under 21s

Over the weekend I went to an under 21 game. I’ve been going to the 21s for the last 3 years or so as the football is really good and fast. Officials in this league are not usually LOI officials and are instead chosen from the local leagues. So a local team will usually have an all local official list. Despite the under 21s not getting any pay, little or no gate receipts, travel, food and maybe pitch rental, the officials are paid handsomely for basically walking across the road.

I’ve watched excellent teams get beaten by home town decisions, where the ref could be related to someone on the home team. I’ve seen quarter and semi finals of premier under 21 leagues being played on the worse of junior pitches, but one thing these officials have in common is, there crap! With a GAA style of reffing the norm (stand at the half way line and whistle and never move from that position) you really have to ask is this the best young talent at your club can be offered?

These officials aren’t used to the passion, fervour, humour, of the everyday LOI supporter so you can imagine what usually happens when someone other then the normal under 21 supporter (family, junior club rep etc)turns up!

Waterford and Limerick were playing in the Waterford crystal sports facilities on Saturday. Now Waterford won well (2 1), they were the better, bigger and much older team the limerick lads who were all just 18 and the likes. I was at the corner flag in this windswept playing area consisting of a football pitch, two GAA pitches and I think a rugby pitch. There was a questionable foul by a limerick player on a Waterford player in that corner and to my surprise the official flagged hysterically as if a player was mortally wounded. I simply said to him “are you serious?” which he responded to shouting “GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY” ala John O’Donaghue. I said I’m watching the game and I’m going no where to which he started flagging and calling the ref over to deal with me. The ref, whose name was….Maaaaaaaaa,! (Not sure how many “a”s) left his half way line position and asked me to “leave him alone or ill get you booted out, and if you don’t go ill call off the game!”

So for questioning a touch judges decision, the only people in this wide open space who were getting paid, were going to call off a game (1 min or 90 mins they still get paid?)

This level of refereeing is unacceptable. I know it’s the cheap option but surely LOI refs should be asked/made to ref one senior and one under 21 games in a weekend to bring in a bit of “better professionalism” and show the young players who they are officiating over that you have indeed come up a level.

BTW a few things. A foul in under 21 level seems to be a whistle (blown from the half way line) and no foul is folded arms (while at the half way line). A lot of rolling arms and leg movement (from the half way line) seems to be significant also but I can’t figure that out yet after three years. Maybe it’s some sort of mating thing among referees. Anyone else have opinions or stories of under 21 officals?

you should experience our games, the referee is from sligo but his bias against us is so obvious. its a disgrace

I've been going to U-21 games for 3 years now and the ref has always been a joke. The same ref got rewarded with a trip to Malta for an U-21 international last month. He was linesman there.

I have to say I've never noticed any real difference in refereeing in under 21 games and EL games.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

I have to say I've never noticed any real difference in refereeing in under 21 games and EL games.

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afaik dublin has a much better standard of refereeing as there are far more LOI referees. I have heard many complaitnts about refeering standards in the West where predominantly local/junior referees are used. As there is no CSL and only junior football in connaght, the referees and linesmen are from junior grade where the pace of the game is nowhere near U21 and the acceptable standard for refs is far lower.

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

afaik dublin has a much better standard of refereeing as there are far more LOI referees.

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Fair enough, that makes sense.

I'll never forget the time a Bray under-21 player was sent off for kicking the ball at the linesman. It's not as bad as it sounds....

There'd been a free kick given to the other side and the Bray player (Keith Kelch, iirc) kickked the ball away. But he put a bit too much into it and the ball smacked the lino about ten yards away square in the ribs. He was winded for the rest of the match and kept pressing his ribs. I don't think it was intentional.

I honestly find that I am ****ed with ref decisions at senior games a lot more then at the under-21's. I don't know if the refs are better or not but they definitely don't make as many dodgy calls.

In our quarter final against Bray lasy year one of our defenders simply passed the ball to someone else on our team and was sent off.

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Originally Posted by superfrank

I'll never forget the time a Bray under-21 player was sent off for kicking the ball at the linesman. It's not as bad as it sounds....

There'd been a free kick given to the other side and the Bray player (Keith Kelch, iirc) kickked the ball away. But he put a bit too much into it and the ball smacked the lino about ten yards away square in the ribs. He was winded for the rest of the match and kept pressing his ribs. I don't think it was intentional.

