Do people here honestly believe...

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18/08/2006, 11:30 PM
joema

Do people here honestly believe...

Do people here honestly believe that most of the Irish players didnt try against the Dutch?

I cant believe the amount of people on this site who believe that the players werent trying/ didnt care/ werent commited enough

IMO effort is not something that is obvious to the eye - each player is different for eg with players like Gattuso and Roy Keane you can always see that they are giving 100% to the cause - this is immediately obvious in the way they play.

However with other players - eg Steve Carr, John O'Shea ( who are both often accused of not caring on this site) this effort is not as obvious as it is with the likes of Roy Keane.

This is not to say they dont care as much - its just not as obvious to the eye as they play the game in a more controlled way.

Seriously, I think a lot of "supporters" on this site should stop criticising the players for lack of effort and ask themselves do they honestly believe that some players were not tottaly commited against the Dutch.

We lost 4-0, not because of a lack of effort but because we were outclassed, simple as that.

Lay of the players and give them a break ffs. I can guarantee you every one of them gave 100% against the Dutch
18/08/2006, 11:41 PM
fergalr

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

Do people here honestly believe that most of the Irish players didnt try against the Dutch?

Can't speak for "people here" but IMHO most of the Irish team on Wednesday did not try hard enough.
19/08/2006, 9:16 AM
Junior

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

I can guarantee you every one of them gave 100% against the Dutch

How can you? Don't talk $hite. You might have an opinion that they did, and those that think otherwise are equally entiteld to theirs.

EDIT: Oh, and Carr 'controlled' football? Give me a break...........
19/08/2006, 11:13 AM
DotTV

They werent outclassed, they didnt try hard enough.
If they were trying hard enough the Dutch wouldnt have acres of space every time they got the ball.
The Dutch didnt look too classy when portugal started kicking a few lumps out of them.We should have been doing the same.I know its not pretty but we never got this badly whipped under Charlton's "put em under pressure" philosophy.
Every continental team think Ireland is a tough physical team but in reality we're not, we're weak if anything.That needs to change.
19/08/2006, 11:18 AM
pete

The team was inadequately lead by their Manager which is where it started.

Carr, O'Shea, O'Brien, Kavanagh, Reid & Morisson did not look bothered one way or the other.
19/08/2006, 12:30 PM
joema

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junior

How can you? Don't talk $hite. You might have an opinion that they did, and those that think otherwise are equally entiteld to theirs.

EDIT: Oh, and Carr 'controlled' football? Give me a break...........

Ok fair enough I cant guarantee they did but I firmly believe every player out there gave 100% to the cause. IMO this "they didnt care attitude" is a bit sad - do ye honestly believe the players dont go out there and give it everything for the green shirt?? Effort is not something that is obvious to the eye and each player plays in their own way.

And I didnt mean Carr plays controlled football - I mean that he goes about his game in a more controlled manner - i.e he doesnt run around the pitch covering every blade of grass unlike the likes of Roy Keane because thats not the way he plays - that is not to say he doesnt care as much as the rest of the team its just not as noticable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete

The team was inadequately lead by their Manager which is where it started.

Carr, O'Shea, O'Brien, Kavanagh, Reid & Morisson did not look bothered one way or the other.

Im not talking about the manager

Thats exactly my point - they didnt "look" bothered - how can you measure effort - it is not something that is obvious - just because Carr and O' Shea for eg had bad games doesnt mean they were not bothred
19/08/2006, 12:39 PM
Roverstillidie

in a word - yes
19/08/2006, 12:49 PM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete

Carr, O'Shea, O'Brien, Kavanagh, Reid & Morisson did not look bothered one way or the other.

I can count about 8 tackles from Reid and Kavanagh in the first half where they went full out. They didn't do great on the ball but they did put themselves about off it. O'Brien and O'Shea played as they always will play, they're not aggressive players. This was a poor Ireland team, they don't know how to give anything less than 100% but they weren't good enough.
19/08/2006, 1:13 PM
joema

Quote:

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I can count about 8 tackles from Reid and Kavanagh in the first half where they went full out. They didn't do great on the ball but they did put themselves about off it. O'Brien and O'Shea played as they always will play, they're not aggressive players. This was a poor Ireland team, they don't know how to give anything less than 100% but they weren't good enough.

Spot on eirebhoy, hit the nail on the head

Pete, to say Kav didnt give 100% is crazy - nobody cares more than him - he stood on the North terrace himself as a boy and supported the team - do you really think he doesnt care enough?????
19/08/2006, 1:42 PM
pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

Pete, to say Kav didnt give 100% is crazy - nobody cares more than him - he stood on the North terrace himself as a boy and supported the team - do you really think he doesnt care enough?????

