What do we expect?

Hello all, Where did it all go wrong there is so much negativity by some posters on this site its sad to see that people can be so deluded as to think we have a quality team out main stay of

Given
finnan Dunne O shea harte

Duff Reid(if fit) Carsley/Ireland Kilbane

Keane Doyle

Roughly is ok but would you have more than three of them in your dream team (no). We are an average side as we have proven recently no better no worse just average and its sad to say because I want us to be exceptional I want to be proud of my national team. Long gone are the days where the players put on the shirt and that pride would give them the extra 10-15% to perform at present it seems to have the opposite effect. We lack a passion, a spine, a backbone and a leader on and off the pitch. Lads lets not fool ourselves we look at past glories and the fighting Irish spirit I haven’t seen that in a long time and Im not sure we will for the foreseeable future. It ****es me right off but I cant see it changing but the bottom line is play with some pride at least, show some balls when your playing for your Country and stop putting in those limp wristed half hearted performances that you wouldnt see in the sunday league football

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Originally Posted by irishbaz

...Where did it all go wrong ...

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Saipan, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Saipan, in my opinion.

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Ah Jaysus no, not again.

We might have been better off not going to Japan in a way. It caused more problems than it solved. We (a) had the bust up (b) maybe sowed seeds of doubt that we couldn't kill a game off (Spain) (c) off the back of the World Cup started a terrible Euro 2004 campaign, which resulted in McCarthy's dismissal. Blaming Saipan is a fair call, but maybe there were problems from the World Cup as well

Where has the passion gone Staunton as a player was full of passion but it doesn’t seem to be rubbing off on the players. At least after the Saipan incident there was still some passion left in the teams performances what gets on my nerves is that these professionals don’t seem to be to bothered about playing fro there Country. They look as though they can’t wait to get back to England to their nice lifestyles as opposed to bursting their balls for there Country

I think that we have good enough players to scare teams and compete for a place in the Euro finals. If you look at teams around Europe who qualify regularly like Sweden, Denmark, Czech republic etc. They have much the same players as us competing in Europes top leagues.

We definetely have players to beat teams ranked less than 83rd in world in proper competition. Its all about leadership, confidence and desire. Exactly what none of this team has. Thats rather sad to be honest.

From the perspective of this supporter of a team whose fortunes are presently going in the opposite direction, I think some of you are confusing passion (or desire) with conviction (belief).

Many of the ROI players who appear to be dispassionate when playing for their country these days were hardly lacking in passion a few years back. And as a player, no-one could ever have criticised Staunton on that count, so I'm sure he doesn't care any less now that he's manager.

However, it's hard to maintain your passion if, deep down, you fear (or even know?) that passion isn't going to be enough. It seems to me that due to lack of leadership both on and off the field, and the obvious deficiencies in Staunton's selections, tactics and motivational skills, half the team or more is going out expecting to get beaten. And when the conviction goes, the "passion" soon follows. Next to go will likely be the pride demonstrated e.g. in the game against the Czechs (i.e. following the Cyprus embarrassment). And finally, if things don't improve, the danger is that players will simply not turn up for international duty at all.

Looking back, people always said Jack Charlton's teams were dangerous opponents because they were so "passionate". I'm inclined to believe that this was doing him (and his team) a disservice. It was at least equally the case (imo) that they were passionate because they were dangerous! It might not have been pretty, but Charlton seized on a set of tactics which suited his players and discomforted the type of opponent routinely faced in international competition.
Consequently, when his players took to the field, they were not discouraged by the fact that man-for-man the opposition might be "better" players; rather they drew conviction and reassurance from the fact that they had a system, and the players to operate it, which could still allow them to beat the odds. That in turn inspired them regularly to put in displays full of spirit, passion and pride.

yeah pretty good assesment of the charlton era....
maybe the croker factor might give us two results on the trot and a bit of self belief and confidance.
altho I still think that we could be in for a potential hiding against the slovakians. they are just the type of team that we might underestimate and a good win agaisnt wales might give us the feeling we have turned corner a la the czech game only to be brought down to earth.
altho obviously please god they bottle it like their neighbours did....

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Originally Posted by Torn-Ado

I think that we have good enough players to scare teams and compete for a place in the Euro finals. If you look at teams around Europe who qualify regularly like Sweden, Denmark, Czech republic etc. They have much the same players as us competing in Europes top leagues.
We definetely have players to beat teams ranked less than 83rd in world in proper competition. Its all about leadership, confidence and desire. Exactly what none of this team has. Thats rather sad to be honest.

