Anti Social Behaviour

Cannot turn on the Radio or read the papers without reference to ASB, without the O, yet!

In fairness, a lot of communites are under attack, by Gangs of Youths who seem to be untouchables as far as law and order is concerned.

Any suggestions on methods or actions that might bring this back under control?

Heard a debate on talkSport that got a 95% Poll result for the Singapore Solution! It seems that when local Yob is picked up, he, and it is generally a he, a doctor is called to the local Cop Shop, cameras are turned on, and if the local sargent is satisfied he is guilty, three lashes of the birch is given to the bare posterior!

And before it is said that it is barbaric, is it not barbaric that old people are living in fear all over the country tonight? And dont tell me that its not barbaric to witness some of the stuff that goes on in town centres every weekend!

Iinterested to hear the views here, and I am not some right wing nut, but I can apprecieate the chaos that happens when the word is out there that Kids are untouchable!:mad:

It's barbaric. There's no defense or justification for either corporal or capital punishment.

If Gov.ie really wants to deal with crime, there's a very simple three-step solution:

1. Decommission the existing jails and build new, tough ones.
2. Lock repeat offenders up, for longer periods. Lock the worst criminals up for the rest of their lives.
3. Reform the parole system back to it's original purpose: rewarding good behaviour.

adam

Thing about the "Singapore Solution" is it doesn't work! None of these countries that have corporal punishment have noticebly lower crime rates than those who don't, in fact many have much higher crime rates.
I would argue, yes you have to punish offenders but you also have to look at the reason why crime is increasingly becoming such a big problem in our society. I would argue a lot of this is down to the hegemony of the Thatcherite idea that there is "no such thing as society, only individuals and families". When this idea is bought, and boy has it been bought in Celtic Tiger Ireland, then its every man and woman for themselves and to hell with other people. If you can't get ahead by legitimate means then you're going to get ahead by illegitmate means or at least make life damned uncomfortable for those who you percieve to be better off. Youth grow up with no sense of community or belonging, no link to the past or older generations, so they in turn show no respect to these older generations. I spent the first ten years of my life in a council estate in Navan. Yes it was rough but it had a sense of community. Now you wouldn't go near the place. The small estate we moved to when I was ten was also a real community. In many ways it still is among the people who have been there for years. Today's housing estates, miles from any amenities, populated by commuters who don't have time to develope a community, who rarely see there kids or have time to bond with them are incubators of alienation. In a society such as this it is no wonder there is crime. The guy down the road is no longer someone you stand outside talking about gardening or football with, he's an identityless individual to be despised, jealous of or to look down on.
We need a society that attacks these ills, that builds communities not mass dormitories and we need a police force that is accountable to these communities, not divorced from them.

I agree that we should have modern professional jails. I don't know what the current ones like but most are very old buildings which can't be good.

Talk of reform is wishful thinking, Prison is for punishment!

Chain gangs & work farms would be possible solutions for non-violent criminals.

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Originally Posted by pete

Talk of reform is wishful thinking, Prison is for punishment!
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No point in punishing them if they come back out unreformed though.

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Chain gangs & work farms would be possible solutions for non-violent criminals

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Yeah that really eradicated crime in the US! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pete

Talk of reform is wishful thinking, Prison is for punishment!

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The punishment is supposed to be loss of liberty. Prisons should be about rehabilitation, training and drug treatment.

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Originally Posted by pete

Talk of reform is wishful thinking, Prison is for punishment!

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I agree that prison is for punishment but the actual lack of liberty is punsihment enough.

Surely you dont object to attempts to help inmates have more options available (than just going back to criminal activity) when they are released from prison?

The lack of liberty is most certainly not punishment enough, the complete failure of our current prison systems should be proof enough of that. One in four prisoners reoffends, usually because they've learned more about crime inside than they every learned outside. By breaking the law, criminals revoke many of their rights, and in my opinion these should include all but the most basic human rights. They should be educated yes, but by educators. They should be treated yes, but not with kid gloves.