I honestly find that I am ****ed with ref decisions at senior games a lot more then at the under-21's. I don't know if the refs are better or not but they definitely don't make as many dodgy calls.

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One of the funniest moments i have ever seen in football! and yes it was Keltchy alright, tried to keep the ball in and smacked it as the ref blew his whistle, smacked into the side of the lino who crumbled like he had been shot. Was at another of our U21 games a few seasons ago and th ball was drilled at the ref (Rhona D) and she caught the bloody ball !

Reffing is normally not that bad, normally an eL ref or assistant that do it, maybe we dont think there's as much at stake in these games so dont go as mad at some of the decisions they make?

The u-21 league is used as a breeder ground for the most part for officials who are on the eircom league panel of officials but who do not referee in the premier and first divisions in senior football. The same way it is used as a breeder ground for clubs to use to blood their young players. The same standard may not be there as far as officials are concerned but that is due in no small part due to a little inexperience. The same can be said of the players, the same standard of play cannot be expected of those who are less experienced than players who play for the first team.
There are exceptions around the country where established referees referee u-21 matches, i have seen them. It appears that in the u-21 league that officials are appointed due to locality. This would be for many reasons, cost is always a factor. The officials are chosen from the panel of appointed eircom league officials but from time to time, local officials may be used due to unavailability of eircom officials but as assistant referees as opposed to referees.
It is important to remember that these officials are part time. It would be very difficult to travel to cork on friday to ref a game and then return to dublin and ref an u-21 game on saturday afternoon. There simply aren't enough officials for that to happen.

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Originally Posted by BrayUnknowns

Reffing is normally not that bad, normally an eL ref or assistant that do it, maybe we dont think there's as much at stake in these games so dont go as mad at some of the decisions they make?

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Perhaps. You'd look like a bit of a nutter alright, down the Carlisle on a Tuesday night with maybe 50 other people and standing there bellowing at the ref and the lino. But then again I just can't remember anytime that a ref decision in an under-21s game has really wound me up.

I've only been to one U21 game, L37 v Salthill friendly a couple of weeks ago. I thought the ref and lino's were top class. I'd be interested to hear what you thought of the officials at this particular game Gael ?

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Originally Posted by Copa Mundial

The u-21 league is used as a breeder ground for the most part for officials who are on the eircom league panel of officials but who do not referee in the premier and first divisions in senior football. The same way it is used as a breeder ground for clubs to use to blood their young players.

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Well if thats true then we're ****ed in future as most of them that ive seen are over age, over weight and over paid!

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Originally Posted by Copa Mundial

The same standard may not be there as far as officials are concerned but that is due in no small part due to a little inexperience. The same can be said of the players, the same standard of play cannot be expected of those who are less experienced than players who play for the first team.

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Sorry mate im not swallowing that **** at all, take off the refs outfit cos thats just propaganda talk

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Originally Posted by Copa Mundial

There are exceptions around the country where established referees referee u-21 matches, i have seen them. It appears that in the u-21 league that officials are appointed due to locality. This would be for many reasons, cost is always a factor. The officials are chosen from the panel of appointed eircom league officials but from time to time, local officials may be used due to unavailability of eircom officials but as assistant referees as opposed to referees.

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From what ive seen over the last three years el refs only get involved at 1/4 final stage and the ****e are left to say who comes out of each group. Location being the main reason and yes they are overpaid for their crapness.

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Originally Posted by Copa Mundial

It is important to remember that these officials are part time. It would be very difficult to travel to cork on friday to ref a game and then return to dublin and ref an u-21 game on saturday afternoon. There simply aren't enough officials for that to happen.

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No one is asking them to and you are after stating extremely unlikely rubbish. again all i asked was that EL refs ref an under 21 game in on the same weekend, it can be their local under 21 team but at least it wont be some non moving half way line GAA ref laughing as he gets paid for bulling young players

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Originally Posted by KevB76

I've only been to one U21 game, L37 v Salthill friendly a couple of weeks ago. I thought the ref and lino's were top class. I'd be interested to hear what you thought of the officials at this particular game Gael ?

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sorry Kev if that was you reffing lol but i was a busy sorting stuff in the ground that night. Limerick to be fair use refs who are not in the LDMC duristiction to be fair and use refs from Desmond and Clare but the standard isnt that great either.

