North Korea nuclear test.

North Korea has carried out a successful test of nuclear material (not an actual weapon).


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6032525.stm


Oh Jesus!!

To be honest I'd be more worried about the middle east conflict expanding. North Korea is just a stick to wave at the American public to keep them paranoid. I'm totally against nukes no matter who has them, but I love the hypocricy of the US Government going around saying who can and can't have nuclear weapons when they have a nuclear arsenal bigger than the rest of the world put together.

As I live over here, it is a major concern!!

I dont know if the North Koreans have done this to show they must not be taken lightly, or if is just a f##k you to the "West", or just to prove they could, but whatever the reason, I'm worried about a greater build up of nuclear weapons as each country tries to build a proper deterrent to each other.

As I only live about 30 minutes away from the biggest US Navy base outside the USA, I'm not in the best of locations.

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Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

surely the NK'ians having the bomb means the US will back off a touch and leave them in peace thus difusing the situation?

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I wouldn't bet on it!
look at Iraq "they have WMD's I Know lets start a war and give them the perfect opportunity to use them!!"
I sometimes wonder is Homer Simpson pulling GWB's strings

N Korea won't actually use them, they would be wiped out in a matter of hours by everyone else.
What they've done is just ensured that the US won't invade them.
It's, mainly, US foreign policy leaving states like N Korea and Iran of believing that the only way to be safe from invasion is to have nuclear weapons. Would Iraq have been invaded had it had nuclear weapons? I think not.

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Originally Posted by brendy_éire

N Korea won't actually use them, they would be wiped out in a matter of hours by everyone else. What they've done is just ensured that the US won't invade them.

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I agree. Iraq has been a lesson to all enemies of the US that if you have Nukes you safe. I have no doubt Iran is pursuing nukes too which will effectively insure against a US invasion. The difference with North Korea is its a very closed society completely paranoid & may not make the most rational decisions.

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Originally Posted by pete

The difference with North Korea is its a very closed society completely paranoid & may not make the most rational decisions.

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Not dissimilar to the US then.

That a total basket case government like North Korea's is bad news for everyone. Those countries around them that haven't got the bomb may now consider developing it as a deterrent.

It's all well and good talking about the hypocracy of the big powers, but ultimately they're the only ones with any hope of stopping these loo-la's developing insane weaponry and distributing it to similarly nutty regimes. It remains to be seen what can actually be done to a country to convince them to change their ways that doesn't give a toss about it's own citizens short of war, but there's little doubt that this is a very sinister development indeed.

I disagree. I don't think they would be developing the bomb if it wasn't for the threat of invasion from the US. As Iraq has proved the "big powers" (read the US) only make things worse. The US has no problem with India and Pakistan having Nukes and I'd see those two as being more likely to kick off than North and South korea.

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Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

leave them in peace thus difusing the situation?

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Originally Posted by brendy_éire

N Korea won't actually use them, they would be wiped out in a matter of hours by everyone else.

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You seem to be looking at it as if the North Korean government are pragmatic, rational and peace-loving.

I'm sorry to say this but they are insane. Not only do they have a head of state who has been dead for decades, hold rallys resembling Nuremberg and have absolutley no respect for human rights but the only country who has any even slight influence over them is their neighbour who occupies other countries, harvests organs for profits, is responsible for 90% of the worlds executions, forces women to have abortion and shoots down it's own people in the streets (yes it was 1989 but don't think they wouldn't do it again in the same situation tomorrow-they would).

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

The US has no problem with India and Pakistan having Nukes and I'd see those two as being more likely to kick off than North and South korea.

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Not a chance. The Idian government has issues and they Pakistani government may be a weak puppet for the evil fundementalists but both know the score. Neither will risk their nations in nuclear war. King Jong Il is destroying his own country already and doesn't even realise it because he is a power crazed lunatic who thinks he is a mouthpiece for his dead father and their idea of Communism.