Lock 'em up for longer periods and with less of the luxuries, and watch crime levels drop. It's a long term investment though, and our current government doesn't understand that concept. Like Republicans in the US, all they understand is the quick hit. They're the crack addicts of politics.

adam

I'd create a special unit of the Gardai, something along the lines of the SS (uniforms and all), give them a snappy name like 'the Death Squad', and let them whip the nations youth into shape :D ;) :D

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Originally Posted by jebus

I'd create a special unit of the Gardai, something along the lines of the SS (uniforms and all), give them a snappy name like 'the Death Squad', and let them whip the nations youth into shape

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Maybe we can both join now that we've lots of free weekends for training :(

Can we have acid tipped bullets?? :p

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Maybe we can both join now that we've lots of free weekends for training :(

Can we have acid tipped bullets?? :p

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Ah inflicting horrible pain on the nation's teenagers would be just the tonic for Limerick going bust

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Originally Posted by jebus

Ah inflicting horrible pain on the nation's teenagers would be just the tonic for Limerick going bust

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Is that not what Limerick FC have been doing all along? :confused: ;)

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Is that not what Limerick FC have been doing all along? :confused: ;)

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One Nil to BohsPartisan :)

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Is that not what Limerick FC have been doing all along? :confused: ;)

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Adults used to go to the games too :(

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Is that not what Limerick FC have been doing all along? :confused: ;)

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But when we go bust we will ease their pain.

1:1 (Osarusan 87")

Back on-topic please, this is Current Affairs.

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I would argue, yes you have to punish offenders but you also have to look at the reason why crime is increasingly becoming such a big problem in our society. I would argue a lot of this is down to the hegemony of the Thatcherite idea that there is "no such thing as society, only individuals and families". When this idea is bought, and boy has it been bought in Celtic Tiger Ireland, then its every man and woman for themselves and to hell with other people. If you can't get ahead by legitimate means then you're going to get ahead by illegitmate means or at least make life damned uncomfortable for those who you percieve to be better off. Youth grow up with no sense of community or belonging, no link to the past or older generations, so they in turn show no respect to these older generations. I spent the first ten years of my life in a council estate in Navan. Yes it was rough but it had a sense of community. Now you wouldn't go near the place. The small estate we moved to when I was ten was also a real community. In many ways it still is among the people who have been there for years. Today's housing estates, miles from any amenities, populated by commuters who don't have time to develope a community, who rarely see there kids or have time to bond with them are incubators of alienation. In a society such as this it is no wonder there is crime. The guy down the road is no longer someone you stand outside talking about gardening or football with, he's an identityless individual to be despised, jealous of or to look down on.
We need a society that attacks these ills, that builds communities not mass dormitories and we need a police force that is accountable to these communities, not divorced from them.

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NEx time, you meet a gang round a corner late at night, save that thought, ask them to hold on a minute and listen....see how far you get.....the next time it happens, hold onto the thought and run away!!!!

Er that is a stupid arguement. I also said people need to be punished but that you won't eradicate crime until you tackle its causes.

i didnt put any arguement in place, Im just saying in a realistic situation, a good aul whipping by the guards or whoever would get you out of trouble, trying to reason with them like the approach over here ( or possibly by what you are getting at, telling them i empathise with you, you don't feel part of the community yadda yadda yadda ) " you have to love them, tough love" means fcuk all when confronted by it/situation, its the typical politician/judge ( those that make the law ) living in his nice house, in his nice estate, not using public transport, completely isolated from reality that comes up with these views/arguments.

I do, though, agree you have to tackle the problem deeper, the quick fix DOESN'T work in the long term, but it sure of hell works in the short term ;)

But who's trying to reason with them?

I am not expressing a personal opinion I just think rehabilitation is just talk as current prisions only punish. If you going lock someone away for life there is no point wasting time rehabilitating & I am sure some criminaks cannot be reformed.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

i didnt put any arguement in place, Im just saying in a realistic situation, a good aul whipping by the guards or whoever would get you out of trouble, trying to reason with them like the approach over here ( or possibly by what you are getting at, telling them i empathise with you, you don't feel part of the community yadda yadda yadda ) " you have to love them, tough love" means fcuk all when confronted by it/situation, its the typical politician/judge ( those that make the law ) living in his nice house, in his nice estate, not using public transport, completely isolated from reality that comes up with these views/arguments.

