League of Ireland Supporters Group

Lads, given that both National League United and National League Supporters Association* have both not evolved into the kind of supporters grouping that is required for the League of Ireland (LOI), can we look at what has prevented them from getting off the ground.

I dont want to want to criticise anyones efforts here, but just look at the practicing problems that were realised in setting these groups up and getting them active to the point where they were a meaningful resource for LOI supporters. I am involved in CCOSC and i know what is involved in getting a club active, and i fully understand that this would be on a much bigger scale. I think that is something that people need to realise as well, so i'd urge people to given constructive suggestions to this topic.

• What do supporters need for a LOI Supporters Club?
• What would supporters like to see happen with a LOI Supporters Club?
• Compared with other National Supporters, what can actually be achieved?
• What is the best way to work out what a LOI Supporters Clubs mandate should be so that it can represent all supporters/members

Lads, i dont want this to turn into a tit for tat battle of who did/didn't do what or to start pointing the finger.

* At least i think so anyway

I always thought a way to do a National Supporters Group would involve the established Club Supporters groups all coming together and electing a "High Council", which would be a voice for all groups, rather than start and try and evolve a new grouping from scratch. But I rarely involve myself in supporters groups so I dont really know :)

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Originally Posted by Gareth

I always thought a way to do a National Supporters Group would involve the established Club Supporters groups all coming together and electing a "High Council", which would be a voice for all groups, rather than start and try and evolve a new grouping from scratch. But I rarely involve myself in supporters groups so I dont really know :)

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But you'd recognise the need for one yeah?

Not massively. Unless your really eager to get yourself some Ireland tickets.

What he's talking about is a group to look after the interests of LOI fans!

Yeah I assumed in the past that was interests regards International tickets? :)

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Originally Posted by Gareth

Not massively. Unless your really eager to get yourself some Ireland tickets.

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While its good that a group can do that for Irish Supporters, its actually got nothing to do with this league. I hate saying that, its just my own opinion, i much prefer supporting LOI, and i'm indifferent about National team at this stage. Maybe because we see LOI players getting subbed all the time this contributes to the apathy but thats just the way it is.

There is so much that can be/needs to be done for LOI Supporters, maybe the Irish tickets thing is detracting from the group purpose.

Theres a question, should the LOI Supporters group focus on representing LOI Supporters, Irish Supporters or both?

Personally i think it should just focus on LOI Supporters issues first.

What are the issues facing LOI supporters?? I would have thought most issues fans would have would be with their clubs.

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Originally Posted by Gareth

What are the issues facing LOI supporters?? I would have thought most issues fans would have would be with their clubs.

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Straight of the bat, communication. The old eircom League is now defunct and there is a brand new league there in its place and not one have knew what was going on. I'm not referring to issues that were yet to be decided or were ongoing all the time, i'm saying the whole process. Posters on here are fairly well informed on all league related issues at the best of times but big and large fans hadn't a clue what was going on.

Collaboration, supporters club are fairly resourceful groups when they get going, and a resource that would, i'd imagine would be readily available if it were in the leagues interest. The league has never once in all my time supporting this league used fans in anyway shape or form (correct me if i am wrong). That in my opinion is a waste of a resource, a league starved of resources.

Alan Hunter needs replacing too :p

Like i said, what do LOI fans want from a united LOI supporters group?

If what you're talking about is a kind of umbrella supporters' club, to augment what individual clubs' SCs do, then I'd say you're looking at the same general objectives - taking Independent Saints as an example, our objectives when we set it up were fairly simple:
1. To represent the interests of fans, in terms of facilities, communication with the club, etc.
2. To assist the development of the club.
Both these would apply equally for any new umbrella group operating at a League level. It'd be nice to think of a supporters' representative on the League's board of managment or whatever, but realistically I can't see that happening - on grounds of impracticality (how do you elect someone from across all the clubs?) and implausability (who'd be daft enough to actually volunteer for such a role?)

I.S. ended up getting involved in organising travel to away games as well, though this wasn't one of the original objectives.

