Living beyond your means - irresponsible, but is it cheating?

We all know how irresponsible it is when clubs run themselves into the ground, and how badly the farces at shamrock rovers (credit to the fans), dublin city (what fans?) and now shelbourne (there could be fans, but we dont know, can't find the receipts anywhere) have reflected on the league. it brings everything else down.

While its probably true that you have to spend money to make money, and chairmen/boards have a history of just ploughing money into the club as a 'hobby' or labour of love, getting to the point where you're lying about tax or lying to players about wages is just pathetic and makes me cringe. its perfect fodder for idiots like Dave Hannigan who'll scan the eL pages weekly and might decide to copy/paste their stock 'if only it was run like the gaa' story if theres something nice and damning about the league.
but in terms of the football, do you think it is cheating? morally? legally?

in my own opinion, you're fielding a team that is not a true reflection of the club. you have an unfair advantage in that you're bending or breaking the rules in one area, off the field, which does impact on the field - you have players who wouldn't be there otherwise.

Your dead right mate, but alas you are wasting your time.

Its obvious that Shels have not got enough money in the biscuit tin & have alternated between paying the taxman one month & the players the next. Hence players going weeks without getting paid & revenue wind up notices appearing as regular adverts in the papers!

Shels fans however will simply tell you they won the league. Matters like revenue notices are only small technecalities & don't affect the league champions . They will simply follow the almighty fat one Ollie & trust him to lead them to the promised land of Champions League. I mean as Ollie says its the taxmans fault, & Ollie a highly respected company director would never break the law.

In fact did he not meet the players last week to tell them everything is happy & wonderful in Planet Tolka & won't have to worry about little things like not getting paid anymore. In fact as Ollie said himself SHAME on the players for even questioning the almighty fat one.

I can see it now "an investor" will be announed tomorrow with cash expected in the next few weeks. Next time you visit tolka you will have What a wonderful World playing over the speakers

The real issue here is the FAI Club License. Has there ever been a more worthless document in the history of the game in Ireland? Even player contracts get more respect, in most clubs.

At one time or another every club has had a situation were it was spending beyond its means to a ridiculous extent. In a way it is cheating but only when its done deliberately as seems to be the case with Shels because 3 winding up orders from the revenue in 9 months is pretty spectacular going. Other clubs will have agreements with the revenue [for example],and once they stick to them they will be left alone. Shels have to be breaching an agreement for the revenue to come after them so much.



Bohs continue to do it [on the back of the ground sale] although in the year we won the double we made a profit as a result of the TV money for the Kaiserslautern game

Derry nearly went to the wall 5 years ago

Cork were bailed out about 10-11 years ago

Dundalk only survived by selling part of their grounds last year

Drogheda signed 3 players the day before not being able to pay anyone the following day in late 2002

St Pats struggled a few years ago and placed office staff on protective notice and offloaded a lot of high earners from their playing staff as a result

Shamrock Rovers did it spectacularily a few years ago

Finn Harps got into serious trouble about 6 years ago

Sligo struggled for almost a decade on the back of huge overspending in the mid-90's



I think this couldnt have been timed much worse for Shels. Just when they are trying to convince Fenlon to stay, that all the financial problems are over, this happens.

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Originally Posted by Peadar

The real issue here is the FAI Club License. Has there ever been a more worthless document in the history of the game in Ireland? Even player contracts get more respect, in most clubs.

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The FAI Club license is the biggest load of crap because if they applied it with any degree of strictness the league wouldnt exist. If they had a points deduction system for failure to comply with things like Finance, Facilities, Infrastruture and Youth Setup and enforced it rigidly then clubs would be forced to take things seriously. Clubs know the FAI cannot enforce it properly so therefore take advantage of that.

For this to stop, it's gonna take something fairly spectacular which simply can't be brushed under the carpet - like the Revenue withholding a tax clearance cert due to repeated breaches of payment agreements. For a club in European competition, that'd be devastating as UEFA wouldn't let them come to the party and if UEFA were aware of it, it'd be harder for the FAI to continue to fudge the issue.