I do, though, agree you have to tackle the problem deeper, the quick fix DOESN'T work in the long term, but it sure of hell works in the short term ;)

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Sums up the Situation I think! A Whole generation, and its been a couple of Generations at this stage, needs to be turned back, and its not going to happen overnight. And yet the problems are very serious. Just imagine what its like to be a person cowering in your own home, afraid of every noise, because gangs are roaming the streets. The Garda are powerless, the parents are on drugs/drink and are powerless, the the Gangs are getting worse and worse as they are untouchables. Add to the mix Drug Lords explioting them, and Guns, bombs and worse, and its not a pretty sight.

ASBOs, and the like do not work, and are worn as badges of honour. That birch, supervised, looks more attractive the more you read. Wee thug wont wear that with pride!

Again IT DOESN'T WORK. Nothing works. Prevention is better than cure.

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Prevension is better than cure

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Don't you mean prevention? My neighbour is a prison guard, he firmly beleives some people are just genetically "bad", I can't fully explain what he means by this as everytime he says it, it still doesnt make sense, but what I think he means is people who are brought up like any other "normal" person, whose sliblings have turned out fine, yet they haven't is who I think he refers too, anyhow his point is that some can't be reformed. actually a lot from what i can make out.

but yes, as a whole if 100 prisoners go into jail and 10 come out reformed that has to be deemed a success. preventing those that got their in the first place is an even bigger success!!!!

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Don't you mean prevention?

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Yes I do. :rolleyes:

Your prison gaurd mate is wrong. He proffesses a scientificly unsound opinion. The sibling arguement is actually proof of the opposite because if it were merely a case of "bad genes" then both siblings would be bad.
The human genome project carried out a couple of years back by genetic scientists refutes the idea that there are bad behaviour genes. Genes in any case need to be switched on and off. For example you may be geneticly disposed to heart disease but you can control that by avoiding things that will trigger it off.

paul_oshea, that was obviously a typo, could you take it up a notch please? I'm presuming we're aiming for a level higher than primary school.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Yes I do. :rolleyes:

Your prison gaurd mate is wrong. He proffesses a scientificly unsound opinion. The sibling arguement is actually proof of the opposite because if it were merely a case of "bad genes" then both siblings would be bad.
The human genome project carried out a couple of years back by genetic scientists refutes the idea that there are bad behaviour genes. Genes in any case need to be switched on and off. For example you may be geneticly disposed to heart disease but you can control that by avoiding things that will trigger it off.

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I was going to suggest sterilisation, but that seems to be pointless either. :(

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Your prison gaurd mate is wrong. He proffesses a scientificly unsound opinion. The sibling arguement is actually proof of the opposite because if it were merely a case of "bad genes" then both siblings would be bad.
The human genome project carried out a couple of years back by genetic scientists refutes the idea that there are bad behaviour genes. Genes in any case need to be switched on and off. For example you may be geneticly disposed to heart disease but you can control that by avoiding things that will trigger it off.

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hmmm, did you know that they removed brocoli from the stores in the states because they ( scientists )beleived it could be cancerous? ( a little more to it than that ) and they also removed cucumber in france in the 90's for the same reason....did you also know that scientists in america recently came out and said women dress more provocatively when they are ovulating? See where IM going with this? As I am sure you don't beleive everything you read, I would even suggest you beleive very little of what you read, anyhow the point is, first hand experience in many different situations, always gives you the individual a better understanding and reasoning of things - beleive it or not. I am not saying that what he says is correct, it is what I was trying to derive from what he was saying. His main point was that he has seen in many cases ( he is an intelligent man by the way, so I would assume he is capable of coming to conclusions on things like this, without just throwing it out there with little or no back-up factual information ) where individuals, are just "bad", what exactly he means by that I am not sure, so the gene thing could be way off.....

Just to add to it, so it isn't individually biased, its a conclusion many prison guards have come to ( again from what he told me ), based on their first-hand experiences....