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Their players compete in leagues all around europe. Ours compete in the premiership (with the exception of Ian Harte). Now while the premiership is undoubtedly one of the top leagues, our player mix is hardly as cosmopolitan as some of those other smaller nations you refer to.

Also, according to wikipedia, two of the three nations you mention have a population more than twice that if ireland's. Denmark's is larger too, but about 25%.

Countries we should be on a par with (population wise) are the likes of moldova, georgia, croatia, norway, finland (five above us in europe), bosnia, lithuania, albania, armenia and latvia (five below us in europe). Hardly worldbeaters.

I have to questin people that claim we are an average team.We are well above average players wise in my opinion. When i look at what our best 11(IMO) is like when injury free i think we are definly in the top 15 in Europe


Given-Worldclass
Finnan-Worldclass, though rarely shows it for us
Dunne-Best defender outside of the big 4 in England barring Woodgate
McShane-Problem position but the guy has potential
J.O'Brien-Excellent with Bolton last year and will defily be a big player for us
Duff-Had worldclass abilites but fading fast due to lack of ambition
S.Reid-Excellent last season, even man United were interested
Carsley-Decent player who adds a lot to Everton.
MCGeady/Reid-Both have great skilland on their day can do anything
Doyle-Potential to be massive
Keane-Horrendous attitude but he has got it all

This to me is an excellent side and worlds away from what Scotland or the Welsh for example could choose. Throw in subs like Stokes, Ireland etc. I feel that the squad available know is stronger than anyone McCarthy had. McCarthy had to start with Mcateer when he was rotting in the Blackburn reserves and also relied a lot on Gary Breen. BUT McCarthy was able to get the best out of each player. A trait Staunton severly lacks. And im not a McCarthy fan by the way

I don't think the importance of team organisation can be underplayed. We have a better pick of players than what Sweden has yet we are nowhere near as competitive a team as they are when push comes to shove. It's all down to their organisation.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

maybe the croker factor might give us two results on the trot and a bit of self belief and confidance.

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Aye, but which Croker Factor, Bill? The one which inspired the Irish rugby team to demolish England, or the one which caused them to freeze for the first half against France?

And I think it would be a mistake to overlook the effect of the Croker Factor on the opposition. It clearly didn't disconcert or inhibit the French rugby team in any way; perhaps it even lifted them to an extent?

With the football, those Welsh players who have played in similarly big matches are unlikely to be rattled, whilst their "lesser" players might even be inspired to play in such a great stadium, in front of a huge crowd?

It's events like these which test the ability of managers to judge the atmosphere and lift or calm their players, as appropriate. In that respect, Staunton hasn't cut it so far, whilst Toshack, who has previously managed some of the biggest events in world football (e.g. Real Madrid vs Barca), has yet to do it consistently when managing Wales.

[QUOTE=EalingGreen;632133]With the football, those Welsh players who have played in similarly big matches are unlikely to be rattled, whilst their "lesser" players might even be inspired to play in such a great stadium, in front of a huge crowd?QUOTE]

Very true.....we all know how the atmosphere can be when the roof is closed in the millenium stadium. Honestly i feel that Ireland will win though, but they will be very very close....

We have to well and truly stuff them and leave no room for doubt that we can comfortably beat a 5th seeded team at home. Carsley, our hod carrier, to be man of the match.

You have to accept we have and average team with three exceptions

Given-World-class
I totally agree and the problem is we have nobody to replace him (fact)

Finnan-World-class, though rarely shows it for us
He is a solid player but not world class and very rarely shows it for Ireland which makes him a problem Liverpool were looking at Lucas Neil for gods sake

Dunne-Best defender outside of the big 4 in England barring Woodgate
I agree

McShane-Problem position but the guy has potential
But still not proven

J.O'Brien-Excellent with Bolton last year and will defily be a big player for us

Not at present therefore a problem
Duff-Had world-class abilities but fading fast due to lack of ambition
One of the players that really just cant be bothered

S.Reid-Excellent last season, even man United were interested
Not at present so still a problem

Carsley-Decent player who adds a lot to Everton.
Decent but average player but no spring chicken

