Discuss, more thinking about the last 20 years
Discuss, more thinking about the last 20 years
Positive, most Irish players (with a few notable exceptions) wouldn't have been good enough to play in the top leagues of Spain, Italy and Germany and been as successful as they have been over in the overhyped Premiership. Had the Premiership not been up to scratch they would have been flundering in a poor English division, a poor Eircom League or at a poor Celtic side
a more pressing matter might be whether it has been a positive influence on the next 20 years. having crippled the eircom league, english football now appears happy to discard irish players should they not match the best of the world's youths at former hotspots like arsenal's youth system.
Speaking of the premiership. I wonder how the Irish lads will get on at City with Eriksson likely to take over. I can't see Ireland nailing down a permanent spot tbh..
It worries me the way so few of our players actually get out of the Premiership i.e. onto Continental Europe. Take a look at the Denmark and Czech team. Players in leagues all over Europe and i think this is a very positive thing for an international team
Very true, however Irish soccer partially has itself to blame for that and your history does shape your future.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
I think that has a lot to do with the fact that Ireland and England have a very similar culture and share the same language, often Irish players come over and feel very settledQuote:
Originally Posted by carloz
I'd love to see some Irish players playing on the continent irrespective of the fact that they generally don't prosper there.
It could give the squad variety and European experience.
Undoubtedly positive. If it wasnt for our proximity to England we would be nowhere near the level we are. A country with 3-4 million people where football is not the no.1 sport would normally be nowhere near qualifying for tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by carloz
Denmark has a pop of over 5 million and Czechs have 10 million people. Football is the number one sport in both. Unless you really think we are 'better' at sport the main thing we have over other countries is a close neighbour who has historically been happy to import our players.
Crippled the eircom league? Hardly the fault of the Premiership. If they fault lies anywhere, it is with SKY, or closer to home with lazy "fans" who cant be bothered to go to a game, because it "isnt real football" or, because of the lack of efforts by some clubs to market themselves, people are not really too attracted to eircom league. Also, in a period where eircom league teams' European results are stronger than ever before, leading some to compare the eircom league favourably to the Championship, it is hard to say that it has been "crippled".Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
And English football has always been happy to discard any footballer, Irish or otherwise, who don't make the grade. The same thing happens at every club in the world, as they try to stay competitive.
postive. i dont think its so important now that irish lads get to play in the european leagues with the number of foreign managers and coaches in england. i think the premier league is the strongest in europe and suits the "irish" players natural strengths.
i cannot agree that the premiership is the strongest league in europe but i do think it has given great experience to the irish players who are good enough to make the grade there.
I would agree. I cant say that weaker european countries with a strong neighbouring league would generally have the would have the same links.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
To be fair, a lot of the better players from the Danish/Belgian/Swiss/Austrian leagues will make their way to the French/German/Dutch league.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
There isnt the same concentration of players from one specific country to another specific league as there is Irish players to the premiership, but I dare say that has more to do with simple distance, and similarity language, as anything else.
English football or SKy hasn't crippled soccer in Ireland. It's historic going back to the ban on foreign sports and the hold the GAA, especially in rural Ireland, had on sport. The GAA was also going to be the No 1 sport after independence and it saw off soccer and still does.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Thanks heavens for English soccer for those of us who loved the game. I followed Rovers for years but going to half empty Dalymount to see Rovers play Bohs or Milltown behind the goal with a couple of thousand others was never going to compete with the huge crowds at big games which we could watch on Match of the Day and the Big Match. Soccer was emasculated by the GAA except in certain working class areas in Dublin and Cork and has never been able to catch up and never will.
Our top players then had no choice. Go to the Uk to progress or stagnate. Luckily the former was the option.
[QUOTE=OwlsFan;711541]English football or SKy hasn't crippled soccer in Ireland. It's historic going back to the ban on foreign sports and the hold the GAA, especially in rural Ireland, had on sport. The GAA was also going to be the No 1 sport after independence and it saw off soccer and still does.
Can some one remind me when the ban was lifted, over 40 years ago and we are still blaming it. Rugby was also a "foreign" game least we forget. Did we take FULL advantage of the Euro 88 and Italia 90 positive fallout. In hindsight, we didnt even touch the edges of what was a wonderful opportunity, especially as the GAA was particularly weak during that period and only saved by the famous and amazing Dublin/Meath replays. However, back to topic the premiership was/is a good thing for the Irish team, exposure to a high level of coaching that is available at most clubs can only be good.
I think it's a bit of a double edged sword. As the Premiership has progressed from a renamed Division One to the massive money making machine it is today, the top Irish footballers (Duff, both Keanes, Given, etc) have all benefited from both playing top class opposition and being given access to international standards of training. On the other hand, less talented players who may have still played in the old Division One have found themselves discarded at a much earlier age in a results driven business.