As regards the original question, what Shels are at is gaining an unfair advantage and that's cheating in anyone's book.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub

For this to stop, it's gonna take something fairly spectacular which simply can't be brushed under the carpet - like the Revenue withholding a tax clearance cert due to repeated breaches of payment agreements. For a club in European competition, that'd be devastating as UEFA wouldn't let them come to the party and if UEFA were aware of it, it'd be harder for the FAI to continue to fudge the issue.

As regards the original question, what Shels are at is gaining an unfair advantage and that's cheating in anyone's book.

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Shels are only doing what the rest are doing on a larger scale

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Originally Posted by bohs til i die

Shels are only doing what the rest are doing on a larger scale

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yes, but theres a line that is crossed at some point. Cork City, for example, allowed (accidentally?) an under payment to accrue then paid it back when requested. Shels have been asked to pay their taxes properly 3 times this season. its ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by bohs til i die

Shels are only doing what the rest are doing on a larger scale

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Yawn. Bohs get a bit of money and you decide to polish your halo.

Clubs may not actually be rolling in cash (unlike your own) but Shels are out on their own in terms of their activities this year. The fact they won the League whilst failing so miserably off the pitch is particularly relevant.

Rovers points deduction was supposed to be the line in the sand.

The players in the league are paid too much. Its not as if anyone queuing up to sign the vast majority of them. The main competition for players is other eL clubs. When eL clubs pay too much it starts a vicious cycle.

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Originally Posted by Peadar

The real issue here is the FAI Club License. Has there ever been a more worthless document in the history of the game in Ireland? Even player contracts get more respect, in most clubs.

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Exactly. Though as someone else pointed out, if the thing was strictly enforced how many clubs would be left in the league ?

What Shels are doing may be a lot of things - reckless, stupid, etc, but I don't think it's cheating. There's no law that says clubs can't be silly with money. Most clubs have played the same sort of games at some stage over the years. Usually they get their fingers burned and pull in their reins for a while. The difference with Shels is that Ollie seems incapable of doing this. Ultimately what he's at is playing with fire in a big way. He's like a gambling addict, forever trying to recoup his losses. Stringing along the Revenue the way he seems to be doing is especially dangerous. He'll do it once too often in my view.

(Oh, and bTW have to laugh at his talk of Shels imminent "new investor" yet again. We haven't heard about him/her since....ooh the last time they were up in court.:D )

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Yawn. Bohs get a bit of money and you decide to polish your halo.

Clubs may not actually be rolling in cash (unlike your own) but Shels are out on their own in terms of their activities this year. The fact they won the League whilst failing so miserably off the pitch is particularly relevant.

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Whatever.

Shels won the title whilst trying to keep up repayments from years gone by. They couldnt and fell into a lot of trouble.

Quite similar to Derry in 2000 except Derry won fukk all.

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Originally Posted by bohs til i die

Shels are only doing what the rest are doing on a larger scale

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Only in so far as holding up a lorry-load of cigarettes at gun-point, beating the driver and then stealing the vehicle with all its stock would only be doing what anyone who's ever nicked a cigarette off their parents/friends is doing.

Sure it's just the same thing on a larger scale, so that makes it alright......

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Originally Posted by TonyD

What Shels are doing may be a lot of things - reckless, stupid, etc, but I don't think it's cheating. There's no law that says clubs can't be silly with money.

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Errr - tax and Company laws perhaps......?

Shel's must be doing one of 2 things :

SCENARIO 1 They don't have the money to pay the Revenue.
If they've failed to pay all their tax because they don't have the money to do so, then they've been operating illegally as a business and should be/will be shut down. There are in effect insolvent. They also, therefore, would have effectively been diverting the Taxman's money towards their other activities - namely paying player salaries that they couldn't afford - so in-effect have been using state money to subsidise their team. That is patently unfair/cheating.

