http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ol/6717793.stm
I tend to agree. Through-out history Liverpool supporters have shamed English football and also near killed the game by getting English football banned.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ol/6717793.stm
I tend to agree. Through-out history Liverpool supporters have shamed English football and also near killed the game by getting English football banned.
No offence but this is a load of ****e. Liverpool are being made scapegoates becuase UEFA messed up the final in Athens. They compare Liverpool to Milan but thats impossible becuase Milan couldn't even fill their allocation. Liverpool took about 45,000 people to Athens. Platini also has a major chip on his shoulder about what Liverpool did at Heysel....he's an arrogant ****.
Pool fans are no saints but worse than Roma, Galatassaray and Lazio to name but a few of the top of my head, let alone the Eastern European countries where racism is rife. Regarding Heysel, that was another **** up by UEFA.The game was played in a ruined stadium. The Italians baited the Liverpool fans who charged at them. Charging at the opposition was a weekly ritual at all grounds in Britian at this time....it could so easily have been any other British club. BTW, in Rome the previous year, Liverpool fans including women and children were attacked by Roma Ultras.
Hillsborough was a **** up by the police. The enquiry found that the police completely lost control.
I've worked in England quite a long time. There is a very anti-scouse feeling across the country. It is related to Liverpool being a predominantly Irish catholic city. The negative stereotypes that they have for scousers are the exact same that they have for the Irish...wild,lazy,emotional,rough,criminal. In fairness, the positive stereotypes that they have for the Scousers are similar also...happy, friendly and a love of song and dance.
I think alot of younger Irish these days are heavilly influenced by the whole Man U - Liverpool rivalry. Yes by all means support an English club, but don't buy into these Scouse/Brummie/Manc/Cockney/Geordie stereotypes.
with 17,000 tickets liverpool took 45,000 and its all Uefa's fault :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
Where do you begin to disect this crap?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
If you have a season ticket, have been to all the games, have booked flights and are then told you can't have a ticket what would you do?
A) Stay at home and watch it on the tele
B) go to Athens in the hope of getting one of thousands of "Nuetral" or "Corporate Partner" tickets.
There is blame to be apportioned to a lot of parties but UEFA are trying to lump all the blame on Liverpool's 45,000 fans and accept no blame for themselves or the local organisers.
Liverpool fans were treated badly compared to the Milan fans. The Milan fans got the main airport in Athens while the Liverpool fans were flown to a tiny airport outside Athens. Apparently, the fans had to wait for a number of hours and it was diabolically organised. This was also the problem outside the stadium. A mate of mine told me that lads who went to the stadium a few hours before kick off were just walking in!!! This might be the fault of the Greeks but ultimately, it is a UEFA run final so they should ensure their events are properly organised, in cities and stadia that can cope with an influx of fans....this situation could just as easily have happended to Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal.
Would these problems have happened outside well run stadia?In my opinion, with such a volume of fans there will always be a number of troublemakers or even ****ed up lads who will do whatever they can to see a game. However, the events should have been dealt with alot better by the Greeks and ultimately UEFA.
A friend of a friend had his ticket stolen outside the ground. He is understandably very angry with his own fans but he told me that the Greek police were the worst he's ever seen. He blames UEFA as much as those that took his ticket.
With a username like Steve Bruce, I take it you're a Man U fan...or an England B fan:o.
By talking about steroetypes, I was trying to paint a background picture. There are many in Britain who love to have a go at scousers and dig up age old stereotypes. They can't see any different. I work in a youth offending team over here and the criminal statistics for Nottingham, Birmingham and Manchester are far higher than Liverpool...yet each week Liverpool and Everton fans get abuse about being thieves:D
Have you ever been to Liverpool?Do you know any scousers?Have you ever lived in England?
or are you one of the newer breed of Man U fans in Ireland that takes on board the Manc/Scouse rivalry as if you were born in Moss Side.