In a technical sense it has benefitted Irish players. Overall our current crop are far better technically than the players we churned out 20-30 years ago even if when all their qualities as footballers are considered in an overall sense, they possibly aren't as good.
On the whole I'm not sure it makes much of a difference to the Ireland team. While it means we no longer have the luxury of having 5 or 6 of our starting line up playing for the top teams in England I think that the imporvement in quality on the whole means that many of the players in mid-table teams (Duff, Doyle, Given) are just as good as some of the Irish players that played regularly for the Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton and United (they weren't great anyway until the Premiership kicked off) teams of yesteryear.
What it does mean though is that we have a smaller selection pool of players playing at the top level in England to choose from but I'd argue that the top Championship clubs these days are just as good, if not better, than the poorer Division 1 clubs 20 years ago considering all the foreign imports into that league also and the resulting improvements in quality.
i'm not "blaming" the premiership for it, but the undeniable truth is that since the 70s the main obstacle to irish football has been english football. all im saying is that where once irish players had a great opportunity to be part of one of football's best leagues, now very few make it and are in competition with players from all over the world. the national team has relied upon english clubs to train and educate its best players, and if that ever stops, or "slows down", can the national team rely on the national league with its, frankly, pathetic infrastructure?Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
The atmosphere is pretty good at some EL games...why do you need a load of other people there to enjoy a game? The league is totally different now than it was back when you were going to milltown.... you should go to a few games now before commenting.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Initially it made no difference I think, it was effectively just a rebranding.
Over time and as the £££ rolled in, imports of questionable quality crowded out British & Irish players, so only the best survived. It's a competitive globalised industry now and Enland is one of the main hubs. I think we were slow to adapt to the change in the competitive environment but the signs are that we're now finding a way to adapt.
In response to fewer opportunities at the top clubs many young players now opt for The Championship as a platform to launch their careers. As The Championship becomes more competitive it gives our second tier or emerging players better opportunity and a bigger stage than in the past. Likewise staying in Ireland and performing well in the eLOI is now seen as a viable alternative to playing for a two-bit English club. This is surely good for the league, as is the increased transfer revenue that seems to be kicking in.
Tactically & technically the English style imprints itself on our game, but this was always the case & always will be. Irish teams will never triumph through technical excellence alone but there's no reason why our better technical players can't blend with the more workmanlike to play a high tempo game capable of competing against good opposition.
One big negative has been the star status afforded to Premiership footballers and I think for a while some of our players were affected by this and lost their focus and desire for playing for Ireland. Players like Sean Thornton just lost the plot altogether.
here i see the slight flaw in your theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
big crowds on tv had nothing do with it, you hardly get an atmosphere from that. it was sheer laziness and image-consciousness.
Of course you can pick up an atmosphere on tv. Get over yourself.
Being part of an atmosphere and looking at one on a television are two totally seperate things though.
Sure, but I see attending football and watching it on TV as complementary.
Anyway, we're digressing from the proper debate here. We've all been through this particular part of the debate before.
I would put it down to a combination of all the factors we're talking about here. The Premiership, with its hype, Sky millions, etc, definitely became a larger presence, which obviously affected domestic football. The rise of Man Utd in the early 1990s - always a popular team in Ireland - certainly helped the Premiership's brand over here, as it would have done if Liverpool had gotten their act together. If Blackburn had managed to become a big club on the strength of 1995 or Newcastle or Villa, maybe it wouldn't have become so prevalent. Then there's the obvious lure of cash, which I'm pretty sure was always there for our top players down through the decades. No matter how much a player loves playing for Bohs, Drogheda, etc, not many will turn down his wages shooting from 500 quid a week to 5,000 quid a week. Is there an industry anywhere else where that can happen? A legal industry, anyway? In that context, the EL was always going to lose out to Murdoch's millions.
But the EL should stand up and do what it rarely does - take some responsibility. A lot of these clubs were run terribly by people who probably wouldn't get near any sort of normal commercial enterprise. Not only that but there was no attempt that I can remember to grow the thing until very recently. I grew up in a GAA household but football was always my first game. Despite playing for one of the biggest (numbers-wise) juvenile clubs in the country, I cannot recall one attempt by any EL club to forge links with it (and I still don't know of any). Instead of the odd talented lad I knew wanting to get trials for St. Pats, Rovers, Bohs, etc, they were all queuing up outside Home Farm, Stella Maris and Cherry Orchard, because they would get you to an English club. That, I think, is a huge factor in how the Charlton boom was lost on domestic football, to a degree. More and more people got into soccer but no one seemed to try and keep them in the country.