I've said it before -South East Asia is a region on the brink of war. Neither the North Korean nor Burmese governments have any rationality at all (the latter of which is developing a nuclear weapon that will now be spead up by North Korea's breakthrough), China is expanding at a huge rate and has spread its pure evil influence into Tibet, Burma, North Korea, Laos and Vietnam, whilst relations between Japan and China, South Korea and North Korea are plummeting rapidly. That's before you even mention Taiwan.

What i'm trying to say is the region is easily as unstable as the Middle East only it has the potential to drag the whole world in on a scale never seen before. The tensions are higher than ever and it'll take one action to plunge the region into a conflict starting the third world war. Kim Jong Il is one of the biggest nutters on the planet and is now sitting bang in the middle with a nuclear weapon.

Who decided that the USA could dictate who can and cant have nukes?

They've a flippin' BodyBuilder as Governor of a state with an economy on par with Germany's and a cowboy for a president :/

I see the UK are asking for UN sanctions now. I don't know what the solution is but seems to be no point in sanctions as will only affect the ordinary citizens.

I agree. They are already starving. This will only drive them into the arms of the government

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Originally Posted by liam88

I've said it before -South East Asia is a region on the brink of war. Neither the North Korean nor Burmese governments have any rationality at all (the latter of which is developing a nuclear weapon that will now be spead up by North Korea's breakthrough)

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Just picked up on this to highlight the general tone of you entire post, that tone of course being one of alarmist nonsense :rolleyes:

Burma building a nuclear bomb

China Being "pure evil"

Spare me your propaganda it looks ridiculous. North Korea developing a nuke is one of the best things that could have happened its (admitedly fairly hard up) citizens in the current world climate.

And if you think North Korea joining the nuclear club is as a result of expansionist Chinese foriegn policy you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about world politics

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Originally Posted by Mizzima

Confirmation from Russia’s atomic agency Minatom this month that talks had resumed with the Burmese military over the development of a nuclear research reactor in the central of the country sent a shockwave through the international community.
The news sparked fears that Burma’s ruling junta was on a path to nuclear proliferation. While the military government said in 2000, they wanted the facility for medical research purposes, many observers are suspicious.

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Originally Posted by Irrawaddy

Perhaps the best example of the military junta’s questionable priorities is its determination to build a nuclear reactor. This project has caused considerable unease in the region, and in centers like Vienna and Washington. Over the past few months, this concern has begun to turn to alarm, as reports have emerged suggesting that the reactor may be built with the assistance of North Korea. This has raised the specter of a future nuclear weapons program that could intimidate Burma’s neighbors and be used as a bargaining chip against the US and its allies.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4921116.stm
http://www.freetibet.org/campaigns/uc061006.html
http://www.buyhard.fsnet.co.uk/forcedabortions.htm

Just a few quotes and links to demonstrate that the Burmese regime's nuclear weapons ambitions and the Chinese regime being pure evil is anything but "alarmist nonsense".

How is the propaganda? I have nothing to gain from it. I've studied the region for some time (half my family being Burmese and having visited China in 2003), and have long been involved in human rights campaigns regarding Burma, China, Tibet and North Korea. This is simply my assesment.

I never said that North Korea gained nuclear weapons as a result of Chinese expansion.

Explain how North Korea developing a nuclear weapon will help their citizens?

Finally I find "fairly hard up" an undestatement regarding the living conditions of citizens under one of the most insane and brutal dictatorships in the world.

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Originally Posted by liam88

China is expanding at a huge rate and has spread its pure evil influence into Tibet, Burma, North Korea, Laos and Vietnam, whilst relations between Japan and China, South Korea and North Korea are plummeting rapidly.

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;)

If anything this nuclear test portrays waning Chinese influence

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Originally Posted by liam88

Just a few quotes and links to demonstrate that the Burmese regime's nuclear weapons ambitions and the Chinese regime being pure evil is anything but "alarmist nonsense".

I never said that North Korea gained nuclear weapons as a result of Chinese expansion.

