New PFAI Contracts = Regression ??

I dont know all the ins/outs of it but the new PFAI contracts now state that players do not have to do any 'off-the-pitch' promotion for their clubs. And if they are asked to do any they will be entitled to a day off from their training schedule :eek:

I always understood that the 'P' in PFAI stood for 'Professional' ?? How wrong i was.

Now i do agree players cant be expected to do countless hours of promotion for their club, having to turn up, meet and greet and what not, but in the case of our club, if players were asked to put in 5-6 hours a month then it would be alot (we always wanted them to do more but that never happened, even though it was in their contracts) and that was always the same 5-6 players turning up for all events, with some players not seen from one end of the year to the next except for on the pitch (even then some of them managed to hide)

Is this a calamitous 'shoot yourself in the foot' type decision for the PFAI ??
I just have to ask what was going through the heads of those involved in this 'think tank' because i fail to see where the 'thinking' took place.

FFS, why would you even bother if this is the kind of stunt being pulled by this lot. :mad: :(

Why did these guys even signup for this?

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Originally Posted by Fran Gavin

“There are big challenges and change won't come about overnight but with everyone pulling in the same direction, we can make a real go of professional football in Ireland".

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How wrong you were fella, how wrong you were.

Sounds about right. I have no time for the PFAI, they have little or no interest in the league, just how much their members can screw out of it. And they do not treat all clubs equally, and are anything but professional in the way they do business.

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Originally Posted by Galway Harps

Sounds about right. I have no time for the PFAI, they have little or no interest in the league...

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I think the PFAI up to now have been bad for the league. The manner that players paid after tax (clubs responsible for paying the PAYE) is ludicrous and I am sure is directly responsible for some of the tax problems recently. :mad:

On the other hand a common PFAI approved contract would make things easier for everyone as players and clubs would not need to pay solicitors everytime they negotiate contracts.

The PFAI are afterall a union so no surprise they unable to see the bigger picture. If you screw the clubs there will be no money left to pay your wages...

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Originally Posted by pete

I think the PFAI up to now have been bad for the league. The manner that players paid after tax (clubs responsible for paying the PAYE) is ludicrous and I am sure is directly responsible for some of the tax problems recently. :mad:

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Don't be stupid. Are you paid after tax? Who's responsible for paying your PAYE? Do you make the payment yourself or does your employer pay it? Is your employer going broke? It's not exactly a big secret how to gross wages up and work out the actual cost of you to your employer either.

I have emailed the PFAI (info ÁT pfai.ie) on this now aswell. I'll post up any reply i get, just so we know what the situation is.

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Hi there,

First off, i have to say i dont know the finer details of this issue as i have only heard this second hand but ... I just want to ask, what was the reasoning behind the stipulation in eircom League players contracts outlining that they would not have to attend club promotional events going forward, and that if they were asked, they could forgo a days training from the normal schedule. This in my opinion is ludicrous given the effort that league clubs have to make to raise the awareness of the league in their communities.

In hindsight, is this actually in the players best interests aswell? Eircom League players need to raise their public profile wherever possible if they expect punters to come through the gates and eventually result in income to pay their wages. Is this actually biting off the hand that feeds them?

For the record, when I say club promotional activities, I mean 5-10 hours a month tops. To break it down even further, we are talking about 2-3 hours a week in any given week. And this is for professional players, who ply their trade in the Irish football industry. An industry that already struggles to …. I wont go into it, you should already be aware of the situation this league is in.

Can i please get an answer on this aswell? Previous requests have gone unanswered for a number of months and that is not very 'Professional' in my opinion.

Regards

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A fair question to ask in my opinion. There shouldn't be any smoke and mirriors on this one. Its a decision which they have made and i am just questioning it. They must have deliberated on this to some degree and i just want to know why this is the outcome.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's not exactly a big secret how to gross wages up and work out the actual cost of you to your employer either.

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One of the problems is the net pay contracts, which do make it more difficult for clubs to gross up - different players having different tax credits available, some above the standard rate cut off, some below it. Potentially changing week to week. It also led to all the bogus expense payments that the revenue have uncovered.

So yes, clubs as employers are responsible for paying the PAYE, however the employee is also responsible for making sure they are paying the right amount of tax - something hard to do without insisting on payslips and p60's which is something the PFAI have never campaigned on. Gross pay contracts are definitely part of the solution to the financial messes that clubs in the league have found themselves.

btw this is possibly less of an issue at UCD, with less part time players earning a wage outside of football.

We either want professional football players or we don't. And professionals are entitled to be compensated for their work, on the field or off.
The PFAI, like any union, professional association or business grouping, is there to negotiate the best deal possible for its members. Why should they be expected to operate differently?

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Originally Posted by BohDiddley

We either want professional football players or we don't. And professionals are entitled to be compensated for their work, on the field or off.
The PFAI, like any union, professional association or business grouping, is there to negotiate the best deal possible for its members. Why should they be expected to operate differently?