MCGeady/Reid-Both have great skilland on their day can do anything

[B] unproven players what have they done that makes them stand out as class Reids big money move to spurs broke down and now he plays for Charlton not one big team cam in for him when spurs were selling him and Im sure those scouts could spot at least the potential. Mc Geady has the potential but is still unproven[/B

Doyle-Potential to be massive
I totally agree
Keane-Horrendous attitude but he has got it all
Yip but is not a world class goal scorer he’s a good second striker
a problem

I think we have to stop putting these guys on pedestals and comparing most of them as world class its just not the case what you would hope is that they gel as a team and those few world class players drag the less talented ones up but at present the opposite is happening- play for the jersey lads and I for one would have a lot more respect for you

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Originally Posted by irishbaz

Finnan-World-class, though rarely shows it for us
He is a solid player but not world class and very rarely shows it for Ireland which makes him a problem Liverpool were looking at Lucas Neil for gods sake

Duff-Had world-class abilities but fading fast due to lack of ambition
One of the players that really just cant be bothered

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He was hardly in for Neil to replace Finnan. Finnan is one of the best full backs in Europe when it comes to marking and defending. He also puts in quality crosses.

Duff doesn't try? Come on, jesus.

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Originally Posted by irishbaz

Finnan-World-class, though rarely shows it for us
He is a solid player but not world class and very rarely shows it for Ireland which makes him a problem Liverpool were looking at Lucas Neil for gods sake

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Look at the players that have come into Liverpool over the last few seasons to be backup to Finnan and had to leave when they couldn't get ahead of him. When Finnan went to Liverpool, Carragher was the right full, he was dropped to accomodate Finnan before moving to centre half.
Neil was going to be brought in to replace Hyppia, not Finnan.

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Originally Posted by irishbaz

Hello all, Where did it all go wrong there is so much negativity by some posters on this site its sad to see that people can be so deluded as to think we have a quality team...

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It's not so much delusion as being ****ed off that we were hammered by Cyprus and struggled to beat San Marino. These things shouldn't happen, regardless of the quality of the "current crop".

Sure, similar things have happened before (I remember Frank Stapleton's 92nd minute goal to clinch victory agains mighty Malta a few years ago, and wasn't there a draw agains Leichtenstein in a WC qualifier?), but these were freakish occurrences.

What's worrying right now is the potential for that kind of embarrassment every time we play a small team.

Does Stan realise that more than 90% of fans want him gone right now?

To me, I think that ALL (bar Harte) our players play in England is a big factor. This is not the 1970s/80s/90s. Look at other countries, they have players all over the map. Different styles lead to different ideas. Playing 100% english based players becomes stale.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Aye, but which Croker Factor, Bill? The one which inspired the Irish rugby team to demolish England, or the one which caused them to freeze for the first half against France?

And I think it would be a mistake to overlook the effect of the Croker Factor on the opposition. It clearly didn't disconcert or inhibit the French rugby team in any way; perhaps it even lifted them to an extent?
.

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AFAIR France failed to score for something like an hour at croker....hardly inspired...I think wales are as poor a team as us. Its the slovakians who will give us trouble.

Any negativity I feel is not directed at the quality of our playing pool. As the saying goes you have to have the serenity to accept what you can't change. My negativity is about everything else surrounding the Senior team. The inconsistencies. The Non commital comments. The disregard fo the Media as a medium to us as fans. The apparent lack of acountability in the set up.

"He was hardly in for Neil to replace Finnan. Finnan is one of the best full backs in Europe when it comes to marking and defending. He also puts in quality crosses."

What I am saying about Finnan is that he has not made the step up at International level I have never once watched him for Ireland and thought jesus this guy is world class

"Duff doesn't try? Come on, jesus"

Again I am not saying this over the lenght of his career what I am saying is when he first stepped up to international level he would take your breath away with his level of commitment and skill but again I havnt seen that for a while both at international level and club level where he puts in the odd good performance.

"It's not so much delusion as being ****ed off that we were hammered by Cyprus and struggled to beat San Marino. These things shouldn't happen, regardless of the quality of the "current crop".

I agree completly it shouldnt happen but it is happening and Im saying its for three or four reasons

1. The manager is to inexperienced and is unable to pick and tailor his team to the oposition we are facing, he appears to have an inability to motivate and a complete lack of insight about football in pre and post match interviews

2. The players have lost a spark but they still have a responsibility to perform and they just have not stepped up o the plate those world class players have not performed

3. The FAI appear to accept average and that is infectious


I am ****ed off but the reality is our world ranking doesnt lie and recent performances have showed this

I agree Saipan is the turning point of Irish footbal. It reminds me a bit of the British Conservative Party after they got rid of Thatcher. The wounds never healed and they had a decade of infighting even though many of the people involved at the end were not involved in the beginning. There is a real sense of conflict around the squad.

I read someone in the Irish Times yesterday saying the rugby team are the new Boys in Green and I wonder how long it will take us to get back to where we were.

What I defintiely don't agree with is that this is a much weaker squad than we've had in the past. I would say we have fewer world class players but on the other hand we have more top flight players. We wouldnt have to play the Tommy Coyne/Alan Kernagahans today. There's no reason to expect we will have better players in the future.

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Originally Posted by irishbaz

"Duff doesn't try? Come on, jesus"

Again I am not saying this over the lenght of his career what I am saying is when he first stepped up to international level he would take your breath away with his level of commitment and skill but again I havnt seen that for a while both at international level and club level where he puts in the odd good performance.

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It certainly has nothing to do with the effort he's putting in.

This is what stan should play IMO

Dont want to see O'Shea, Harte, or Kilbane near the team....

....................Given

Finnan.......McShane....Dunne....Geary

McGeady....Carsley.......Ireland....Duff

..............Doyle...........Keane

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Originally Posted by citizenerased

This is what stan should play IMO

Dont want to see O'Shea, Harte, or Kilbane near the team....

....................Given

Finnan.......McShane....Dunne....Geary

McGeady....Carsley.......Ireland....Duff

..............Doyle...........Keane

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To be honest the only decent game I've seen us play recently was against the Czechs and that was with 5 in midfield which, unfortunately, would mean that Doyle or Keane would miss out. Would also mean we could accommodate McGeady Duff and A. Reid/S. Ireland in the midfield (Carsley and S.Reid to anchor would be ideal), at least this would bring a bit of stability to the midfield which is where we're at our weakest imho...

Will Andy Reid be back for the Wales game?

yknow i wish some people would lay off kilbane. he is a limited player that gives 100% each and every time for his country. he scored against the czechs, scored against SM, put in 2 pin point crosses for 2 goals against SM.

cant comment on cyprus or germany as missed those games.
O'shea doesnt have half the heart or desire kilbane has so totally agree there but there are so many people out there that ridicule Kilbane and make him an unfair personal scapegoat for appaling performances.

No doubt O'shea deserves it though.

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Originally Posted by cavan_fan

We wouldnt have to play the Tommy Coyne/Alan Kernagahans today. There's no reason to expect we will have better players in the future.

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100% true. Jack played more donkeys in his various teams than we could ever hope to find today. Kernaghan, Cascerino (shi*e - look at his club record at decent levels als the only player I ever seen who couldn't kick a ball), Morris, Coyne, Babb, Alan Kelly etc. But we also had some top class players that kept us going. I think talent wise our squad today is as good as any Mick had and Jack before him in the last couple of years.

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Originally Posted by as_i_say

O'shea doesnt have half the heart or desire kilbane has so totally agree there but there are so many people out there that ridicule Kilbane and make him an unfair personal scapegoat for appaling performances.

No doubt O'shea deserves it though.

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Also 100% agree. Why is everyone making sense on this thread? Never happens.

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Originally Posted by irishbaz

I think we have to stop putting these guys on pedestals and comparing most of them as world class its just not the case

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You have it right, it is a very poor set of players, in comparison to what we have in the past.

Shakey central defence, hanging our hats on a young lad who can't even get his (CB position) place at a Championship level team. Played out of position, so will be prone to errors. Now we are shouting like mad for a young lad at Celtic. This really depicts the poor state of affairs.

FBs - barely a threat. Also Finnan can't get forward cos he can't rely on anyone else to provide decent cover. Certainly not the midfield. Think of what we had with the likes of Irwin.

Midfield - Powder puff, The worst of Keane, Townsend, Holland, Kinsella, McAteer would look a world beater now.

Attack - Weak, very limited since Quinn has retired. Combinations have been unimpressive to say the least. Hopeless.

Goal - Poor cover in recent games when Given was unavailable.

Manager: Not worth commenting on.

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Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

You have it right, it is a very poor set of players, in comparison to what we have in the past.

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compared to the players Mick McCarthy had to work with for the majority of his tenure (Keane excepted) I think the current squad is far superior