Explain how North Korea developing a nuclear weapon will help their citizens?

Finally I find "fairly hard up" an undestatement regarding the living conditions of citizens under one of the most insane and brutal dictatorships in the world.

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The North Korean citizens are helped as America (Sorry the "Free World") will now be less inclined to invade their country and butcher all of them

Burma has nuclear ambitions?? You know what so do I. That doesn't mean I have anywhere near the where-withall to build a nuclear bomb ;)

I'll admit conditions in North Korea probably aren't the greatest but have you been there recently?? Realise we're only getting one side of it here in the west.........

Mod Edit: No place for religion in this debate

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Define pure evil? I refuse to take lectures on evil from a Catholic

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Very strange, and offensive sentiments you have there. Try this for pure evil though:

"procedures forced on Tibetan women include infanticide, in which lethal chemicals are injected into a baby's brain, forced abortion after nine months of pregnancy, abortion via electrical rods inserted through the vagina, rusty IUDs that may bring on tuberculosis and other diseases and IUDs left in the uterus for eight years instead of the recommended three."

"Blake Kerr, the US doctor who reported on the situation in Tibet, said the conditions in Tibetan hospitals he visited were "a hygienic atrocity," with bloodstained gurneys and the regular use of non-sterilized equipment. "According to the Tibetan Women's Association, nearly 20 percent of Tibetans may no longer be able to reproduce because of sterilization
procedures," reports the UNF. "One Tibetan woman interviewed by researchers at the Tibetan Administration in Dharamsala, India, said 70 percent of women over age 18 in her village, including herself, were sterilized. In one district, 308 women were reportedly sterilized in 22 days." "

One policy-one example.

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Burma has nuclear ambitions?? You know what so do I. That doesn't mean I have anywhere near the where-withall to build a nuclear bomb.

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But unlike you the Burmese regime has nuclear material from Russia, technolegy from Russia and China and a potential deal with North Korea.

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

I'll admit conditions in North Korea probably aren't the greatest but have you been there recently?? Realise we're only getting one side of it here in the west.........

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I'm basing my assesment on the testimonies of the few refugees who have managed to escape and the people who have actually seen inside North Korea as well as Kim Jong Il's statements and policies. Just look at their food distribution system (closest to the government get food whilst most dissident get none). Any authority on Asian politics or human rights could tell you that North Korea are among the worst. 197 out of 197 on press freedom is just another example.

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Originally Posted by liam88

Very strange, and offensive sentiments you have there. Try this for pure evil though:

"procedures forced on Tibetan women include infanticide, in which lethal chemicals are injected into a baby's brain, forced abortion after nine months of pregnancy, abortion via electrical rods inserted through the vagina, rusty IUDs that may bring on tuberculosis and other diseases and IUDs left in the uterus for eight years instead of the recommended three."

"Blake Kerr, the US doctor who reported on the situation in Tibet, said the conditions in Tibetan hospitals he visited were "a hygienic atrocity," with bloodstained gurneys and the regular use of non-sterilized equipment. "According to the Tibetan Women's Association, nearly 20 percent of Tibetans may no longer be able to reproduce because of sterilization
procedures," reports the UNF. "One Tibetan woman interviewed by researchers at the Tibetan Administration in Dharamsala, India, said 70 percent of women over age 18 in her village, including herself, were sterilized. In one district, 308 women were reportedly sterilized in 22 days." "

But unlike you the Burmese regime has nuclear material from Russia, technolegy from Russia and China and a potential deal with North Korea.

I'm basing my assesment on the testimonies of the few refugees who have managed to escape and the people who have actually seen inside North Korea as well as Kim Jong Il's statements and policies. Just look at their food distribution system (closest to the government get food whilst most dissident get none).

