Germany First - wise choice?!

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20/08/2006, 8:12 PM
Scram

Germany First - wise choice?!

Stan & Co. stated that it was good tactics to opt to play Germany first in qualifying i.e. before the minnows in our group as we could catch them "on the hop" after the World Cup.

I disagreed totally at the time, mainly because we would have had only 2-3 games under our belt at that time, Kerr could not find his best 11 after 2 years never mind 3 games, players were retiring, new players being "blooded" basically, we needed time to get out best 11 together before meeting Germany.

Hopefully I was wrong but at this point it certainly doesn't look like it, we will have a starting 11 and most certainly a midfield who have had very litlte playing time together and palying against San Marino etc. first would give us time to develop.

Anyway, when have Germany ever been caught on the hop :(

Still, I am optimistic as ever and who knows, like a wounded dog, we might fight out a 0-0.
20/08/2006, 8:53 PM
Forever Dreamin

From other posts the target for 2nd place and automatic qualification is 24 points.

We have 7 games this season -
Germany A - loss
Cyprus A - win
Czech H - win
San Marino H - win
San MArino A - win
Wales H - win
Slovakia H - win

Very difficut but a potential 18 points and Germany long forgotten.
And by the way Im optomisitc that we may hang on for a 0-0 in Stuttgart, but if we are to be hammered better early on and quickly forgotten, the next 4 games are crucial and only the Czech game should be any reason for concern. If we have 12 pts heading into the 1st double header at Croker we will be very happhy and optomisitc of taking the 6 points. This would leave a traget of 6 points from the rest of the campaign, I believe the fixture list is very favourable to us.
20/08/2006, 9:08 PM
pineapple stu

I agree with the decision. We're expected to lose, so what's the worst that can happen? It's an extra - very competitive - friendly for a new manager with no "injuries". Give him one more game to get everything in order ahead of the Cyprus game, which could well define the campaign given the problems they caused us last time!
21/08/2006, 10:50 AM
NeilMcD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever Dreamin

From other posts the target for 2nd place and automatic qualification is 24 points.

We have 7 games this season -
Germany A - loss
Cyprus A - win
Czech H - win
San Marino H - win
San MArino A - win
Wales H - win
Slovakia H - win

Very difficut but a potential 18 points and Germany long forgotten.
And by the way Im optomisitc that we may hang on for a 0-0 in Stuttgart, but if we are to be hammered better early on and quickly forgotten, the next 4 games are crucial and only the Czech game should be any reason for concern. If we have 12 pts heading into the 1st double header at Croker we will be very happhy and optomisitc of taking the 6 points. This would leave a traget of 6 points from the rest of the campaign, I believe the fixture list is very favourable to us.

Good post I think its better to take a hammering at the start rather then a beating at the end or the Business end of the campaign. I think its a good idea no matter what happens. I am still optimistic we can do something over in Germany as I dont think the Holland match is the true picture just like the Swedish game was not the true picture either.
21/08/2006, 10:58 AM
Billsthoughts

Germany A - loss
Cyprus A - win (on the evidance of the last time they played us I cant see how this is a cert)
Czech H - win (its beyond me altogether how you can expect this result)
San Marino H - win
San MArino A - win
Wales H - win(again these games could go either way as we are no better or worse than wales or slovakia.)
Slovakia H - win

Think this campaign will be a wake up call to people on our actual standing in world football. The most we can hope for is that by the end of the campaign we are starting to look like we have a gameplan and that some of the younger players find their feet at this level.
21/08/2006, 11:04 AM
Dr. Ogba

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scram

Stan & Co. stated that it was good tactics to opt to play Germany first in qualifying i.e. before the minnows in our group as we could catch them "on the hop" after the World Cup.

I disagreed totally at the time, mainly because we would have had only 2-3 games under our belt at that time, Kerr could not find his best 11 after 2 years never mind 3 games, players were retiring, new players being "blooded" basically, we needed time to get out best 11 together before meeting Germany.

Hopefully I was wrong but at this point it certainly doesn't look like it, we will have a starting 11 and most certainly a midfield who have had very litlte playing time together and palying against San Marino etc. first would give us time to develop.

Anyway, when have Germany ever been caught on the hop :(

Still, I am optimistic as ever and who knows, like a wounded dog, we might fight out a 0-0.

Its an interesting one alright. If we had played the minnows at the start maybe it would have been a good opportunity to blood the likes of Ireland/McGeady/J O'Brien/McCarthy in competitive matches and also get the points in the bag....On the flipside why not get the supposed most difficult (although personally I think Slovakia away will be tougher) away game out of the way? I suppose time will tell on this one and it depends if Stan is willing to take risks and throw some youngsters in at the deep end...
21/08/2006, 11:56 AM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

its beyond me altogether how you can expect this result

I don't think he's saying he expects it, its more an aim. I certainly think we should be beating the Czechs in Lansdowne. They're nothing special. Obviously we aren't either but we qualified for the 2002 WC with a pretty average squad.
21/08/2006, 1:09 PM
Billsthoughts

dont think the czech team is nothing special. I think they will win the group fairly comfortably.
dont think we are that good at home anymore either.
21/08/2006, 1:49 PM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

dont think the czech team is nothing special. I think they will win the group fairly comfortably.

They're best players are no better than ours. They just have solid players over the rest of the team while we're stuck with O'Shea, Kilbane and O'Brien.
21/08/2006, 2:34 PM
Billsthoughts

I presume you are referring to Duff, Keane and Given? I doubt any of them would get into the Czech 1st team to be honest. did I leave someone out?
Will see how they get on in the qualifiers but I think they will prove to be better than the germans.
21/08/2006, 4:06 PM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I presume you are referring to Duff, Keane and Given? I doubt any of them would get into the Czech 1st team to be honest.

Duff and Keane would walk into the Czech team. Given wouldn't get into the Czech team but Cech wouldn't get into our team, they're both of similar quality. Finnan would be in their too without a doubt.

Czech's best 5 vs their opposite numbers:
Cech - Given
Jankulovski - Finnan
Rosicky - Duff
Baros - Keane
Koller - Doyle

All similar quality players with the exception of Koller and Doyle. I was hoping Koller would retire but he's 33 now and has had problems with injury (only played 6 times last season). He can't be the same player.
Their 'weaker' players are just higher quality to ours but as I said, they're nothing special imo. :)
21/08/2006, 4:12 PM
NeilMcD

I think you can play a midfield with Rosicky and Duff does, Rosicky play left wing. I would have keane over Baros any day of the week. I think Given and Czech are about the same with possibly Czech just getting there for height. I think Dunne would make the Czech team also. Finnan would make their team also. I think they have better 2nd rate players then we do and more importantly they are more of a team than we are at the moment.
21/08/2006, 4:37 PM
Billsthoughts

doyle one of our best players? He must a played a couple of season I missed.
totally unproven at the moment.
Keane hasnt had one good whole season ever.
He rarely delivers in big games for ireland either. Im not saying he is rubbish but he deffo would not walk into any of the major teams in europe. The Czechs bein one of them.Baros was golden boot winner at euro 2004.
Jury out on Duff at the moment as he has been off his best for a long while now. so again on recent form he wouldnt get into the czech team. Big differance between when Arsenal come looking for ya and when Newcastle want ya!
21/08/2006, 4:43 PM
Junior

Doyle is Koller's opposite, it was Koller that was in the Czechs top 5 players not Doyle being one of ours, thoug to be honest he probably isn't far off it despite hardly having played and that says something!
21/08/2006, 7:53 PM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

doyle one of our best players? He must a played a couple of season I missed.
totally unproven at the moment.
Keane hasnt had one good whole season ever.
He rarely delivers in big games for ireland either. Im not saying he is rubbish but he deffo would not walk into any of the major teams in europe. The Czechs bein one of them.Baros was golden boot winner at euro 2004.
Jury out on Duff at the moment as he has been off his best for a long while now. so again on recent form he wouldnt get into the czech team. Big differance between when Arsenal come looking for ya and when Newcastle want ya!