The last time I was home, some Man U fans in my local were singing about scousers being thieves and Heysel(incidentally this lad looked about 17:(,) while the liverpool fans were going on about shipman. it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
[QUOTE=Bungle;698101]
Would these problems have happened outside well run stadia?In my opinion, with such a volume of fans there will always be a number of troublemakers or even ****ed up lads who will do whatever they can to see a game. However, the events should have been dealt with alot better by the Greeks and ultimately UEFA.
QUOTE]
funny how it never happens to the Irish fans , only one troublemaker in Stuttgart out of how many....10,000/15,000!
I'm not comparing the Liverpool fans to the Irish fans. The Irish fans are among the best in the world.
I'm just replying to Steve's assertation that Liverpool fans are the worst in Europe which I believe is incorrect. There are at least 6 London clubs with a worst reputation than Liverpool, Birmingham and Villa have a very bad reputation, Hull City, Pompey, Leeds to name but a few. We haven't even talked about the Red Army yet....what about the English national team fans who have caused mayhem for decades.
Moving outside of England....Rangers fans, Turkish fans, Italian fans, Eastern European fans.
UEFA are just trying to cover over the mistakes they made in Athens. Im not trying to defend the idiots who caused trouble. As I said before I am a season ticket holder, I attended all the CL home games and didnt get a ticket in the ballot, so I didnt travel. However many people look at the CL final like a once in a life time event and feel they have to travel. If your team got to a big european final and you didnt get a ticket from your club, would you travel?
This tag of the worst fans in europe in utter nonsense. If you look at football related arrests per club in England we are well down the pecking order. Clubs like Sheffield Utd, Leeds, Man Utd, Chelsea, Millwall etc still have very active firms. On the european scene some of the european clubs have been forced to play their games behind closed doors due to their fans behaviour. Rangers fans have been banned from europe. Obviously Feyenoord are better than us as well having been kicked out of the UEFA cup for kicking off in nearly every match they participated in.
Its just typical uefa nonsense. Why dont they talk about the tens of thousands of neutral section tickets that were sold on the black market for €1,000+. They really just dont care about fans anymore, its all about the corps.
What is most surprising about the latest comments from Mr Gaillard is that on the eve of the final, he commented that Liverpool supporters 'have a tradition of good behaviour'. All of a sudden were are the worst in europe.
Let's not forget that these same supporters who Mr Gaillard is claiming are now the worst in Europe were praised by Uefa President Michel Platini after our semi-final victory against Chelsea only last month, commended for their behaviour in Istanbul in 2005 and actually honoured by Uefa at a gala dinner in Monte Carlo in 2001 as joint Supporters of the Years with Alves after the UEFA Cup final.
Bit strange me thinks.
Lived in London, Liverpool and Manchester(lived in Manchester for nearly 9 years)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
Moss-side is a rough hole and probably one of the worst crime hit areas. But Again i do not see how this is relevent?
Liverpool have a big long history of European football and Domestic football violence.
Also songs between the two clubs are distasteful. eg the one where Busby and his are lieing in the snow - In reference to the Munich disaster.
List the incidents over the past 10 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
Obviously Feyenoord are better than us as well, having been kicked out of the UEFA cup for kicking off in nearly every match they participated in.
Man Utd have by far the biggest crowds and they are one of the best behaved supporters in England. I'll dig up the league table to prove it.Quote:
Originally Posted by reder
10 years - How convenient.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by reder
Behave yourself. Look at the PL figures. Mancs are one of the top dogs and you know it. As for europe, inside the ground there was trouble in Lille and Roma and trouble outside the ground at OT v Roma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
Here are the 05-06 stats as an example. Stats
Ok extend that timeline to 20 years. Lets see what else you can dig up other than Heysel.
Also isnt it strange that no paper mentions things like the meeting between Olympiakos and Liverpool fans on the day of the game in Athens, where both sets of fans met and exchange banners and flowers and both were laid in respect to the 21 Olympiakos fans who died on February 8th 1981 at Gate 7.
