Pats v Derry - Anomaly

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14/11/2006, 7:49 AM
paudie

Pats v Derry - Anomaly

Realised last night that iyou could argue that it suited Pats to lose to Derry on Friday.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the situation is as follows:

If Derry win the league and the Cup Pats enter UEFA Cup. If Derry come second and win the Cup the UEFA Cup spot goes to the next best placed team in the league. Therefore Pats qualifiation for Europe depends on Derry winning or not winning the league rather than the Cup final result.

Not saying it affected Pats perforrmance on Friday as I didn't see the game but it would be even more interesting if a similar situation arose on the last game of the season ie. A team a point ahead of the league playing a mid table team, with the two teams playing in the Cup final later. It would suit the mid table team to lose, thereby guaranteeing their Euro qualification.
14/11/2006, 9:21 AM
derrymac

Having been at the game, Pats did not try not to win. They had a penalty which was very well saved by Forde. They had the ball in the net in injury time, only for it to be disallowed.

I think you are doing a great disservice to Pats if you are inferring they tried to throw the game.
14/11/2006, 9:25 AM
paudie

Quote:

Originally Posted by derrymac

I think you are doing a great disservice to Pats if you are inferring they tried to throw the game.

Not inferring that at all, as I said in my first post.

Just making the point that Pats were in an unusual situation where you could argue it benefitted them more to lose the game.
14/11/2006, 9:28 AM
Danny

definitely didnt try not to win but not too unhappy that we didnt win....
if derry win the league ollie will have his lawyers on the case and that wont be sorted by the cup final so there's no way we can be sure of europe without winning the cup.... also there's probably more money in the setanta cup which we'll only get into by winning the cup
14/11/2006, 10:22 AM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by derrymac

Having been at the game, Pats did not try not to win. They had a penalty which was very well saved by Forde.

Well saved or choreographed between Foley and Forde? I'd get Ollie onto this...
14/11/2006, 11:25 AM
pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Well saved or choreographed between Foley and Forde? I'd get Ollie onto this...

Could clearly see on tv3 footage that Foley showed Forde where he was going to send it. I wonder has Foley ever taken a penalty before? Why not Molloy, Fahy or Keegan...? :confused: :eek:
14/11/2006, 11:28 AM
Keego

I think Molloy has not taken a pen since he missed earlier in the season.
Fahey was on the bench and Keego was not in the squad
14/11/2006, 11:29 AM
wws

yes foley has

and yes hes scored

and by the way there was no infringement for teh pats equaliser

curiouser and curiouser

the ref who let derry win? Henry Winter - from Dunfermline!?!!
14/11/2006, 11:30 AM
Jerry The Saint

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Well saved or choreographed between Foley and Forde? I'd get Ollie onto this...

You have to say it was at a 'nice height for the keeper'...
14/11/2006, 11:36 AM
Jaime

I thought the funniest part was Barry Ryan's mock angry wave of his hand when the Derry goal went in. :)
14/11/2006, 11:44 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by paudie

Realised last night that iyou could argue that it suited Pats to lose to Derry on Friday.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the situation is as follows:

If Derry win the league and the Cup Pats enter UEFA Cup. If Derry come second and win the Cup the UEFA Cup spot goes to the next best placed team in the league. Therefore Pats qualifiation for Europe depends on Derry winning or not winning the league rather than the Cup final result.

Not saying it affected Pats perforrmance on Friday as I didn't see the game but it would be even more interesting if a similar situation arose on the last game of the season ie. A team a point ahead of the league playing a mid table team, with the two teams playing in the Cup final later. It would suit the mid table team to lose, thereby guaranteeing their Euro qualification.

Such anomalies are fairly rare in football, but they do still happen somewhere or other every year.

Was there not a comical episode in international football between 2 Caribbean or Latin American countries a few years back ? Both-sides were joint top of their qualification group, but wanted to come second to get an easier draw in the next round or a play-off or something. So as they both wanted to lose, they literally ended up just putting the ball into their own nets ! I'm fairly sure the result was eventually expunged for such underhand tactics though.