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I wasn't disputing that ..... but it has to be said that while off the pitch promotional work will never be given the same credence, it seems to be overlooked or undervalued in this case.

This decision doesn’t seem to factor in the problem that eL players and clubs face in the Irish game. No matter what way you look at it, Irish football is starved of positive media coverage. One of single biggest assets the league has in this regard is the players, we should be promoting them, elevating their public profile and showcasing them to the point they are household names. The PFAI has neglected this, or even worse .... prevented this from happening.

Its irresponsible and it should be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Macy

One of the problems is the net pay contracts, which do make it more difficult for clubs to gross up - different players having different tax credits available, some above the standard rate cut off, some below it. Potentially changing week to week.

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I don't see any real issues in your post that couldn't be dealt with fairly handily by a competent administration though. The wage levels changing is fair enough maybe, but nothing else is exactly a big secret.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't see any real issues in your post that couldn't be dealt with fairly handily by a competent administration though. The wage levels changing is fair enough maybe, but nothing else is exactly a big secret.

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Name any other industry that tells its employee how much it will pay him/her after tax? Just because it does not affect UCD does not mean not an idiotic situation and as Macy mentioned is very complicated for part-time players. How is the club to know how much you earn in the other job & whether they have to pay 20% or 40% PAYE tax on top? I am no accountant but how would they know if you already paying benefit on kind for VHI, car travel expenses.... the list goes on.

Normal people get paid X gross amount. The tax man sends the company details on tax credits so company can deduct appropriate tax rate & forward to tax man.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pete

Name any other industry that tells its employee how much it will pay him/her after tax? Just because it does not affect UCD does not mean not an idiotic situation and as Macy mentioned is very complicated for part-time players. How is the club to know how much you earn in the other job & whether they have to pay 20% or 40% PAYE tax on top? I am no accountant but how would they know if you already paying benefit on kind for VHI, car travel expenses.... the list goes on.

Normal people get paid X gross amount. The tax man sends the company details on tax credits so company can deduct appropriate tax rate & forward to tax man.

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Footballers aren't the only people to work 2 jobs. The tax forms will tell you what rate to deduct it at and if you don't have them you deduct it at the higher rate.

It needs a little bit of administration but it's not rocket science.

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Originally Posted by pete

I am no accountant but how would they know if you already paying benefit on kind for VHI, car travel expenses.... the list goes on.

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I am, and I can tell you that it'd be a little bit of work, but quite easily workable.

In the worst case scenario, the club can pay the players their pay and put the onus on the player to file an Income Tax return at the end of the year and return their tax. The players would effectively be contractors, not employees, but other than that, there's be no difference. Quite straightforward.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

In the worst case scenario, the club can pay the players their pay and put the onus on the player to file an Income Tax return at the end of the year and return their tax. The players would effectively be contractors, not employees, but other than that, there's be no difference. Quite straightforward.

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Can they do that, even if the player is exclusively working for them? Wasn't that declared illegal in the building trade?

In a valiant attemt to drag this thread back on-topic... I see the PFAI's perspective insofar as they must protect the rights and conditions of their members. And I'm having to make a giant leap to take it on board. How can it be in the interest of football on this island if we have to give players a day off if they've done any promotional work. Pro footballers work for the club. Promo appearances should surely be part of their remit; shared on a roster basis amongst the squad. Where's the logic in a player missing a day's training in lieu of a promo appearance. This is senseless?

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Originally Posted by BohDiddley

Can they do that, even if the player is exclusively working for them? Wasn't that declared illegal in the building trade?

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Contracting is definitely not illegal in the bulding trade, there seem to be more subbies than PAYE workers.

It is, however, illegal in football which is why Shels had to cease the practise of hiring players as contractors a couple of seasons ago and start paying a tax bill the same as everyone else.

Or not...

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Originally Posted by Philo

It is, however, illegal in football which is why Shels had to cease the practise of hiring players as contractors a couple of seasons ago and start paying a tax bill the same as everyone else.

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Really? That doesn't make any sense. They're still paying the tax; they're just giving the money to the player, who'll then forward it to the Revenue - same nett result.

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Originally Posted by Sniffer

In a valiant attemt to drag this thread back on-topic... I see the PFAI's perspective insofar as they must protect the rights and conditions of their members. And I'm having to make a giant leap to take it on board. How can it be in the interest of football on this island if we have to give players a day off if they've done any promotional work. Pro footballers work for the club. Promo appearances should surely be part of their remit; shared on a roster basis amongst the squad. Where's the logic in a player missing a day's training in lieu of a promo appearance. This is senseless?

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Thanks be to god someone can see the woods for the tree and look at the issue that was raised. Sniffer, nice one for bring ing this back on topic.

Update : No reply from the PFAI yet.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

Footballers aren't the only people to work 2 jobs. The tax forms will tell you what rate to deduct it at and if you don't have them you deduct it at the higher rate.