April 2005 against Juventus - Trouble
CL Final this season against Milan - Trouble
Liverpool Supporters attacked Alan Smiths ambulance that was taking him to the hospital(last season)
Just a few things that come to mind off the top of my head. I'm sure I could trawl the internet and give more examples.
Anyway I might be a bit harsh towards liverpool, they aren't the worst. No police officiers got killed like in Italy.
But Liverpool do seem to have quite a few incidents and I think Liverpool should think of ways of stopping people with no tickets from going to away games.
Heysel is was desperate and that on it's own is bad enough. Why should I exclude one of the biggest scum things ever to happen in football?Quote:
Originally Posted by reder
Also the trouble with Lille and Roma was hardly Man Utds fault. I think every one accepts that:rolleyes:
No Civil Liberties for Scousers? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
http://www.guardian.co.uk/footballvi...353991,00.html
quite a bit out dated but it gets across what I am saying about Manchester united. out of 1.04m supporters only 88 arrests where made.
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:r...lnk&cd=3&gl=uk
The league table from a couple of years ago. Obviously Uniteds will be quite high as we get considerably higher attendances than anyone. But in comparison to the amount going to our games our arrest per attendance is one of the lowest in the league.
To be fair Steve you've lived over here. You aren't the Youtube hooligan expert I had you down as:D ....though you are a Man U fan:confused:
Lets be fair, a situation where good fans like Reder can't get a ticket despite being a season ticket holder needs changing. Milan couldn't sell their allocation...but why did these tickets end up back on the black market. I appreciate that not all season ticket holders can get tickets but most of Milan's sent back tickets should have been given to real footy fans like Reder. If Man U reached the final next year and you were in Reder's position you would feel the same. This helped cause the frenzy outside the stadium.
The Red Army were renowned as one of the hardest football firms in Britain. What happened at Heysel was an absolute disgrace and taints Liverpool's reputation...but it could have just as easily been Man U fans that charged at the Juve fans.
The songs about Busby are a disgrace, especially seeing as he was a Liverpool great before the war. However, its tit for tat between both sets of supporters. That doesn't justify it but neither set of fans are better than each other. What happened to Smith was disgusting but if Jamie Carragher's ambulance was outside Old Trafford, would it have been left alone by the peace loving Mancs:D I don't think so.
That's a pile of ****e. Because the stadium was a mess (and it was a disastrous dump), there's an excuse for murdering 39 people? Complete nonsense that's typical of the attitude of many Liverpool fans who couldn't understand the reaction to the 'Amicizia' rubbish at the CL game against Juventus two years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
I don't think Liverpool fans are any worse than anyone else but the continued whitewash of Heysel does them no favours.
1000% Spot OnQuote:
Originally Posted by Schumi
I'm not defending Heysel. The fact is that the stadium wasn't fit to host a European Cup final.If it had been, nobody would have died in my opinion.
The Juve fans had been throwing bricks at the Liverpool fans and they charged at them. Charging was common practice at that time in British football. Both sets of fans were bricking each other. Where did they get the bricks? Prior to the game, Liverpool expressed major concern about the stadium. I also recall the BBC journalists saying the same thing on the day.
Jesus WeptQuote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
Nowadays of course British football has banished charging through walls and replaced it with charging through the roof! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
I blame the bricks, they're a bad influence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
Certainly I do agree there should have been more tickets and it's ashame many season ticket holders didn't get a ticket but that doesn't excuse robbing off there own fans, storming the stadium etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
But lets not forget that not only where UEFA and Liverpool fans at fault. So where Liverpool FC. The reason for this is you had only 17,000 tickets and Liverpool GAVE 6,000 to Corporate people. Maybe Liverpool FC should think about the amount they allocate to non-supporters as well.
There are many questions to be asked about the organisation of this, which I do agree was a shambles.(even though I think Liverpool supporters have to shoulder a lot of the blame)
In regards to season ticket holders not being able to get tickets. There has to be some sort of system where the supporters who travel get first preference.