SCENARIO 2 : Shels do have the money.
If Shels have the money, or can get it easily, then they've been unnecessarily with-holding money forom the revenue on a regular basis. This is illegal - hence winding-up orders get issued. the Revenue will eventually tire of Olly's silly games and decide to teach them a lesson. That would be one way of solving the 21 team league issue.


Shels have been at best acting illegally, and at worst acting illegally and cheating.

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Originally Posted by bohs til i die

Whatever.

Shels won the title whilst trying to keep up repayments from years gone by. They couldnt and fell into a lot of trouble.

Quite similar to Derry in 2000 except Derry won fukk all.

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Not in the least bit true I'm afraid.

If you are behind on your tax in the North and the Revenue people give you a warning of intention to act, then that is it. If you don't pay up within the period they specif, they shut you down. They don't issue constant Wind-up notices to try to cajole you into action. Ask Omagh Town how many notices of winding-up they received....

Seems the Republic's Revenue Commissioner's are about as intentional in pursuing frequent tax avoidance as the FAI is at properly implementing Licensing...

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Seems the Republic's Revenue Commissioner's are about as intentional in pursuing frequent tax avoidance as the FAI is at properly implementing Licensing...

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Just a different process, that's all. If a company pays up then they'll withdraw the action, as for them getting the money is all. I genuinely don't know of a case like this where it's third time they've had to go to this trouble and whether they'll pursue the winding up this time. I wonder whether any other creditors are getting twitchy at this stage too. btw The Irish Revenue are getting billions in a year in back tax from evasion in the past - can't really be said to be soft, just want the money if possible.

Is it cheating? If it's wilful then I believe it is. Clubs can get caught when Director payments stop and crowds collapse, but in most cases there's people behind the scenes bursting their balls to get back on an even financial keel, and is often down to naivety and misplaced trust in the speculate to accumulate model of football club management. If you're failing to address the problems, and instead running up more and more debts, then I think it is cheating. Can hardly call Ollie naive can you?

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Originally Posted by Macy

Just a different process, that's all. If a company pays up then they'll withdraw the action, as for them getting the money is all. I genuinely don't know of a case like this where it's third time they've had to go to this trouble and whether they'll pursue the winding up this time. I wonder whether any other creditors are getting twitchy at this stage too. btw The Irish Revenue are getting billions in a year in back tax from evasion in the past - can't really be said to be soft, just want the money if possible.

Is it cheating? If it's wilful then I believe it is. Clubs can get caught when Director payments stop and crowds collapse, but in most cases there's people behind the scenes bursting their balls to get back on an even financial keel, and is often down to naivety and misplaced trust in the speculate to accumulate model of football club management. If you're failing to address the problems, and instead running up more and more debts, then I think it is cheating. Can hardly call Ollie naive can you?

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Ollie is doing everything he can to gain an advantage, but every other club has had some issue with the good people in the revenue commissioners over the past decade.

Ollie is not being reckless IMO, nor is he/Shels cheating because the assets of the company [ie- value on Lease of Tolka Park] is still worth a considerable amount and is a lot higher then what they owed the revenue.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Not in the least bit true I'm afraid.

If you are behind on your tax in the North and the Revenue people give you a warning of intention to act, then that is it. If you don't pay up within the period they specif, they shut you down. They don't issue constant Wind-up notices to try to cajole you into action. Ask Omagh Town how many notices of winding-up they received....

Seems the Republic's Revenue Commissioner's are about as intentional in pursuing frequent tax avoidance as the FAI is at properly implementing Licensing...

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Well this is the difference in jurisdictions that hurts Derry more then any other club. Tough **** applies here Im afraid.

The revenue are taking the tough line with Shels.
In March they hit them with a winding up oder over a large amount owed and Ollie found the money and paid up. In August there was still an outstanding debt and again Ollie paid up after the revenue issued a winding up order. The latest order is because of a skipped payment. It seems to me that the revenue will act on Shels straight away if any payment is missed.