I'd actually be inclined to leave international tickets out of it for the time being as it has the potential for becoming an all-consuming distraction. And anyway, I can't exactly see demand exceeding supply for the games in Croke Park, not after the San Marino muppetry.

When I mentioned international tickets it was tongue in cheek as I thought it was the only reason a body even existed before :)

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Originally Posted by Gareth

When I mentioned international tickets it was tongue in cheek as I thought it was the only reason a body even existed before :)

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Well it was really - the NLSA morphed out of Delaney cutting tickets. NLU came about to fight the Wimbledon to Dublin. Once those issues have been sorted then the groups petered out. The problem is, people will rally around a particular cause, but is there the will for an ongoing organisation? Very recent history with the NLSA would suggest that there wasn't really the will among the fans to really get behind a national organisation.

Are there enough independent (in name and spirit) to really have some kind of national body elected from there?

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Originally Posted by Macy

Very recent history with the NLSA would suggest that there wasn't really the will among the fans to really get behind a national organisation.

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Maybe there is now but at the start there was great enthusiasm and anticipation at the start, and it wasn't just for tickets either.

I know there were a few in Cork looking to see if meetings were on the same weekend we had games there so we could get to them. There was a great buzz there at the start. I know i had list multiple issues that needed addressing very far removed from Ireland tickets.

I always thought that it should be a lobby group so effect change, not just with the FAI but with Dept. of Sports, Arts and Tourism etc.

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Originally Posted by Gareth

I always thought a way to do a National Supporters Group would involve the established Club Supporters groups all coming together and electing a "High Council", which would be a voice for all groups, rather than start and try and evolve a new grouping from scratch.

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I believe that would be the best approach but how do you decide who gets represented? Should it only be official supporters groups that be aligned?

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Originally Posted by pete

I believe that would be the best approach but how do you decide who gets represented? Should it only be official supporters groups that be aligned?

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I remember (and before anyone attacks me I was not involved in the NLSA) that getting a Shels supporters club signed up was a problem for the NLSA. They left a sort of dual membership open for both clubs and individuals.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

I remember (and before anyone attacks me I was not involved in the NLSA) that getting a Shels supporters club signed up was a problem for the NLSA. They left a sort of dual membership open for both clubs and individuals.

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I think it should be open to whoever, anyone that is willing to help out should be left help out.

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Originally Posted by A face

I think it should be open to whoever, anyone that is willing to help out should be left help out.

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That part of the problem. Even though you're right in that, your hypothetical organisation already loses strength for every club that's not represented. I don't think any Shamrock Rovers supporter club was signed up either in spite of the fact that NY Hoop was actively involved (could be wrong on that though). Another problem I think was that no one actually turned up to the public meetings held by the NLSA showing a general lack of interest.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

That part of the problem. Even though you're right in that, your hypothetical organisation already loses strength for every club that's not represented. I don't think any Shamrock Rovers supporter club was signed up either in spite of the fact that NY Hoop was actively involved (could be wrong on that though). Another problem I think was that no one actually turned up to the public meetings held by the NLSA showing a general lack of interest.

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Well, it could only represent the people who want to be represented. No point in beating yourself over supporters who dont want in, ideally you'd only have supporters who are signing up whole heartedly. The remainder, its their loss really, not being dismissive here or anything but you can be expected to chase people to sign up.

The public meetings, i was trying to get to them but just couldn't manage it with work. I only ever heard about two meetings and one was very short notice.

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Originally Posted by A face

I think it should be open to whoever, anyone that is willing to help out should be left help out.

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I should really just be a representative group that can present itself to the FAI & media professionally. Supporters clubs that represented appoint a delegate. However does a group that represents hundreds of supports get same reprsentation as ne with 5 fans?

What about Independent Saints, the SEI and Pats For Richmond, would we get one each? :D

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Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub

What about Independent Saints, the SEI and Pats For Richmond, would we get one each? :D

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or Pats No 2 , the secret, truly independent, underground organisation :)

People seem to be staying very quiet on this one.