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Which is very easy to administer if you're paying people based on a gross amount. And even at that it can get more complicated if that's changing week to week with the cumulative system.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it certainly vastly increases the admin of the payroll compared to a situation where pay is based on gross pay. I don't think our multi million payroll system in here would be able to work back from net pay to gross automatically - would the lower end/ smaller business software? I just don't think the software is designed for such nonsense...

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Really? That doesn't make any sense. They're still paying the tax; they're just giving the money to the player, who'll then forward it to the Revenue - same nett result.

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Less admin for club though, and you're assuming that the players are registered for tax in Ireland. An area I previously worked in had literally 1000s of Australian, New Zealanders and South Africans working in it and vast majority were registered in Jersey for tax. Became a huge problem when they wanted to renew work authorisation

Not saying any footballers were doing likewise but I'm sure any of them with accountants/agents may have been advised to do so

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Less admin for club though

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I know; that's why I suggested it.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

and you're assuming that the players are registered for tax in Ireland.

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I think it's a fair enough assumption to make. The vast majority of players in the league are Irish resident - they have to be to train and play football here every week - so it'd be very easy to register them for tax. And the onus is on the player, not the club, to pay the tax, so if they don't register and declare the money, it's their tough, not the club's.

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Originally Posted by Philo

Contracting is definitely not illegal in the bulding trade, there seem to be more subbies than PAYE workers.

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Revenue did a big investigation into the construction industry last year on this issue and hammered companies for paying people as subbies when infact they were employee's.

As you said, Shels tried this too, and it was found to be a breach of Tax Regulations. I would've thought that the football registration system made it very hard to claim they were genuine sub contractors.

well if they want to be PAYE professionals fine, that'll be a 37.5 hour week then

train
play
promote

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Originally Posted by green-blood

well if they want to be PAYE professionals fine, that'll be a 37.5 hour week then...

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Not all PAYE jobs are 37.5 hours a week.

I think it comes down to one question - why should footballers be any different than any other employee.

I think the PFAI contract should include a box for "promotion" which would be up to each player to negotiate with their club when sign contracts. Some will happily include it while others will have hours included by their club in exchange for increased wages...

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Originally Posted by Macy

As you said, Shels tried this too, and it was found to be a breach of Tax Regulations. I would've thought that the football registration system made it very hard to claim they were genuine sub contractors.

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Actually, that you mention it, footballers wouldn't qualify as subbies under Revenue's criteria alright. It is actually fairly clearly defined.

However, it'd still be relatively handy to work out gross from nett.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

However, it'd still be relatively handy to work out gross from nett.

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How do you know to add the standard or the top rate of PAYE tax on top?

:confused:

Get the info from the employee.

Apply emergency tax.

Check if he's earning more than his SRCO and just tax him at 41% for everything (quite a likely scenario).

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Get the info from the employee.

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What happens if employees information is incorrect?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Apply emergency tax.

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This is only a temporary measure & would mean player having to pay huge tax bill & reclaim later.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Check if he's earning more than his SRCO and just tax him at 41% for everything (quite a likely scenario).

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Similar but not as bad as emergency tax but would also mean player having to pay very high tax upfront & from those on modest wages probably not able to afford that.

Fulltime players should be paid like any other PAYE worker in the state. Part-timers could be paid as contractors.

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Originally Posted by pete

What happens if employees information is incorrect?

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Just get his tax card issued from Revenue; not that difficult. Ask Revenue for it in fact. Ask his employer for wage details.

Edit - in fact, I'll change this and note that it's quite possible to ask for your tax credits to be allocated between two different jobs. So now you know exactly what they're to end up with, exactly what tax applies and you can easily work backwards to work out the total cost to you.

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Originally Posted by pete

This is only a temporary measure & would mean player having to pay huge tax bill & reclaim later.

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Tough on the player then. Get your tax card. Everyone else has to.

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Originally Posted by pete

Similar but not as bad as emergency tax but it would also mean the player having to pay very high tax upfront and from those on modest wages they would probably not able to afford that.

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Don't understand this? The player wouldn't have to pay any tax up front; it's PAYE, which means your tax gets stopped before you get it. Being able to afford it doesn't come into it; you never get the money into your hand in the first place.

Pineapple, are you really defending the Nett Pay contracts and trying to make out they're not more difficult to administer than Gross Pay ones? It may be helpful if you could suggest to clubs the payroll system that they should be using that will handle this working backwards approach to payroll administration, particularly given that tax is cumulative?

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Originally Posted by Macy

It may be helpful if you could suggest to clubs the payroll system that they should be using that will handle this working backwards approach to payroll administration, particularly given that tax is cumulative?

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I call it a spreadsheet. I've done it plenty of times. You have your nett pay, you have your tax rates, and you use trial and error to get the gross. You obviously do this in advance so that, in contract negotiations for example, you know what you're getting yourself in for.

Obviously gross contracts are easier to work out, but that doesn't mean nett contracts are very difficult.