The reason for this is because Man Utd has 65,000+ Season ticket holders. There isn't a stadium in the world where all 65,000 could get tickets so there has to be some sort of system to sort this out(which is currently there I believe). So although it's frustrating for a lot of Season ticket holders, unfortunately that's the price you pay for supporting a well supported club.
When exactly did this "murder" take place. Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Schumi
Excellent post. Steve Bruce has hit on a piece of this whole saga that seems to have been lost amidst all the uefa and Liverpool fans issues. Rick Parry and they club pretty much encouraged fans to travel ticketless. Instead of saying "If you dont have a ticket dont travel", he came out with a statement along the lines of "No matter what our fans will get the ticket and we will have 40,000 in the ground, just like Istanbul". I think this was a really irresponsible statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
As Steve said, the "Liverpool family" got 6,000. Each of the 1st team squad players got 50 each, the staff and people with even the most slender link to the club got tickets (EG. a guy who did a small amount of work on the website I know of, got a 4 tickets.) Far less than 10,000 of the 17,000 tickets actually went to proper fans at the end of the day.
In summataion, for one second I would not condone the actions of those liverpool "fans" who robbed tickets and charged into the ground. If we could get rid of people like them from the club, I would forefit winning any trophy for the next 5 years but this title of the "Worst fans in Europe" is utter rubbish when you compare us to the Italians, turks, Feyenoord of this continent.
To be fair, I being a WUM about this. You really couldn't compare any english club with the Turks, Italians and Feyenord.Quote:
Originally Posted by reder
Here is a well balanced piece on the whole thing. It admits we have our bad elements but put things into context.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheap shot from a cowardly crew
5th June 2007
Des Kelly
The Daily Mail
Hand me a felt pen. If UEFA want to tag Liverpool fans as the worst in Europe then it is only right they should be rewarded for this lazy insult with a cheap label of their own. And here it is: "The biggest cowards in football."
See how easy it is to throw insults around? Stung by criticism of the ticketing arrangements and chaotic crowd control at the Champions League Final in Athens, Michel Platini's administration has proved to be astonishingly unstatesmanlike with its response.
Rather than examine the problems like a sensible governing body should, UEFA decided to stamp their feet, squeal "it's so unfair!" and trot out deliberately sensationalist claptrap to try to divert attention elsewhere.
The communications director of European football, William Gaillard, actually said this about the followers of Liverpool: "What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children?"
Dunno William. But a few, I'd guess. Even if a couple of kids did have their tickets robbed on the night, let's compare this sensationalist, unsubstantiated and, frankly, silly accusation with some of the crimes that have been perpetrated by the followers of a few other teams across Europe recently.
I'm thinking specifically about the murder of a policeman at an Italian stadium when a homemade bomb blew up in his face.
Then there was the French gendarme almost killed by German thugs. The routine and quite blatant racism at some Spanish and Eastern European grounds, a blight that UEFA have feebly failed to tackle.
The tendency of the Roman riot squad to beat visiting supporters senseless for no obvious reason. The attack on a referee in Denmark this week. I could go on.
When judged against that pile of paperwork sitting in UEFA's file marked "Trouble", I'd say snatching a ticket from some nipper might rank as a relatively minor offence. But Gaillard appears peculiarly keen to hype up any English problem.
He adds: "There have been 25 incidents involving Liverpool fans away from home since 2003 and these are in the report. Most teams' supporters do not cause any trouble at all."
This is an interesting claim.
William has obviously never tried to slip away from a Lazio game while trying to avoid the inconvenience of a sharp blade in the buttock.
Nor can he have danced through the streets of Marseilles as residents added a splash of local colour by throwing bottles.
But what about those 25 incidents said by UEFA to involve Liverpool over the past four years? We await the details.
English football will have the chance to verify the substance of these charges when the "undercover report" is handed to Sports Minister Richard Caborn today.
If many prove to be as minor as his ticket- snatching accusation then Gaillard had better look out. His job is in jeopardy, or at least it should be.
Particularly as he made this rather contradictory pronouncement before the Champions League Final: "The two groups of supporters have a tradition of good behaviour and at this point we are expecting that to continue."