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Originally Posted by gael353

sorry Kev if that was you reffing lol but i was a busy sorting stuff in the ground that night. Limerick to be fair use refs who are not in the LDMC duristiction to be fair and use refs from Desmond and Clare but the standard isnt that great either.

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Wasn't me, no chance, I'm far too mentally fragile to cope with stick that most ref's suffer :D

The reason I asked is the lino's at that game were two of only four young Limerick ref's recently selected for some special ref training course organised by the FAI, basically they are the cream of the crop and if you werent happy with them then god help us all all as these lads are future of EL reffing. Anyways I thought they were decent, and isn't it reassuring to know that at least our U21's home games will be reffed by the best :)

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Originally Posted by gael353

Well if thats true then we're ****ed in future as most of them that ive seen are over age, over weight and over paid!




Sorry mate im not swallowing that **** at all, take off the refs outfit cos thats just propaganda talk




From what ive seen over the last three years el refs only get involved at 1/4 final stage and the ****e are left to say who comes out of each group. Location being the main reason and yes they are overpaid for their crapness.




No one is asking them to and you are after stating extremely unlikely rubbish. again all i asked was that EL refs ref an under 21 game in on the same weekend, it can be their local under 21 team but at least it wont be some non moving half way line GAA ref laughing as he gets paid for bulling young players

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Well thats me told! All educated responses, you must more than me on this topic. I'll leave well enough alone. Knowledge is the key!!!

Feel I must respond to a couple of points made here, a bit misleading I'm afraid Gael, have to stick up for the local lads. This is just in reply to what you posted, not getting in the middle of your debate with Copa Mundial.
First off, the Waterford team may have been bigger but they were not 'much older'. 5 of the side won the Munster Youth Cup with Tramore only last year FFS, and a 6th would have started only he got sick before the game. Only Fennelly (last minute replacement GK) and Stephen Cooling (himself hardly a hulking giant of a man) would be considered senior players.

Secondly, Maa may not be the best referee, but any Waterford ball player on here will tell you he's an honest guy, very fair and is definitely not one of these centre circle refs, of which there is plenty it's true.
Also I'm surprised as a Limerick fan you didn't recognise one of the linesmen was none other than former Blues and Limerick legend Johnny Matthews. I hope it wasn't the one you were abusing! ;) :D

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Originally Posted by gael353

The ref, whose name was….Maaaaaaaaa,! (Not sure how many “a”s) left his half way line position and asked me to “leave him alone or ill get you booted out, and if you don’t go ill call off the game!”

So for questioning a touch judges decision, the only people in this wide open space who were getting paid, were going to call off a game (1 min or 90 mins they still get paid?)

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Read your own post again. The ref, by your words above, clearly said to you (rightly or wrongly) to stop arguing with the linesman, that if you didn't stop arguing with the linesman he would then get you removed, and then if you didn't go at that stage he would stop the game. That's a bit different from 'going to call off the game for questioning a decision', no?
Your overall point is a very valid one that doesn't need to be lessened by exaggerations like this.

Rhona hates me!! Ive been playing at the u 21 grade for 3 years now and she's booked me 3 times out of 5 games!! And i'm a goalkeeper!!!

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Originally Posted by stann

Feel I must respond to a couple of points made here, a bit misleading I'm afraid Gael, have to stick up for the local lads. This is just in reply to what you posted, not getting in the middle of your debate with Copa Mundial.

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Misleading? never :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by stann

First off, the Waterford team may have been bigger but they were not 'much older'. 5 of the side won the Munster Youth Cup with Tramore only last year FFS, and a 6th would have started only he got sick before the game. Only Fennelly (last minute replacement GK) and Stephen Cooling (himself hardly a hulking giant of a man) would be considered senior players.

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Thats fair enough mate they just looked a lot older then ours as i think only 2 of ours maybe at max four in the squad are over 19, but this isnt in stone so i maybe incorrect.