Lads, what do people think a Supporters group should do, what would you like to see happening? Or does everyone think that every think is just dandy?

One thing i'd like to see happen is the group to investigate what actually happened when Sky were just given free reign to broadcast in Ireland to the cost of the domestic league and all for the installation of a few flood lights. I'd like to see a stage where this could be contested.

Also RTE, the National Broadcaster, who take an ever increasing licence fee from the public and completely ignore its pledge to the Irish public to act as a National Broadcaster. Not only do we have competition from Sky, but also the National Broadcaster, a group we have entrusted to work in our own interests. Two huge hurdles faced by Irish football today.

Are LOI Supporters happy with their lot from the FAI?

Having been through this with NLU, the greatest problem is general apathy. It's easy to get a handful or more active when there's something major going on (a la Wimbledon), but the rest of the time it's three blokes talking to each other in a vacuum.
I would suggest that those who are active fans at various clubs should form a loose, league-wide alliance, whereby information, advice and ideas can be gathered, offered and discussed on an informal basis, with a more formal gathering of the clans when it's required, and perhaps an annual or six-monthly general meeting/bonding session built around, say, an international game.
It's important that the fan dynamic is included, to some degree, in the new league set-up as it moves forward. Fan culture is a crucial element of the game and the best way for the corporate entity to understand the fans and what they do is by engaging with them on that basis.
But it's up to the fans to stop moaning and get the ball rolling.

unfortunatley the senior football set-up in this country is all wrong. people come together to form a supporters group, come up with all sorts of good ideas etc etc . only to get frustrated by the powers that be ;either FAI or the admin at clubs. plus those representing a club in such an organsiation can be berated from other supporters of their club claiming those reps are not representative of the clubs fans.

el football is mired in polictics and allegiances that stem from the bad old days. those in power have to want to hear from supporters. feck all people in football admin are active supporters of el clubs. a guy like john delaney isnt going to listen to people that he probably thinks are inferior to him.

it would be great if something could get going but i cant ever see it. for all peoples goodwill and giving of time, they end up frustrated and invariably disappear off the scene. the majority are willing to let the few do all the work so it's no surprising most supporter set-up's go by the wayside.

unless football in this country goes brankrupt ; supporters wont be asked for their opinons. majority of people only listen to supporters when they have to.

anyway after all that spiel ; a supporters organisation like you propose will never work in this country as things stand.

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Originally Posted by neutrino

unfortunatley the senior football set-up in this country is all wrong. people come together to form a supporters group, come up with all sorts of good ideas etc etc . only to get frustrated by the powers that be ;either FAI or the admin at clubs. plus those representing a club in such an organsiation can be berated from other supporters of their club claiming those reps are not representative of the clubs fans.

el football is mired in polictics and allegiances that stem from the bad old days. those in power have to want to hear from supporters. feck all people in football admin are active supporters of el clubs. a guy like john delaney isnt going to listen to people that he probably thinks are inferior to him.

it would be great if something could get going but i cant ever see it. for all peoples goodwill and giving of time, they end up frustrated and invariably disappear off the scene. the majority are willing to let the few do all the work so it's no surprising most supporter set-up's go by the wayside.

unless football in this country goes brankrupt ; supporters wont be asked for their opinons. majority of people only listen to supporters when they have to.

anyway after all that spiel ; a supporters organisation like you propose will never work in this country as things stand.

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All obstacles that can be overcome

There's two key things any supporters body must understand and acknowledge if it wants to stand any chance of success :

1) Any supporters group will be reliant upon a small core of activists to do the vast majority of the work.
- Human nature dictates this to be inevitable.
- It's the same for major political parties, Trade Unions etc at a local level.
- Any notion that loads of poeple will rush forward to help is just niave.
- A very active core of 5-10 capable people (mostly based in Dublin, as geography will be a limiter to input) is what should be realistically expected, with other people in the capital and beyond willing to help out on occassion.