A tradition of good behaviour or the worst in Europe? He just can't make his mind up. Perhaps William is just overwrought and in need of a lie down in a darkened room. For 20 years or so.
Let me make one thing clear. Nobody in their right mind doubts Liverpool fans were partly to blame for the disturbances in Athens.
Too many turned up without tickets, some tried to bribe, fake, cheat and steal their way into the ground, even if it meant that a fellow supporter would lose their own legitimate place.
Sadly, like all big clubs, Liverpool has its fair share of scumbags. It also has more than its reasonable quota of people who believe it is their divine right to see the game by whatever means possible.
This is not a new phenomenon. As the crowds hustled towards the old Wembley 18 years ago, I watched one ticketless Liverpool fan vault over the barrier and make a run for it.
Three more were busy scrambling up the outside wall, attempting to break in through the stairwell above.
I vividly remember these scenes even now for one particular reason.
It happened at the FA Cup Final on Saturday, May 20, 1989. Thirty five days after Hillsborough.
With the emotional wounds of that day still horribly raw for so many people, it seemed inconceivable to me that a few would be so selfish when Merseyside was gathering to offer its respects.
I was amazed at their stupidity, their insensitivity. But it would have been ridiculous and lazy to talk about "Liverpool fans shaming the club".
It was one knot of irresponsible idiots, cretins who were completely unrepresentative of the mood of the city.
Yet, spin forward nearly two decades and UEFA believe they are justified in using the same kind of warped logic to damn an entire club. Why? Because they must know they are at least as culpable for the problems and want to shift the blame.
UEFA's distribution of the tickets was woefully inadequate, creating an unprecedented demand. The stadium itself was ill-equipped to handle such a high-profile event - it had no turnstiles for starters.
The policing and security was said by most observers to be haphazard at best, panicked and belligerent at worst.
In this kind of environment, no wonder chaos reigned; no wonder fans with tickets found they were excluded; no wonder some cheats tried to exploit this lack of order.
Milan didn't even sell their ticket allocation. Just imagine the scenario if two English clubs had made the final and Manchester United had played Liverpool instead?
Cheap as they were, the effects of Gaillard's remarks are potentially catastrophic. With one sloppy, stupid statement he has increased the temperature right across Europe.
Supporters from Liverpool or any other English club travelling abroad can now expect to be met by an even greater level of hostility, to be herded and detained like cattle, baton-charged, penned in and locked in their coaches or trains.
Good or bad, it doesn't matter. Liverpool fans are "the worst". English fans are the "worst". So they 'deserve' what they get.
Sometimes it's true. But not always and UEFA are spineless if they hide behind insults instead of dealing with the real issues.
[QUOTE=reder;698518]Here is a well balanced piece on the whole thing. It admits we have our bad elements but put things into context....
[QUOTE]
There's not much I can disagree with there
Are you saying that Liverpool's hooligans accidently killed the 38 Italians (and one Irish man)Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadend
Jesus H Christ man shut up would you, you're actually lowering the tone of an already bargain basement discussionQuote:
Originally Posted by Roadend
Some forumer came out and said clearly that one set of fans murdered another.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
As I said, it was already a bargain basement discussion before you chipped in defending Liverpool's actions that night under a guise of being upset at the term 'murder'. All that matters about Heysel is that because of the actions of a large section of Liverpool supporters that night 39 people ae no longer with us, thats all, whether murder is a harsh term or not is missing the point entirelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Roadend
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
I can see this getting closed soon... :o
It's true that the club and fans are under the table about what happened at Heysel, but should you admit to looking at, or be seen with a copy of a certain newspaper that wrote incomprehensible rubbish about another disaster many years ago, that's much more important. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Schumi
And before some go off on a rant about how awful the paper is, and what it printed; we've read it all before, so we don't have to again.
The greek police have confirmed that some individuals forced themselves into the stadium using fraudulent means.... Kewell and Zendan being the worst offenders.:p
i had to