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The first part is pure he said she said speculation

As for Burma if they somehow manage to stumble their way into building a nuclear bomb I'll admit I'm wrong I just can't see it happening though

As for your final point again it's one side of the argument...... You only have to listen to the anti-Castro lobby in Miami to realise that "refugees" often come with agendas and often talk rubbish

Mod Edit: No place for religion in this debate

1. It's not speculation it's proven fact.
2. It's no guarantee they will -all I said is they are trying. I hope they never will and I both hope and think Burma will be restored to democracy before then.
3. I presonally trust statements when the majority of refugees from a country give the same story/account. You're bringing Cuba into it as if it's some kind of utopia -more journalists imprisoned than anywhere else in the world -fact; the accounts of most of those Cuban refugees are true.

Mod Edit: No place for religion in this debate

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Originally Posted by liam88

1. It's not speculation it's proven fact.
2. It's no guarantee they will -all I said is they are trying. I hope they never will and I both hope and think Burma will be restored to democracy before then.
3. I presonally trust statements when the majority of refugees from a country give the same story/account. You're bringing Cuba into it as if it's some kind of utopia -more journalists imprisoned than anywhere else in the world -fact; the accounts of most of those Cuban refugees are true.
4. It's not your anti-clericalism that offends me. You have not demonstrated any anti-clericalism in this thread so I didn't even know you harboured these views. I am offended by the fact that you disregard my views on the basis of my religion; it puts you on the same mentality as racists and bigots. I never brought my religion into this; i never said anything about going to Hell-you brought my religion into this to lower it to a personal level. If you need to resort to that kind of thing it's not worth debating to, talking to or even acknowledging you from this point on.

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Point 1. Prove it to me

Point 2. So do I but without the usual American intervention followed by puppet government followed by coup followed by dictatorship followed by American Intervention followed by............

Point 3. Compared to the rest of Latin America Cuba is a pretty groovy place to live - fact!

Mod Edit: No place for religion in this debate

Lim till i die, leave liam's (and everyone else's) religon out of this. Consider this a warning

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Point 1. Prove it to me

Point 2. So do I but without the usual American intervention followed by puppet government followed by coup followed by dictatorship followed by American Intervention followed by............

Point 3. Compared to the rest of Latin America Cuba is a pretty groovy place to live - fact!

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1. I just gave you quotes by an independent doctor-just a start. I could write you a 60 page report of facts about China's human rights abuses but I'm working on my degree and frankly you probably still won't believe anything unless you see a woman strelised or have electrodes rammed uo her vagina for youtself.

2. American intervention followed by the restoration of the democratically elected government who has the support of 95% of the population is more likely.

3. Unless you're a journalist.

Mod Edit: No place for religion in this debate

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Originally Posted by liam88

1. I just gave you quotes by an independent doctor-just a start. I could write you a 60 page report of facts about China's human rights abuses but I'm working on my degree and frankly you probably still won't believe anything unless you see a woman strelised or have electrodes rammed uo her vagina for youtself.

2. American intervention followed by the restoration of the democratically elected government who has the support of 95% of the population is more likely.

3. Unless you're a journalist.

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1. American doctor ;)

2. They've such a good track record with that sort of thing alright

3. Again show me proofs. Who's to say a lot of these supposed imprisioned journalists weren't trying to subvert the state.

Mod Edit: No place for religion in this debate

Mod erator Warning: Anyone who mentions religion again in this thread gets a ban!

Socialist Article on Korean Nuclear Tests

Two very obvious spellling mistakes in it before any smart comments but overall a good analysis.

Too much to read although i did like the phrase

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capitalist ‘victors’

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:)

Its not that long. Only took me about 5 minutes to read. The guy who wrote it is from County Down.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Its not that long. Only took me about 5 minutes to read. The guy who wrote it is from County Down.

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Ahh, a Northerner, that would explain the spelling and grammar :p

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Ahh, a Northerner, that would explain the spelling and grammar :p

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The Grammar is fine. Bad or no proofreading and the insidious influence of "spellcheck" would explain the two glaring spelling mistakes.
Any comment on the actual article?