Anyone else know the game I'm on about here ?? :confused:
14/11/2006, 11:46 AM
wws

steve relax

no underhand deals - we were by far the better the team
as we will be again in December when the Pars visit Lansdowne
14/11/2006, 12:00 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by wws

steve relax

no underhand deals - we were by far the better the team
as we will be again in December when the Pars visit Lansdowne

...........but you'll still lose, 'cause you don't do Cup wins :p ;)
14/11/2006, 12:04 PM
Hitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Such anomalies are fairly rare in football, but they do still happen somewhere or other every year.

Was there not a comical episode in international football between 2 Caribbean or Latin American countries a few years back ? Both-sides were joint top of their qualification group, but wanted to come second to get an easier draw in the next round or a play-off or something. So as they both wanted to lose, they literally ended up just putting the ball into their own nets ! I'm fairly sure the result was eventually expunged for such underhand tactics though.

Anyone else know the game I'm on about here ?? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Cup#1998

Is that the one?
14/11/2006, 12:05 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by wws

steve relax

no underhand deals - we were by far the better the team
as we will be again in December when the Pars visit Lansdowne

Apologies WWS - I wasn't in any way suggesting dodgy dealings in the Pat's game. Having seen the highlights, I'd say we were lucky to get the 3pts !

Was just saying that it's not that rare to have 2 teams in situations where the usual 'both want/need to win' situation doesn't apply.

Would love to know what game the example I gave was from though.
14/11/2006, 12:07 PM
wws

JC_GUFC will have that answer for sure

he probably had money on it too.....
14/11/2006, 12:07 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Cup#1998

Is that the one?

I'd say that's it Hitman - thanks for digging out.

Will have to remember it for pub quizzes and 'A Question of Sport'..... :D
14/11/2006, 12:18 PM
JC_GUFC

I remember the game alright. I was on overs!

Sounds incredible but it actually happened

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Cup
14/11/2006, 1:13 PM
Dodge

Something similar happended a lot closer to home, and more recent too. When the irish League split into two divisions, they took the league placings (not points!) over two years. For the life of me I can't remember the teams involved but team A could not move up a place by winning the last game but if their opposition (Team B) won they'd finish 1 place ahead of Team C in that season's table, thus having Team A 1 place above team C on the combined rankings. Team B won and team A ended up in the premier. Anyone remember the teams/story?
14/11/2006, 1:42 PM
JC_GUFC

Never heard that story before Dodge but even the FAI would struggle to come up with something as ridiculous as that.

94/95 was the last season of the 1 team league there judging by this table
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesn/nil95.html
It appears that the match you are on about was between Bangor and any one of Portadown, Ards, Glentoran & Cliftonville with Coleraine being the team to lose out. The next season Bangor finished bottom of the Premier and Coleraine won the 1st division so they swapped places anyway.
14/11/2006, 1:45 PM
Schumi

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC_GUFC

Never heard that story before Dodge but even the FAI would struggle to come up with something as ridiculous as that.

Had they announced the off field stuff first, we'd see at least one case of it this year I'd say.
14/11/2006, 1:52 PM
Dodge

It could happen this year if it was tight as its the league placings that count not points...

Yeah it was that year. Bangor rings a bell but couldn't tell you more. Might look into it later.
14/11/2006, 2:30 PM
crc

I thought the Tiger Cup example was funny, but the Barbados-Grenada example is totally loopy!
14/11/2006, 5:03 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC_GUFC

I remember the game alright. I was on overs!

Sounds incredible but it actually happened

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Cup

That's the one I was thinking of JC - thanks for that.

Pure madness - you couldn't make it up.

I wonder did the clubs get penalised like in Asia ? Probably not if Blatter's corrupt buddy from Trinidad was in charge of CONCACAF at the time :eek:
14/11/2006, 5:39 PM
Jerry The Saint

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

It could happen this year if it was tight as its the league placings that count not points...

With the stadium announcement from Finn Harps and their record in recent seasons, it is in Galway and Dundalk's interest that Harps finish as far down the league as possible. Might have been better in the long-run for Dundalk to have thrown their game against Limerick last week. :eek: