Northern players declaring for the Republic

Saw this in the feeds folder, and thought it deserved a thread of it's own - even though it will probably degenerate into anarchy.
The IFA are upset with the FAI calling up players born in the North, under FIFA rules they have to be living in the Republic for 2 year, or have a parent of grandparent born in the Republic. Under the Good Friday agreement (or at least my understanding of it) everyone born in the North is eligible for a passport from the Republic - qualifying them to play for the Republic, and the FAI have documentation from FIFA to back this up.
Article here on bbc's website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...ls/6083842.stm

PS - again just noting my loathing of the terms North and Republic, but here it is necessary to distinguish between Ireland and, err, Ireland
Mods if you feel this is in anyway inappropriate then feel free to remove

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Under the Good Friday agreement (or at least my understanding of it) everyone born in the North is eligible for a passport from the Republic - qualifying them to play for the Republic

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This is my understanding of it as well. Anybody born on this island is entitled to an Irish passport if they want one. In turn, if you have an Irish passport you can play for the national football team. While some of Northern Ireland's youth players are probably swayed by the FAI to play for us there also appears to be a sizeable number who choose to play for us over Northern Ireland simply because they feel that the North's team does not represent them and ours does. I'd say the most annoying thing for their supporters is that a number of these lads play for them up until maybe U19 or U21 level and then change over to ourselves. While I am glad to take the players I would not be at all happy were this the other way around.

[QUOTE=Paulie;562558] Republic of Ireland passport QUOTE]

No such thing as the above, its an Irish passport, and for anyone who lives on the Island of Ireland are entitled to Irish passport.

However they should declare at an earlier age which team they are going to play for.

I suppose a lot of them want to keep both options open.

Darren Gibson is on record as saying that he always dreamt of playing for the Republic but when the opportunity came to play for NI he took his chance but when the ROI called he jumped ship.

If you were born in Derry or Tyrone or Armagh, have an Irish passport then you are entitled to play for Ireland! This might be reversed with the plight of our team at the moment though.....!!!

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

If you were born in Derry or Tyrone or Armagh, have an Irish passport then you are entitled to play for Ireland! This might be reversed with the plight of our team at the moment though.....!!!

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And if you were born in Antrim, Down or Fermanagh? :confused:

After what happened to Neil Lennon who in their right mind would be the next catholic/nationalist (I use these terms loosely) to play for n.i. full international team.

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Originally Posted by Jamjar

After what happened to Neil Lennon who in their right mind would be the next catholic/nationalist (I use these terms loosely) to play for n.i. full international team.

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Personally, I'd have no problem playing for Northern Ireland. I'd have to get called up first though!

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Personally, I'd have no problem playing for Northern Ireland. I'd have to get called up first though!

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So death threats to yourself and family wouldn't bother you ?

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Originally Posted by Jamjar

So death threats to yourself and family wouldn't bother you ?

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I think the fact that he played for Celtic had a lot to do with it. I don't think a Catholic / Nationalist player today would get the same level of abuse / threats. And just because I'm from Dundalk, it doesn't automatically make me a Catholic or a Nationalist...

From BBC today (co-incidence or what?):

"When I look at Windsor Park now it seems a real fun place with a brilliant atmosphere," Lennon told BBC NI Sport.

"The IFA has worked really hard at taking the sectarianism out completely.

"I still think where Windsor Park is situated it can be an intimidating place for Catholics to go. But the IFA have made huge strides.

"I was back in Belfast in June for the first time in two or three years and I was wary of the sort of reception I would get.

"But I had a great time, it was amazing, and I just felt I had wasted a couple of years in not going back really and seeing people there and how warm they are with me."

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Lennon himself admits that there has been changes.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Lennon himself admits that there has been changes.

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Yeh, but he's a thick fúckin' taig from Armagh, so what does he know
:D

The FAI & technical director Packie Bonner should be looking at expanding its national training programmes and training camps into the main urban centres of Belfast & Derry.

Darron Gibson and Marc Wilson grew up supporting Ireland, so what could be more natural than wanting to play for your national team.

Why do the IFA have a problem with young Belfast or Derry lads playing for Ireland now, when they have been playing for years ?

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Originally Posted by co. down green

The FAI & technical director Packie Bonner should be looking at expanding its national training programmes and training camps into the main urban centres of Belfast & Derry.

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Surely the FAI wouldn't be allowed to set up training camps in IFA jurisdiction?

I doubt if the IFA would have any say in what goes on within the Brandywell, for example.

Good thread, i think since the Lennon situation a number of years back , attitudes have changed within the IFA and the true supporters of th northern irish team, the press made there supporters out to be fascists, although Lennon(pre Celtic) like others , Magilton possibly, were around at a time when they would of had difficulties getting into the Irish squad, but it would make any young lad from "the bog" or West Belfast think twice about playing for the north after what happened to lennon, hence the IFA are rebranding themselves and fair play to them, i think it's a far cry from the Billy Bingham days....

yeah, they're great aint they.

they have changed the 'national anthem' (which wales and scotland dont play) they have changed the flag to be an inclusive and representative flag and there are no banners around the ground that would be offensive to nationalists or ordinary non unionist folk.

well done to them.

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Originally Posted by Merc67

yeah, they're great aint they.

they have changed the 'national anthem' (which wales and scotland dont play) they have changed the flag to be an inclusive and representative flag and there are no banners around the ground that would be offensive to nationalists or ordinary non unionist folk.

well done to them.

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GSTQ and the flag are still issues that need to be resolved, but if you genuinely do not realise that things have changed for the better, then I think that you have the problem.
Take the fact that sectarian songs are no longer sung at WP (maybe by individual idiots, but not by the crowd).
Take the fact that the majority of the crowd go there wearing green replica NI tops (rather than Linfield, Rangers, or other 'provocative' tops).

Do you remember November '93? And have you seen any of the recent games? There's simply no comparison.
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On the issue of northern players declaring for the Republic, I don't think they should be restricted at all, but I can see the IFA's point. They are a small association (unlike the English FA, another place the Republic 'pinches'* from) and they should rightly expect to get the international players from their meagre resources.

Perhaps we should let the IFA pick players from the south. They used to do it up until the 50s, so why not? I doubt many payers would actually want to, but if we all agree that we're all Irish of one shade or another (and that is exactly what the Republic is doing when it exercises a right to pick players from the occupied six counties), then why shouldn't other Irish players be available for selction for the other Irish team?



[*for want of a better word.]

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

And if you were born in Antrim, Down or Fermanagh? :confused:

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sorry I just ran out of time to type the other Counties - my boss was lurking! I wasn't excluding the other northern Counties.

I can understand the IFA's frustration at losing players but at the end of the day the peace process is about recognising peoples aspirations and if the young lads aspire to play for the republic then they should be allowed to do so.

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Originally Posted by crc

Perhaps we should let the IFA pick players from the south. They used to do it up until the 50s, so why not? I doubt many payers would actually want to, but if we all agree that we're all Irish of one shade or another (and that is exactly what the Republic is doing when it exercises a right to pick players from the occupied six counties), then why shouldn't other Irish players be available for selction for the other Irish team?

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because the 26 counties are not in disputed ownership, occupied or under her magesties rule and are therefore unable to hold a british passport even if they wanted one. i.e theres no debate over nationality

the reason these lads declare for the 'republic' is because they do not feel that the NI team represents them and feel more associated with the ROI team and hold an irish passport. as long as these are the reasons for the players declaring for ROI it should not be a problem but if we get to a situation where players are declaring for either just to further their carreer or to 'get a game' then we have a problem.

BTW doesn't just apply to NI & ROI - are you listening Clinton "i've narrowed it down to 3 countries now england, ireland or jamica" Morrison

In Women's footie a few years back financial cutbacks at the IFA meant that
they didn't field an Under 17 National team for a couple of years. The net result of that decision was a "generation" of those age bracket players did not get representative football. A handful of those players declared for the Republic and three of them got capped. One of those three Laura Hislop is a current full Republic Of Ireland international. This decision to declare for the Republic, on the part of those players , was in a way forced by the decision of the IFA not to field teams in this age bracket.
A year later the North played the Republic in a friendly in Drogheda, at Under 17 level, just to avoid a repeat of the previous year's experience.

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

BTW doesn't just apply to NI & ROI - are you listening Clinton "i've narrowed it down to 3 countries now england, ireland or jamica" Morrison

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For the record had I had the talent, I am eligible to play for 4 countries.
Born in Dublin ( Republic of Ireland ) Mother born in Belfast( Northern Ireland) Her Dad born in Cairo ( Egypt) and Dad's Mother born in Valparaiso( Chile).
Personally speaking I would have played for the first one that asked me.:p

I understand that the IFA and the FAI are to sit down in the near future to try and thrash this one out.

We are dealing with, rather complicated, FIFA rules on eligibility, not the GFA.

The vast majority of Northern Ireland fans do not care what religion/political background our players come from - if they pull on the emerald green Irish shirt and give 100%, that's good enough.

Our teams at all levels, always have, do and always will contain players from both main traditions in Northern Ireland - I, for one, am very proud of that fact.

I can understand that some "nationalist" kids would rather they play for the Republic Of Ireland - largely on account of their political leanings.

That being the case, I would like to see them make that "declaration" sooner in their careers, rather than later - whatever the rules, it's not right that the IFA are grooming players right up to Under 19 level, for them to then defect to the FAI.

This is an important issue - in recent years the relationship between the IFA and the FAI has been cordial. We've seen the formation of the Setanta Cup etc, which i think most of us would agree has been a very positive development.

It is nobodys interests for those relations to go sour - least of all, I would suggest, those who advocate a "United" Ireland team.

I believe the two Associations will come to an agreement on this matter - let's wait and see.

"Take the fact that the majority of the crowd go there wearing green replica NI tops (rather than Linfield, Rangers, or other 'provocative' tops)."

What, exactly, is provocative about a Linfield top? They're a Northern Irish Club side - the most "mixed" squad currently in the IL.

Would an EL top be frowned upon at a ROI game?

Why someone would ever want to wear the shirt of a Scottish Club at a Northern Ireland game is beyond me, but people are free to wear what they want.

Is a Celtic shirt (of which so many as to be seen at ROI matches), siomilarly "provocative"?

"I think the fact that he played for Celtic had a lot to do with it. I don't think a Catholic / Nationalist player today would get the same level of abuse / threats."

I think you're right - the plaque of Old Firm rivalry.

Two facts:

1/ Northern Ireland teams contain Catholics/Nationalists at all levels. None of them are "abused".

2/ The current Northern Ireland Under 21 Captain is a Glasgow Celtic player.

3/ Neil Lennon publicly recognised the changes that have taken place in recent years only yesterday.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Dad's Mother born in Valparaiso( Chile).

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I though Valparaiso was in Monkstown :)

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Originally Posted by antrimgreen

No such thing as the above, its an Irish passport, and for anyone who lives on the Island of Ireland are entitled to Irish passport.

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You are of course correct. The post has been amended but the basic point still stands.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

For the record had I had the talent, I am eligible to play for 4 countries.
Born in Dublin ( Republic of Ireland ) Mother born in Belfast( Northern Ireland) Her Dad born in Cairo ( Egypt) and Dad's Mother born in Valparaiso( Chile).
Personally speaking I would have played for the first one that asked me.:p

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thats fair enough but usually even if this is the case a player will keep it to himself and at least feign loyalty to the cause with a classic like - i've dreamed of this day since i was a young lad - that what that white fella playing for trinadad & tobago said!

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

2/ The current Northern Ireland Under 21 Captain is a Glasgow Celtic player.

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.... quick sign him up :D

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Two facts:

1/ Northern Ireland teams contain Catholics/Nationalists at all levels. None of them are "abused".

2/ The current Northern Ireland Under 21 Captain is a Glasgow Celtic player.

3/ Neil Lennon publicly recognised the changes that have taken place in recent years only yesterday.

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So which one of the three points you made is not a fact ?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I understand that the IFA and the FAI are to sit down in the near future to try and thrash this one out.

We are dealing with, rather complicated, FIFA rules on eligibility, not the GFA...

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What is there to thrash out? Are you one of these blokes who likes to tell people who to support and who they must play for, purely on the grounds of where they were first dropped? Facts are everybody born in Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport (you can forget about the old 'grandfather born before 1922' b*llocks. I know for a fact that was ignored by any Irish embassy long before the GFA finally consigned that to the dustbin). FIFA has no jurisdiction over who the Irish government hand out passports to. If we're going down that road we might care to look at who the 'British' teams are composed of, and how long some of their players, with no ancestral connection to the 'country' they play for, have lived in that particular country.

One can empathise with your dissapointment in footballers making a qualified decision by themselves to play for another country. I think they'd stand a better chance of getting international caps if they stuck to the North anyway. I don't buy the argument about opting out of the youth team either. I can't for one minute think that this makes anything but a minimal difference in the players' experience (if it did we'd be one of the best national sides in Europe) and given that NI has such a bad press with RCs (true, a lot of it exaggerated) then there is always a chance that RC players being brought in at youth level may well want to stay, despite any political leanings.

Personally, footballers should be congratulated for making decsions on political grounds rather than what's best for bumping up the wage packet. That BTW goes for any of those Finn Harps fans who travel to WP for purely 'political reasons', if they were obviously good enough to play international football, and that was there choice.

PS: Much of the predictable gnashing of teeth can be found on here, for anyone who fancies a laugh. :D

http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/ind...ST&f=2&t=15485

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Originally Posted by Jamjar

So which one of the three points you made is not a fact ?

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That's a good point, well made.:D

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Originally Posted by lopez

What is there to thrash out? Are you one of these blokes who likes to tell people who to support and who they must play for, purely on the grounds of where they were first dropped?

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I would have thought that the two Associations will want to discuss a way forward that negates any ill feeling between the two Associations over this issue.:eek:

I'm sure that will be the outcome of the discussions.

Regarding allegiance/support - my view is that you support whoever you want and play for whoever you want, within FIFA rules.

Anyone who does not feel commited to playing for Northern Ireland is no use to Northern Ireland.

I want the IFA to be more rigourous in ensuring that those who represent us an underage level are commited to persuing their future international career with Northern Ireland - no more grooming for another Association.

not brazil

I agree that those deciding to play for Ireland should declare at an early age. The problem in the past has been that players have been unsure as to the rules regarding eligibility and have played for the North because there was no other set up available for them. Gibson and Wilson being two examples.

As the rules have now been clearly defined, its important for the FAI to take over these young players at an early age and an FAI presence within the areas were these players are, would be an important step in allowing these kids to come under the control of the FAI from an early age.

I think young players will make there own decisions as to what is right for them at international level, and whatever the decision, they should be allowed to get on with their careers without insult or intimidation.

The vast majority of football fans from the Nationalist community in the North support the Ireland team in Dublin and the growing number of kids playing for Ireland at under age level is a simple reflection of this. Its important for all however to accept that we live in a pretty unique situation in the North and an acceptance on all sides that freedom of choice to choose who represents you at international level, is a right & should not be highjacked by those with will use the issue for political,sectarian or personal reasons.

Co Down Green.

"I agree that those deciding to play for Ireland should declare at an early age"

There are two Irish teams on this island. The Republic Of Ireland and Northern Ireland. If anything, the Northern team has more claim on the term "Ireland" - but that's maybe for another day.;)

"As the rules have now been clearly defined"

I'm not so sure they have been "clearly defined". There are mixed messages coming from FIFA on this issue. I think the rules need to be clearly defined in an Irish context.

"I think young players will make there own decisions as to what is right for them at international level, and whatever the decision, they should be allowed to get on with their careers without insult or intimidation."

I agree. The sooner the kids make their decision, the better for all concerned.

"Its important for all however to accept that we live in a pretty unique situation in the North and an acceptance on all sides that freedom of choice to choose who represents you at international level, is a right & should not be highjacked by those with will use the issue for political,sectarian or personal reasons."

Again, I agree. Unfortunately one political party has been busy "warning" the IFA about their handling of this situation.

For me, it boils down to simply this - if a player does not want to play for Northern Ireland, he should be honest enough to declare that early in his career, and let those who do want to commit to the Northern Ireland shirt get on with it.

As I say, the IFA need to be more robust in who they choose to select and groom for international representation.

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Originally Posted by RogerMilla

I can understand the IFA's frustration at losing players but at the end of the day the peace process is about recognising peoples aspirations and if the young lads aspire to play for the republic then they should be allowed to do so.

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But the GFA is also about reconcilliation, and by having, effectively, seperate "nationalist" and a "unionist" international teams we are underscoring segregation and sectarianism. Its a difficult line to tow, but I think people in the north should be free to declare for / follow the Republic, but if, at the same time, they despise / shun / turn their backs on N.Ireland because of its perceived unionist bent (which I feel is not as big a phenomenon as people like to think it is) there is little hope of establishing a normal society.