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

The Grammar is fine. Bad or no proofreading and the insidious influence of "spellcheck" would explain the two glaring spelling mistakes.
Any comment on the actual article?

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Thought it was good to be honest. Brought up a lot of hypocrisys (spelling?? :o ) which just don't get mentioned in the mainstream media (English Independant excepted)

Back on topic?

I'm rather surprised at the pressure China is putting on Pyongyang, really does show they are making strides in allying themselves to the western world in matters such as this.

With the immense pressure from China, who N.Korea would have been allies with back in the day, South Korea, Japan and the US, it seems only logical the lads will chill out a wee bit.

Also shows, that the US went the wrong way about things, 'twas N.Korea was the threat all along, not Iraq, and in my opinion,certainly not Iran.

We were on topic, the article was about the North Korean Nuclear tests.

The Grammatical and spelling errors were a bit too blazé for me :D

There were two spelling errors, no gramatical errors and your use of the word blazé is altogether baffling.

Back on topic, IMO the biggest threat to the international security is the U.S.A. Biggest nuclear arsenal and the only country to have used a nuclear weapon.

Who'd have thought the lads from Team America could have called this so correctly eh? ;)

The only thing I'd like to add to this thread is that I'm sick and tired of anti-Americans using any little thing as a method to attack that country.

'North Korea, and their insane dictator get their hands on an atomic bomb, sure its only because of big, bad America saying that that murderous tyrant may be a bit evil'.

'Some guy kills some children in Canada, sure that's typical of America'.

'The French armed the RGF in Rwanda, and along with Britain, Russia, America and the UN refused to use the term genocide but let's chuck the whole blame on America, sure why not we're blaming them for everything else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the US, but it's really starting to grate me that whenever something happens that becomes a talking point the conversation constantly turns into a 'did you know that George Bush blah blah blah', or 'that's because America gave them a few crates of orange juice back in the 70s'. Can we never stick to talking about the chosen subject, i.e. North Korea? I mean I remember when America invaded Afghanastan and there was an anti-war protest on North Main St in Cork and two or three people had Iraq flags with a picture of Saddam on it, can no-one else see how ridiculous it's become when you go to an anti-war rally and wave flags of another butchering tyrant, simply because he stands in opposition to America? At this stage I strongly believe that if Hitler was forming his Third Reich nowadays that he'd be able to muster up quite a lot of the, how shall I say this, 'crusty support' simply because he'd have opposed America

No one here is siding with NK but the US is the only country to ever use nuclear weapons. Not to point out that hypocricy would be, well, hypocricy.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

No one here is siding with NK but the US is the only country to ever use nuclear weapons. Not to point out that hypocricy would be, well, hypocricy.

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Truth be told I think you're the only who has made that point BohsPartisan, but really my complaint is about all threads/conversations on any international situation, not just North Korea and/or nuclear capability

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Originally Posted by jebus

Truth be told I think you're the only who has made that point BohsPartisan, but really my complaint is about all threads/conversations on any international situation, not just North Korea and/or nuclear capability

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HE'S WEARING A WIRE!! :eek: :p

Read an excellent article on the whole North Korea situation yesterday by the South Korea Foreign Minister who I believe will be the next UN Chief. was in the Herald Tribune but I cannot find link to.

Anyway he suggested there 3 solutions to crisis.
- Military: Discounted as solution would not supported by neghbours & a lot of people in South Korea & even Japan would die.
- Sanctions: Been done before but not achieved anything. Would only encourage North Korea to sell missle technology as means of raising funds.
- Dialogue: Only possible solution left. Called on the US to learn from history i.e. failure to talk never solved any conflict e.g. USSR, China, Korean War, Vietnam War etc... Said that the US should guarantee the North not be attacked in exchange for ending nuclear programme & allowing inspections. The North has offered this before & should be given a chance to follow through on promises.

Made a lot of sense to me & really showed Bush up as head in the sand type, all rethoric & no results.

Didn't the north renege on similar promises made during the Clinton administration?