2) Most supporters won't join, and those who do will wait to see a reason to do so.
- Again, this is just human nature. It would be niave to expect Irish football supporters to rush to join a representative body just because one was set up.
- People need a reason to get involved/join.
- In the past, it's been one-off issues like Wimbledon or international tickets. A lack of ostensible reasons to stay involved afterwards lead those people to drift away after those issues were tackled, however.
- The bottom line is that any organisation will have to prove its worth before most people will join it. That would require it to start to do and achieve stuff to give prospective members faith in it.
- There is no point asking people to join an organisation just for the sake of it, and most people will nor respond until its value is proven.

I don't for one minute buy the fatalistic approach that fans can never have any input into football in Ireland. People need to waken up to the power they have as individuals when they come togteher and get organised. Numnerous organisations in all fields of life have proven that principle time and time again.

So long as any group that did get set up bore the above in mind (and in particular, didn't feel like a failure when people don't initially rally to their side), then they would be starting on the right foot.

The Bohs V rovers fixture change is another pointer to why we need this.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

There's two key things any supporters body must understand and acknowledge if it wants to stand any chance of success :

1) Any supporters group will be reliant upon a small core of activists to do the vast majority of the work.
- Human nature dictates this to be inevitable.
- It's the same for major political parties, Trade Unions etc at a local level.
- Any notion that loads of poeple will rush forward to help is just niave.
- A very active core of 5-10 capable people (mostly based in Dublin, as geography will be a limiter to input) is what should be realistically expected, with other people in the capital and beyond willing to help out on occassion.

2) Most supporters won't join, and those who do will wait to see a reason to do so.
- Again, this is just human nature. It would be niave to expect Irish football supporters to rush to join a representative body just because one was set up.
- People need a reason to get involved/join.
- In the past, it's been one-off issues like Wimbledon or international tickets. A lack of ostensible reasons to stay involved afterwards lead those people to drift away after those issues were tackled, however.
- The bottom line is that any organisation will have to prove its worth before most people will join it. That would require it to start to do and achieve stuff to give prospective members faith in it.
- There is no point asking people to join an organisation just for the sake of it, and most people will nor respond until its value is proven.

I don't for one minute buy the fatalistic approach that fans can never have any input into football in Ireland. People need to waken up to the power they have as individuals when they come togteher and get organised. Numnerous organisations in all fields of life have proven that principle time and time again.

So long as any group that did get set up bore the above in mind (and in particular, didn't feel like a failure when people don't initially rally to their side), then they would be starting on the right foot.

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Jaysus Steve,

A post of yours I broadly agree with. That's a rare occurence these days:D

As you said, only a minority of fans are interested in the League as a whole. The vast majority just care about their side and don't care about the progression of the league.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Jaysus Steve,

A post of yours I broadly agree with. That's a rare occurence these days:D

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Only cuz you've been spending too long in the Antipodean sun recently..... :D

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Originally Posted by Maribor

As you said, only a minority of fans are interested in the League as a whole. The vast majority just care about their side and don't care about the progression of the league.

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Until they find that they are in a world of sh!t and need the help of said fans group. This group should be tackling stuff that would effect all fans and as Steve says, when they get success then eyebrows are raised. If the group was continually chipping away then it would grow in numbers and get stronger as it goes on.

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Originally Posted by A face

Until they find that they are in a world of sh!t and need the help of said fans group. This group should be tackling stuff that would effect all fans and as Steve says, when they get success then eyebrows are raised. If the group was continually chipping away then it would grow in numbers and get stronger as it goes on.

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So keep plugging with the NLSA.

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Originally Posted by John83

So keep plugging with the NLSA.

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If you look at some of the statements above talking about how an organisation needs to be established and then grown, well why not get behind the NLSA? They are recognised by the FAI and have a history of dialogue with them. New supporter federations can't keep mushrooming up and expect to be recognised and taken seriously. I know the discourse here is suggestive that the NLSA is dead but I don't think it is. Any of the NLSA folk care to talk about this?