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

the reason these lads declare for the 'republic' is because they do not feel that the NI team represents them and feel more associated with the ROI team and hold an irish passport

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Why so defensive. I don't think that many players would declare anyway. There was an enormous NI Passports thread where people debated the merrits of allowing NI players to play using (southern) Irish passports. If they can use Dublin issued passports to play for NI, why shouldn't others with the same passport be allowed to?
FWIW, I don't think this is a viable solution, and I didn't expect anyone to take it so seriously. The point I'd like to highlight, however, is that there is more than one kind of Irishness. The southern state has successfully sold itself to most Irish people and the world as the only legitimate version, but this simply isn't the truth.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

What, exactly, is provocative about a Linfield top? They're a Northern Irish Club side - the most "mixed" squad currently in the IL.

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Sorry, there's nothing wrong with Linfield or their top, but did you notice the word 'perceived', and the way I put it in inverted commas? That is how some people feel. Hopefully the actual point of the post wasn't lost on you - that NI supporters are really showing their support for the NI team rather than try to send any other sort of political message by wearing club tops.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Regarding allegiance/support - my view is that you support whoever you want and play for whoever you want, within FIFA rules.

Anyone who does not feel commited to playing for Northern Ireland is no use to Northern Ireland.

I want the IFA to be more rigourous in ensuring that those who represent us an underage level are commited to persuing their future international career with Northern Ireland - no more grooming for another Association.

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I actually don't think the issue is as black and white as you suggest. If a young Derry lad choses ultimately to play for the Republic, it doesn't mean that he hates Northern Ireland and that if he had have been selected he wouldn't have been committed to the side. National allegiange is a mosaic and it is not true that if you love one (the RoI of NI) that you automatically hate the other.

It's a difficult square to circle.

I've explained as best I could over on their board that I don't think I, as a southerner, nor the FAI have any business or right telling a northerner that he can't play for the FAI team because he's from NI. Notwithstanding the FIFA rules are somewhat tighter than just obtaining an Irish passport.

I think it's regretable and unfortunate that lads jump ship so far down the line but they don't appear to be breaking any rule.

Many of them (the NI supporters) believe that the FAI is actively recruiting among their ranks and more specifically in their footballing jurisdiction which I said I doubt is the case and I wouldn't support any move by the FAI to do that.

BUT I don't think we (sorry broad we ...the FAI) should be obliged to turn away anyone who approaches them and who qualifies -just to avoid stepping on toes.

I'm not sure where the middle ground is on this. I thought maybe a deal between the two FA's -extra to any FIFA requirement -that the kid decide after he becomes inelligable for the under 18's or something BUT that creates other difficulties and inequities.

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Originally Posted by Jamjar

After what happened to Neil Lennon who in their right mind would be the next catholic/nationalist (I use these terms loosely) to play for n.i. full international team.

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Are you saying that all those players from a Catholic/Nationalist background who've chosen to play for NI since the Lennon affair are "not in their right minds"? Plus all the Coaches, administrators, managers, IFA employees etc who've also become involved? Oh and the supporters who are beginning to come back, as well. Bugger me, even Lennon himself must be a wee bit "touched", seeing as he came out just the other day to say that the atmosphere around playing for NI has changed out of all recognition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...sh/6085396.stm

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/...-awards-nibfa/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/...wtownhamilton/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/...ament-success/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/football-for-all/

Anyhow, it's nearly November - shouldn't you be preparing for another (5 year) spot of hibernation?

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Originally Posted by crc

Hopefully the actual point of the post wasn't lost on you - that NI supporters are really showing their support for the NI team rather than try to send any other sort of political message by wearing club tops.

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Yes - fans groups have been involved in various initiatives to generate a "Sea Of Green". They have been very successful.

I would have no problem with any fan wearing the colours of any Irish League Club either.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Are you saying that all those players from a Catholic/Nationalist background who've chosen to play for NI since the Lennon affair are "not in their right minds"? Plus all the Coaches, administrators, managers, IFA employees etc who've also become involved? Oh and the supporters who are beginning to come back, as well. Bugger me, even Lennon himself must be a wee bit "touched", seeing as he came out just the other day to say that the atmosphere around playing for NI has changed out of all recognition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...sh/6085396.stm

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/...-awards-nibfa/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/...wtownhamilton/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/...ament-success/

http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/football-for-all/

Anyhow, it's nearly November - shouldn't you be preparing for another (5 year) spot of hibernation?

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I notice Lennon hasn't said he's available for selection though.