Jaysus, you'd think you were actually biased against Ireland the you're talking. :) Junior explained the Doyle inclusion, I was looking at the Czechs top 5 players. Keane is better than Baros, no doubt about that imo. Of course he's had one good season. He has been with Spurs for 4 seasons now and has been top scorer and player of the year 3 times.
Duff would walk into the Czech team, no question. He'd also definitely be one of their best players. He's still a top class player, you don't lose your ability over night. I think you'll find that Liverpool, Spurs, Valencia and Inter Milan wanted him too.
22/08/2006, 8:55 AM
Billsthoughts

player of the year at spurs? in the land of the blind and all that.....:D
As for Duff Newcastle were only club he was guaranteed regular football.
Anyway we are both only giving opinions. proof of pudding will be in the qualifiers......
22/08/2006, 9:02 AM
NeilMcD

I think Eirebhoy is basing his opinions on facts as much as possible Of course football does come down to opinions at the end of the day but I think if you can back it up with as many facts as possible it always helps. I do think that the Czechs have a better team than us for a few reasons. One of them is that their 2nd rate players are better than ours and also they are more of a team than us and have a clear way of playing. Finally they have a more experienced coach.
22/08/2006, 9:27 AM
Billsthoughts

I would take a wild guess that the only reason you are calling them "their second rate players" is cause you know arse all about them and have rarely seen them play. hows that for a fact. we will see in the qualifiers.....
22/08/2006, 9:39 AM
NeilMcD

The term second tier would suit better I think. I saw about 3 or 4 of their qualifiers last term and their 3 games in the world Cup and all of the Euro 2004 games. I have also seen various players in Champions League games and a few domestic games throughout Europe. I was not having a pop at them I was saying they are better players than our o Sheas Kilbane, O Brien, Stepen Reid, Carrs, Kavanagh. Meaning that there squad is strong than ours. We have 5 very good players after that we struggle. The Czechs dont seem to struggle as much after their top players.

Also you dont know what games I do or dont watch.
22/08/2006, 9:51 AM
Billsthoughts

still dont agree we have better players. and have not heard one "fact" to prove otherwise.
22/08/2006, 9:59 AM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

As for Duff Newcastle were only club he was guaranteed regular football.
Anyway we are both only giving opinions.

Duff would have been a key player for Valencia, Inter and Liverpool - my opinion. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I would take a wild guess that the only reason you are calling them "their second rate players" is cause you know arse all about them and have rarely seen them play. hows that for a fact. we will see in the qualifiers.....

In my case that is mostly true but I do know some SPL players like Bednar, Jarosik, Skacel and Sionko that have been part of recent squads and they don't worry me. Smicer will be back in their squad when back from injury too. Jankulovski has been a bit part player since joining Milan, starting only 7 of their many games. That can't be good for him.

This is all from me saying the Czechs are nothing special, I stick by that. :) They're a good team but we should be aiming to beat them at home.
22/08/2006, 10:18 AM
Billsthoughts

No I dont agree on the duff thing. And I assume ,as he went to perrenial no hopers newcastle, he didnt agree either. Take off your Ireland/celtic tinted glasses for one second. He hasnt performed for Ireland in a long while and thats by his own admission. I look forward to reading your posts after czech games. I would say we have more chance of beating Germany in the next game than in either of czech games.

So to get back to the original point -I think it was a good idea to take the germany away game first. the only problem is we should have played a few more friendlies so as to get accross the way Staunton/Robson want us to play to the players.
22/08/2006, 1:41 PM
Forever Dreamin

according to paper reports today Stan tried organisng extra friendlies but couldnt do so unless he was going to play his established team!
22/08/2006, 4:24 PM
Billsthoughts

I cant imagine the opposition would have wanted our "star" players to appear?? I feel that could have been more an FAI demand......
22/08/2006, 4:36 PM
Forever Dreamin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I cant imagine the opposition would have wanted our "star" players to appear?? I feel that could have been more an FAI demand......

Its down to money isnt? An Irish B team wont attract a crowd - no crowd no gate receipts no match!

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