That digresses from the main point, but prevention is obviouslly better than cure, I just don't beleive we have found that yet ( the best possible form of prevention )......until then a good few slaps will prevent you or I getting mugged/harrassed/intimidated

BohsPartisan, an interesting point you made earlier about "estate" culture ( I assume you got this from such studies ), back home ( where my parents live ) planning permission for 72 houses on the outside of the rezoned land i.e. out past the 40 mph sign, has gone up, and the neighbours are rejecting on a few grounds, privacy, no adequate public access-ways, no public sewage, no amenities, etc etc but the one that surprised me was Anti-social-behaviour, because of its area outside of the town, away from the shops and other facilities, they are proclaiming that this is a haven for anti-social behaviour for those that will live there. I don't see how this is the case really, but I mentioned hte point of what you were saying about communities or lack there-of within estates when I spoke with my mother and she was saying that was one of their main points of objection, which she said has been used in the past successfully in rejecting planning permission for such sites!

One final point, and I don't know where I am really going with this, but, east fingal council is buying up loads of houses from private firms in my home town in roscommon, ever since the locals have noticed a lot more of these sort of what they would probably call "layabouts", it could stem slightly from the whole ignorant outsider mentality, generally hanging about the town, hanging around the pubs, being very noisey within the estates, hard to live beside as neighbours ( beleived to be selling drugs....i know beleived, rumours, maybe or maybe not ) etc, however these people are getting a new lease of life, if you will, down the country and I think this is a perfect opportunity for them to start afresh, yet it doesnt appear that this is the case, there is decent employment in the local factories but it appears that most would rather live on state benefit........the part that i don't like is simply the idead of those up in dublin who think ah well its not our problem if we turf them down the country, sure what harm can they do there, under the watchful eye of the local gardai...yadda yadda...its simply a case of removing one big problem from one big area, and making it a bigger problem in a smaller area, which is even harder to control....

Pick a fight with Iceland at their place, draft our overflow, pack them off to the arctic circle in flimsy summer uniforms, phone the Icelandics and tell them not to turn up, take the phone off the hook and wait for nightfall.

...and that takes care of that problem.

Have to say I find some of the stuff I see going on frankly disturbing.
However I agree with Bohs Partisan and Macy. you have to tackle the roots of the problem. If people realise they are the lowest rung of a society that doesnt care about them then why should they care about anyone else? As well as that I think a serious investment of money and resources into all sports at local and underage level would do something to tackle a lot problems we have in this country.

ya boxing has always been big at home, decent club won a few all-irelands, a lot of travellers have been part of the club actually, and others that were in council estates had something to get involved with, it does work to an extent as they can lamp 15 coulours out of their opponents in the ring, however it doesnt stop them on a friday or saturday night from doing what they do......the one thing that seemed to stop that was Ecstacy, on too good a feeling to bother fighting!!

The short sharp shock is purely a short term solution the long term solution requires much more effort & resources. Unfortunately in our modern society where politicians are only interested in getting re-elected they need/want instant results so we have crap like asbo's being introduced. The long term answer is that people need to have aspirations if at 17 your only aspiration is to get as much out of the welfare state as you can to keep your bird and kid off your back while you go out with your mates for a bit of craic then the system has failed. When teachers, nurses and social workers are paid as poorly as they are is it any wonder that so much of our current society feeld unvalued?

As far as the "bad gene's" argument goes, quite frankly that is complete to$$. I have 2 brothers we are as different in terms of personality as you could imagine but we have almost identical values on what is important in our lives. The reason we have the same values is we grew up in the same house where we were influenced by our parents who instilled the importance of family values. We are now all married and would stand by our respective wives and children through whatever crap comes our way, loads of people will read this and think "so what" but I know lots of blokes who mess their wives around, have walked out on a marriage for what I would call pathetic reasons. Their values are just different than mine, but those values get passed down from your parents, if you have lost a generation which we clearly have it will take 2 or 3 generations to get them back again.

God I sound like Norman Tebbitt:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

BohsPartisan, an interesting point you made earlier about "estate" culture ( I assume you got this from such studies ), .

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No just from personal experience. I live in an estate on that is miles away from any amenities and is populated by people like myself who only see the place in daylight during the summer months and at weekends. Theres a guy living on my street who takes his kid out to kick ball at 9pm for a few minutes in a vain attempt to spend some time with him. The kids who were 9 and ten when the estate was built are now 14 and 15 and you can see the social problems starting to mount. I also have experience of campaigning on developement issues in North County Dublin and if you've been to Lusk you'll see what I mean. Huge estates, literally in the middle of nowhere with the same infrastructure that was there when it was a rural backwater.