[QUOTE=stann;718511Secondly, Maa may not be the best referee, but any Waterford ball player on here will tell you he's an honest guy, very fair and is definitely not one of these centre circle refs, of which there is plenty it's true.
Also I'm surprised as a Limerick fan you didn't recognise one of the linesmen was none other than former Blues and Limerick legend Johnny Matthews. I hope it wasn't the one you were abusing! ;) :D .[/QUOTE]

Fair honest whatever hes still not upto it IMO. your introducing a word there that i dont think i used "abusing"

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Originally Posted by stann

Read your own post again. The ref, by your words above, clearly said to you (rightly or wrongly) to stop arguing with the linesman, that if you didn't stop arguing with the linesman he would then get you removed, and then if you didn't go at that stage he would stop the game. That's a bit different from 'going to call off the game for questioning a decision', no?

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Oops there you go again "abusing" and im reading "my own words" and i dont see any mention of abusing anyone. The ref did not ask me to stop arguing with lino he asked me to move away and leave him alone, again you use "arguing" with the lino but clearly i wasnt arguing with him only questioning his decision making and your right there is a massive differance .....with what you say i said and what i know i said or didnt say but keep typing it cos its fantastic stuff


[QUOTE=stann;718511Your overall point is a very valid one that doesn't need to be lessened by exaggerations like this.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the first part and i wont bother about the second only to applaud you for spelling such a big and challenging word

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Originally Posted by Copa Mundial

Well thats me told! All educated responses, you must more than me on this topic. I'll leave well enough alone. Knowledge is the key!!!

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No i do not no more then the next man but if its reffing your saying then knowledge deffo isnt the key. Your responces are excellent and well thought out and prob better spelt then mine

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Originally Posted by gael353

Fair honest whatever hes still not upto it IMO. your introducing a word there that i dont think i used "abusing"

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And I put a ;) and a :D after it which I would have thought signified a joke but obviously not. My fault, I didn't realise I needed to spell it out.

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Originally Posted by gael353

Oops there you go again "abusing" and im reading "my own words" and i dont see any mention of abusing anyone. The ref did not ask me to stop arguing with lino he asked me to move away and leave him alone, again you use "arguing" with the lino but clearly i wasnt arguing with him only questioning his decision making and your right there is a massive differance .....with what you say i said and what i know i said or didnt say but keep typing it cos its fantastic stuff.

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Hopefully dealt with the 'abusing' thing but the fact remains you suggested in the original post that for what you said to the linesman the ref threatened to have the game called off ("So for questioning a touch judges decision, the only people in this wide open space who were getting paid, were going to call off a game").
That obviously wasn't going to be the case because then you quoted him telling you two more things that needed to happen before the game would have been called off, namely you not leaving the linesman alone and then you not going when asked to leave (I'm not suggesting for a minute, BTW, that you'd have done either of these things, just that it's what you said he said).
So it was an exaggeration, no matter how long you think the word is. I politely decline your applause as it's not really that long.

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Originally Posted by stann

And I put a ;) and a :D after it which I would have thought signified a joke but obviously not. My fault, I didn't realise I needed to spell it out.

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nah ur garnad and sorry for not picking it up

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Originally Posted by stann

That obviously wasn't going to be the case because then you quoted him telling you two more things that needed to happen before the game would have been called off, namely you not leaving the linesman alone and then you not going when asked to leave (I'm not suggesting for a minute, BTW, that you'd have done either of these things, just that it's what you said he said).
So it was an exaggeration, no matter how long you think the word is. I politely decline your applause as it's not really that long.

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Right first up you havent got the jist of this at all (the part about poor reffing as oppsed to protect everything waterford united) Now in the org post i clearly stated why the game was going to be called off, i tried to re state for you why this was going to happen in my reply to you. I also may have farted during my challenge to the officials...oh wait ill take back that word challange in case you say something like "oh another reason why the game wasnt going to be called off" ****e. Listen mate you introduced the word "abuse" into what u would have liked me to say and now you go on about an exaggeration! Listen Stann, your not sky news, or the FAI introducing words or phrases to try and get spin on what you would like to see happen eg..."obviously," "so it was an exaggeration!" was it? you have yet to prove otherwise without introducing things and words which you would like me to say or pretend that i have said that it was an exaggeration. The reffing was crap...end of

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Originally Posted by gael353

Now in the org post i clearly stated why the game was going to be called off, i tried to re state for you why this was going to happen in my reply to you. I also may have farted during my challenge to the officials...oh wait ill take back that word challange in case you say something like "oh another reason why the game wasnt going to be called off" ****e. Listen mate you introduced the word "abuse" into what u would have liked me to say and now you go on about an exaggeration!

