lawfully gathered. If there is insufficient evidence to support one of the above the case may be dismissed.



Seems the same thing under a different name. His word against mine, even if they think he was in the wrong, they'd still be asking the commissioner to do something, who won't.


If your complaint warrants an investigation it will be carried out in one of the following ways:

Garda Investigation »
Supervised Garda Investigation »
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission Investigation


The first two are the Guards investigating themselves:rolleyes:
then your sure he or one of his mates will get you for something else. they know where you live, what you drive etc

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Originally Posted by the 12 th man

Ringo,have you taken professional advice or shown this Photo to a Solicitor ?

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i think as Dahamsta said earlier , its down to a judge on the day. yes i think i have a case, but is it really worth the hassle?

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Originally Posted by Ringo

. yes i think i have a case, but is it really worth the hassle?

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It would imo,if you don't have a good case it will save you the bother of appealing .
I would think it wouldn't cost the earth to show the photo to someone who spends time in court dealing with exactly this type of situation.

If you don't go to court there probably won't even be a fee?(from the Solicitor)

You're perfectly entitled to not challenge or make an official complaint Ringo, but if that's the case, what was the point in taking a photo and bitching about it in the first place? Just to have a whine about it? It's such an Irish thing to do. We come back from restaurants and complain about the bad food we got, we vote for morons and complain about the moronic things they do, we get bad service in shops and go back there again. When will we learn?

This isn't Current Affairs any more. It's just Off Topic. Sorry.

adam

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

You're perfectly entitled to not challenge or make an official complaint Ringo, but if that's the case, what was the point in taking a photo and bitching about it in the first place? Just to have a whine about it? It's such an Irish thing to do. We come back from restaurants and complain about the bad food we got, we vote for morons and complain about the moronic things they do, we get bad service in shops and go back there again. When will we learn?

This isn't Current Affairs any more. It's just Off Topic. Sorry.

adam

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i rang up and asked whts was the procedure in appealing it. i was told i could appeal it the the superintendant. I got my photos, wrote an appeal & sent it off. The Supt wrote back & said it was issued in accordance with blah blah bla, basically a one line letter. if there not prepared to accept the evidence at this stage & want to go to court, they obviously are happy to go all the way.
I do complain in restaurants or shops when the service is bad. In the garda situation, you can never win. If you say anything, they start going around your car looking for things to do you on. if your on your own, there no point complaing. As with all situations, if it your word against another, your wasting your time.

I respect your taking it as far as the super, I simply think complaining about it without taking it any further is a waste of your time and ours. If you have a problem, try to fix it or mutter to yourself about it. I also think that maligning the Ombudsman despite zero evidence of corruption or inefficiency - they haven't had time to generate any evidence of same - is pretty low.

adam

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I respect your taking it as far as the super, I simply think complaining about it without taking it any further is a waste of your time and ours. If you have a problem, try to fix it or mutter to yourself about it. I also think that maligning the Ombudsman despite zero evidence of corruption or inefficiency - they haven't had time to generate any evidence of same - is pretty low.

adam

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The problem is the line of complaint is still the same. The gardai investigate themselves. They are still expecting the commissioner to discipline the officers. The gardai should be trained to deal properly with people. If you have an issue with an individual Guard, you are not going to get anywhere. Lets face it weather its guards or your boss, when it comes down to one persons word against another the case falls apart. The problem is in training & attitude to the public.

I really dislike repeating myself.

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Originally Posted by Ringo

The problem is the line of complaint is still the same. The gardai investigate themselves. They are still expecting the commissioner to discipline the officers. The gardai should be trained to deal properly with people. If you have an issue with an individual Guard, you are not going to get anywhere. Lets face it weather its guards or your boss, when it comes down to one persons word against another the case falls apart. The problem is in training & attitude to the public.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I also think that maligning the Ombudsman despite zero evidence of corruption or inefficiency - they haven't had time to generate any evidence of same - is pretty low.

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Originally Posted by Ringo

The problem is the line of complaint is still the same. The gardai investigate themselves. They are still expecting the commissioner to discipline the officers. The gardai should be trained to deal properly with people. If you have an issue with an individual Guard, you are not going to get anywhere. Lets face it weather its guards or your boss, when it comes down to one persons word against another the case falls apart. The problem is in training & attitude to the public.

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the gardai do not investigate themselves anymore the ombudsman is a completely seperate organisation, and as such in law any recommendations they must must be undertaken by the gardai, i.e. if the ombudsman recommends that a garda should be disciplined then it must be done.
also dont think the problem is training i firmly believe that it is completely down to the person involved, of course there are going to be bad eggs, it just seems that they all seem to be in the traffic corps!!

i would def go to court and take my chances, for a number of reasons, one the garda himself may not turn up, and secondly if you can present your photographs to the garda himself before the case is called he might agree to a strike out and if all else fails i would be very confident that a judge would not convict with the evidence you have

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Originally Posted by inexile

the gardai do not investigate themselves anymore the ombudsman is a completely seperate organisation,

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read the website

If your complaint warrants an investigation it will be carried out in one of the following ways:

Garda Investigation »
Supervised Garda Investigation »
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission Investigation »

exactly, which means the final decision rests with the ombudsman who goes over the whole file and if he/she decides that the investigation is not whole and proper he/she has the power to go into garda stations and search, detain, question gardai etc

For anyone that is interested the trees in the OP picture have now been cut back fairly dramatically. Its possible to see the lights now from 100m as opposed to the previous 20m.