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Jaysus Steve,

A post of yours I broadly agree with. That's a rare occurence these days:D

As you said, only a minority of fans are interested in the League as a whole. The vast majority just care about their side and don't care about the progression of the league.

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was thinking the same myself Kev,

Steve you must be on your happy pills today :D

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

If you look at some of the statements above talking about how an organisation needs to be established and then grown, well why not get behind the NLSA? They are recognised by the FAI and have a history of dialogue with them. New supporter federations can't keep mushrooming up and expect to be recognised and taken seriously. I know the discourse here is suggestive that the NLSA is dead but I don't think it is. Any of the NLSA folk care to talk about this?

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do they even still exist?

my view on them (and was at the launch meeting)
was that they represented the views of of few very radical individuals and not of any group of supporters,

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Originally Posted by garyderry

do they even still exist?

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Well I don't think they've exactly folded, I'm not really sure of its status hence me asking someone from them to clarify. I'm sure it can be reinvigorated anyway as at this stage they've still had meetings with the FAI in the last year at least.

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my view on them (and was at the launch meeting)
was that they represented the views of of few very radical individuals and not of any group of supporters,

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Well, if people weren't bothered to join then you're never going to get a normalisation of views.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Well I don't think they've exactly folded, I'm not really sure of its status hence me asking someone from them to clarify. I'm sure it can be reinvigorated anyway as at this stage they've still had meetings with the FAI in the last year at least.



Well, if people weren't bothered to join then you're never going to get a normalisation of views.

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funny enough, we did join, both as an individual and as a supporters group (derry city Dublin SC), last we heard, but maybe some individuals within the sc know more, i doubt it as a few were complaining they heard nothing only last week? Hence why im actually asking.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

If you look at some of the statements above talking about how an organisation needs to be established and then grown, well why not get behind the NLSA? They are recognised by the FAI and have a history of dialogue with them. New supporter federations can't keep mushrooming up and expect to be recognised and taken seriously. I know the discourse here is suggestive that the NLSA is dead but I don't think it is. Any of the NLSA folk care to talk about this?

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I am, i would be, but the thing is its not evident. I haven't been sent one text, email, smoke signal, carrier pigeon since their inception. I am on here a fair bit of the time and haven't read one bit of feedback on their exploits.

For a group that represents the fans, that is unreal. I'm not saying fans should be bombarded with info everyday but a monthyl update would be good. Secretary and PRO are very quite given their roles.

The website aint the best to be honest and to be honest the forum seems mad given their is one right here. Two inexpensive ways to comunicate to fans and could really be very good tools.

And for the lads in NLSA right now, i'm not saying its easy, people have outlined that already. I cant imagine it must be great getting all the flack and negativity, for something they volunteer to do on behalf of the fans. But it does appear to be a sort of silo attitude towards fans, and they probably dont realise that alot of fans would actually like to pitch in to help the cause.

I definitely think that the NLSA need to communicate more and if you need something done then spit it out, letter/email campaign, protest, arson, assassination .... spit it out and lets get on with it.

A very detailed list of objectives and strategies was defined for the NLSA right at the start, and apparently approved by the organisation as a way forward. As far as I'm aware, however, little or nothing was ever done by the Executive to try to achieve these objectives.

Here's a suggestion that is extremley simple, yet would have at least a small positive impact. The introduction of the Setanta Sports Cup has, I believe, been the single most important development for Irish football since the split into 2 divisions in 1985. However - I constantly fear that Setanta will view it as just not worth their while doing. Part of the problem is that they have no idea how many of their subscribers are there to watch Irish football. Therefore - why not actively ancourage as many EL and IL fans who are Setanta subs as possible to contact the company and tell them that that is why they joined. Either compile a list centrally (the easiest option - and something a supporter's body could do), or encourage people to contact Setanta directly.

Just a simple idea that would do little harm and potentially a lot of good.

P.S. Before poeple comment - I know parts of Ireland get Setanta for free.

What about one Rep from each o.s.c and then appoint a committee from there and move the meetings around the country as there are actually teams outside Dublin