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First off, the word 'abusing' I used. I clearly put that in as a joke, with reference to Johnny Matthews who you didn't recognise on the touchline, and it was clearly put in as an aside and not part of the argument I'm making at all, so how it can be me 'spinning' I don't know. I then spelled it out that it was meant as a joke, and you just replied above that were sorry for not picking it up, but you still use it in your argument below that? What's that all about??!!

Now part of your original post is below. You're right, it clearly states why the game was going to be called off if it came to that. And it's not because of what was initially said to the lineman.

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Originally Posted by gael353

There was a questionable foul by a limerick player on a Waterford player in that corner and to my surprise the official flagged hysterically as if a player was mortally wounded. I simply said to him “are you serious?” which he responded to shouting “GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY” ala John O’Donaghue. I said I’m watching the game and I’m going no where to which he started flagging and calling the ref over to deal with me. The ref, whose name was….Maaaaaaaaa,! (Not sure how many “a”s) left his half way line position and asked me to “leave him alone or ill get you booted out, and if you don’t go ill call off the game!”

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Then you said:

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Originally Posted by gael353

So for questioning a touch judges decision, the only people in this wide open space who were getting paid, were going to call off a game (1 min or 90 mins they still get paid?)

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Are you really telling me there's not a huge difference between these two things? I think you were exaggerating for effect, trying to put a worse spin on a ref you don't rate, but who I felt needed a bit of defending as he's not the worst. That's all.
He's known as Maa by the way, not Maaaaaaaaa.

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Originally Posted by stann

Are you really telling me there's not a huge difference between these two things? I think you were exaggerating for effect, trying to put a worse spin on a ref you don't rate, but who I felt needed a bit of defending as he's not the worst. That's all.

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Defending from what exactly??

Would you even try and deny for a second that the situation was laughable??

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He's known as Maa by the way, not Maaaaaaaaa

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Who gives a bulls pizzle

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Defending from what exactly??
Would you even try and deny for a second that the situation was laughable??
...
Who gives a bulls pizzle

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No, not going to deny that, or that the referreeing was crap. I just thought that Gael was being a bit harsh on a normally decent junior league ref, by over-egging a story he posted to demonstrate incompetence in U-21 refs in general. And bull's pizzle was quite the delicacy back in the day so I'm told. :)

I agree about the sometimes deplorable standard of reffing in the U-21 leagues, given that they are frequently junior league (down here at least) referees, but would suppose it does come down to funds. I don't know if they get paid less for officiating a U-21 game than League officials get, though I expect they do, but certainly the travel expenses are minimised or cut out completely by using local people, and with little or no cash return by way of sponsorship or gate receipts then that would be the overriding concern.

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Originally Posted by stann

No, not going to deny that, or that the referreeing was crap. I just thought that Gael was being a bit harsh on a normally decent junior league ref, by over-egging a story he posted to demonstrate incompetence in U-21 refs in general. And bull's pizzle was quite the delicacy back in the day so I'm told. :)

I agree about the sometimes deplorable standard of reffing in the U-21 leagues, given that they are frequently junior league (down here at least) referees, but would suppose it does come down to funds. I don't know if they get paid less for officiating a U-21 game than League officials get, though I expect they do, but certainly the travel expenses are minimised or cut out completely by using local people, and with little or no cash return by way of sponsorship or gate receipts then that would be the overriding concern.

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To the best of my knowledge there are no EL refs/assistants based in Waterford or am i mistaken?
The point made about travel costs is a very valid one. Its either appoint a local official which is not ideal in terms of refereeing the game or appoint EL officials from Wexford/Limerick/Cork and the costs involved in that would not make any sense. It's not an ideal scenario for the u-21 league and that's no disrespect to the local refs who end up officiating the games, they carry out their duties to the best of their abilities.
Maybe it's something that the new FAI Ref recruitment officer will have to get stuck into...recruiting refs in all areas of the country so that eventually there will be top level officials based all over the country.

Not mistaken Copa, no EL refs down here since Jim O'Neill jacked it. Not sure about assistants, but don't think so either. Except Eddie Foley who doesn't go home anymore but gets folded up and put away with the nets after every game. :)
So yeah, anyone above junior league level would have to be bussed in.