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Originally Posted by bohs til i die

Ollie is doing everything he can to gain an advantage, but every other club has had some issue with the good people in the revenue commissioners over the past decade.

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Wrong. :)

Also, as noted before, Shels aren't insolvent. However, I can't imagine what Ollie's doing falls outside the idea of reckless trading.

You would imagine, though, that if Revenue are hounding Shels every time to get paid, there's less money to pay players, etc, which means they're going to leave (however stupid professional footballers are, they know when they're not getting paid) and are more likely to leave and be replaced by cheaper options (for the same payment reasons above). Indirectly, Revenue are forcing Shels to get their house in order. Touch wood.

On a cheating/fairness issue, Shels' ludicrous overspending puts the pressure on other clubs to do the same to keep up (e.g. Cork, Dublin City*). In an ideal world, the FAI would give Shels such a root up the hole that Ollie wouldn't be walking straight, and Shels would start living within their means. It's very annoying, for example, seeing UCD finish sixth in the table, knowing that we operate strictly within our means and knowing that we'd be on the verge of Europe on a regular basis if the likes of Shels and Cork were run properly. Clubs like Shels are effectively holding back the properly run clubs.

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Originally Posted by Hooperatzi

so you can see why we are a bit aggrieved!!!

we f-ked up once and get relegated as a result, despite making changes to ensure that it never happens again.

shels get 3 goes at the same issue in the same season and no-one says boo, including the PFAI.

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See, where you went wrong is in having fans who care about the club and who are interested in the issues surrounding its running.

If Ollie were the chairman of Rovers, for example, I would imagine he would already have been lynched and ousted. But there's no one in the stands of Tolka to stand up to him or force the FAI to look their way, so nothing happens.



* - probably a bad exmaple...

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Wrong. :)

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Ok, every club bar UCD.

Thank you. :)

I know some thing similar was mentioned before, but the Transfer window system restricts clubs ability to sell players.
That said , by not listening to offers for Jason Byrne were Shels not acting recklessly?
The licencing sytem is at fault here.

sometime last week as part of the final stages of licensing all clubs were required to sign a declaration stating that there club had no pending litagation or wind up orders that may impact on them ,has shels invaludated the licence application by signing theres

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Originally Posted by passerrby

sometime last week as part of the final stages of licensing all clubs were required to sign a declaration stating that there club had no pending litagation or wind up orders that may impact on them ,has shels invaludated the licence application by signing theres

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not if they got the winding up order after the license thing was signed

agreed but if the first instance committe meets this weeks were does that leave shels

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Originally Posted by passerrby

agreed but if the first instance committe meets this weeks were does that leave shels

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In a spot of bother one would imagine. But this is the country where a good lawyer can solve everything.....

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

In a spot of bother one would imagine. But this is the country where a good lawyer can solve everything.....

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If you can buy one.

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Originally Posted by bohs til i die

not if they got the winding up order after the license thing was signed

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That only covers "current" - not "pending" winding-up orders.

Olliy's own quote in the Irish Times clearly stated that he's in the business of just fobbing the Revenue off, without paying them. He therefore must have known another winding-up order was inevitably due, since he didn't clear the last one.

Will be interesting to see what the whitewash, sorry - Licensing Committee makes of Shel's latest Winding-up order in the context of Olly's ill-advised quote.

he rally has shot himeself in the foot, reciving the cash listed in a winding up order does not close the action, 9 time out out of 10 the revenue will turn uo in court and withdraw the action as the debt has been cleared. They may not be so forgiving this time, or the next time, or the time after that, but eventually they will go to the courts and ask for an examiner. If Ollie is reastricted from acting as a director he is shagged as didnt amost of the Sesl board quit.

actually who are the directors of Shelbourne FC or whatever the latest company is called