As for the GAA ban angle, it's fair enough although I'd argue that the GAA was bigger in the first place anyway and given its culture and links to the Church and State, it probably would have stayed that way. Still, it's a fair point but what of rugby? Because of well-worked, professional structural changes (and obviously a blessing of talent), we have one of the best international sides in the world and some well-regarded European teams. The club scene, however, is apparently struggling (which is worrying for a rugby fan, I presume), but the manner in which the IRFU has kept talent in Ireland should be commended. I'm not saying the FAI could pay the wages of Keane, Duff, etc, but the benefit of keeping talent in the country rather than shipping it to the Premiership is obvious. The Premiership would always have ultimately taken our best players but would it have gotten them all so young and discarded 95% of them so quickly if the FAI and EL had had some sort of plan in place?
I know it's an easy dig to take but as with so much of this debate, a lot of it comes down the the IRFU and GAA having their act together and planning for the future over the past 20 years. The result is that both organisations are stronger than ever. The FAI and EL have spent that time squabbling, plotting, filing dodgy accounts, going bankrupt etc. Nice one lads.
Don't think the rugby comparison holds water. As you admit, the club side of things on the rugby front is very week. The 4 provinces are contrived sides and don't play in a national league. As for the international side, there are only a handful of rugby playing nations in the world of any quality so it's not hard to rise to the top. That said, we haven't won the Home nations that often either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donal81
The ease at which cross-border competitions were established to facilitate the contrived provincial "club" teams was a benefit to rugby that Irish football could never have. Rugby across Europe needed root and branch reform and we were able to exploit that.
Football's structures are far longer established and there are too many successful interests to warrant a change in the status quo.
We got in at the ground level when the reforms in rugby were taking place with the introduction of professionalism to the game. Such wide ranging reforms are unlikely in football and, as such, much harder to implement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Of course, we could just continue as we are, standing around complaining nothing is being done, while watching as nothing is done, and complaining again in a year that nothing was done, and so forth
You haven't been in my living room when at important match is on :D, especially with friends in. I find watching on TV more nerve racking than actually being at a game because you don't have the full picture and feel more helpless. I know this has nothing to do with the debate in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
In a nutshell, the Premiership/English football hasn't harmed Irish soccer. The GAA and nationalistic influences meant soccer was never going to succeed in the early days and now it is too late.
A competition based upon county allegiances (splitting Dublin in to two teams, north and south) could possibly generate interest but the vested interests would scupper that. Small Irish clubs will never make an impact just like small rugby clubs. But see what happens when they grow in to Provinces with traditional following.
Wasn't the original question as asking whether the way the Premiership has changed English football has affected the national team, rather than its impact on the popularity of domestic football?
I think the reputation of the domestic game has actually been enhanced, or certainly the perceived quality of the better players has. International caps, respectable transfer fees, moves to decent football clubs and good performances by ex-eLOI players have all been evident.
I think we used to rely on the English game to do almost all of our work for us. I think we've recognised we have to do more of it ourselves. This is one way the changing game in England has affected us.
I wouldn't worry about Steven Ireland because I think he's enough admirers to remain in the premiership. City fans rave about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torn-Ado
However, I would be very worried about some of the other Irish lads at City. I generally believe the old adage "the cream always rises to the surface" but I could really see City spending a pile of money on household names, to the detriment of younger players who may be good enough.
I'd say you were good at the essays at school!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
By vested interest you mean people who actually go out and support Irish football? :confused: Them selfish b*stards!Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
"Vested interests" isn't a pejorative term. It's just a statement of fact that people who have invested a lot of time and effort in to their clubs wouldn't want to see that scuppered by sweeping changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Good point, fair enough. I suppose my main point is that the IRFU had a choice when the game went professional. The initial plan (and I've been told this by people working within the IRFU and provincial organisations) was that the players would follow the soccer route and go and play for the English (or French) clubs, while the IRFU would do its best to build the game locally. They saw fairly quickly that the two couldn't be done and decided that the IRFU, the parent body, would pay the players' wages to keep them in the country and to build the game's profile by making the provinces strong. This, of course, has neglected the clubs, but my main point is that they at least had a plan and followed through with it. The results can be questioned in regard to the club scene but Irish rugby is definitely in a stronger position at home now than it was when the game went professional around 1995, and that is down to (a) a bit of luck with some great players coming through and (b) the strength of the provinces, for which the IRFU deserves the credit.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
My opinion is that it has had a negative effect. My reasoning for this is that the style of English football will not win out with average players. Charlton did his best with it and used the strengths of sides he had, but I think our style of football comes directly from Premiership style (ie run around madly for 90 mins and not focus on ball retention) and that will get you no where. Continental teams play a different style of football (Italians/French/Spanish etc) and I would much rather our players getting more diversity like most of the continental teams.