As I have said my main gripe was with the Manager. Surely all the players are irish suipporters as they are irish? :confused:
19/08/2006, 1:46 PM
joema

As I have said I am not talking about the manager - look at the title of this thread - Yes all players are Irish supporters and as a result Im convinced that they give 100% every game, to say that the likes of Kavanagh are not bothered is ridiculous
19/08/2006, 2:39 PM
DotTV

How can you say they werent good enough.
Kavanagh and Reid were some of the best players for their respective clubs last season now all of a sudden they turn out a crap performance three days before the start of the premiership.
Methinks their minds were somewhere else...
19/08/2006, 6:05 PM
joema

Quote:

Originally Posted by DotTV

How can you say they werent good enough.
Kavanagh and Reid were some of the best players for their respective clubs last season now all of a sudden they turn out a crap performance three days before the start of the premiership.
Methinks their minds were somewhere else...

Are you serious? Just because they were good last season does not mean they are going to play really well every game ffs - they are not machines ffs.
Also while Reid didnt have the best of games he was not "crap" IMO

Minds somewhere else?? Come on think about it, no player is guaranteed of a spot for Germany game and Im sure the likes of Kavanagh anyway were busting themselves to show Stan that they can do a job for us in the next game
21/08/2006, 11:49 AM
Donal81

I don't go in for the shrill caterwauling of others on this site screaming for heads after a few minutes of football but I don't believe that every player gave 100% the other night.

Kavanagh was poor but only as poor as most of the team. He put in one or two good tackles but was generally poor. I'm not sure if he wasn't bothered, though.

Clinton didn't seem overly hassled throughout the game.

For the entire game, players stood off the Dutch. I can't remember the amount of times that a Dutch player simply ran by one or two Irish players who didn't even make a tackle.

We have good players who all play in the two top tiers of professional British football, they know how to make a tackle. A lot of them chose not to the other night.

If you're a pro footballer, maybe it's difficult to motivate yourself for a friendly, when your mind is probably on getting your place for the Premiership starting the next weekend. I'll put it down to that and not wanting to get injured.

I'm going to forget that game and move on. I don't remember ever judging Kerr on his victories in friendlies, I'm not going to start judging Staunton on his.
21/08/2006, 12:44 PM
DotTV

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

Are you serious? Just because they were good last season does not mean they are going to play really well every game ffs - they are not machines ffs.
Also while Reid didnt have the best of games he was not "crap" IMO

Minds somewhere else?? Come on think about it, no player is guaranteed of a spot for Germany game and Im sure the likes of Kavanagh anyway were busting themselves to show Stan that they can do a job for us in the next game

Nobody on that Irish team "busted themselves" to do anything against Holland.
21/08/2006, 2:07 PM
RogerMilla

as long as they bust themselves on saturday week no-one here will care
21/08/2006, 2:19 PM
DotTV

That's true
21/08/2006, 2:24 PM
joema

Agreed but I still believe the players gave their all against the Dutch
21/08/2006, 4:48 PM
youngirish

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

Agreed but I still believe the players gave their all against the Dutch

Are you really Steve Carr or John O'Shea?
21/08/2006, 4:58 PM
elroy

I dont expect players to give 110% in a pre season friendly, however i dont expect them to put up such an inept performance as last week. Particularly as this was the last friendly before the German game, alot more effort shouldve been shown.
21/08/2006, 5:00 PM
DotTV

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

Agreed but I still believe the players gave their all against the Dutch

C'mon joema! Think about it. How many times did you see a Dutch player in acres of space.Our defenders looked like traffic cones for the goals we conceded.
If that is the best Ireland can do then we are goosed, bigtime!
21/08/2006, 7:59 PM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by DotTV

C'mon joema! Think about it. How many times did you see a Dutch player in acres of space.Our defenders looked like traffic cones for the goals we conceded.
If that is the best Ireland can do then we are goosed, bigtime!

I personally thought that was the best the defence could do. Can you think of a worse central defensive partnership to line out for Ireland in the last couple of decades?
21/08/2006, 9:55 PM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I personally thought that was the best the defence could do. Can you think of a worse central defensive partnership to line out for Ireland in the last couple of decades?

Babb and Breen VS Scotland in 2000?
http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=284313
21/08/2006, 10:56 PM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Babb and Breen VS Scotland in 2000?
http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=284313

I'd still have O'Shea-O'Brien as the weaker pair. They both may be a bit stable when partnering someone like Cunningham but as a partnership they're like headless chickens. Breen, for all his faults, can still lead the line.
22/08/2006, 1:13 AM
joema

Quote:

Originally Posted by DotTV

C'mon joema! Think about it. How many times did you see a Dutch player in acres of space.Our defenders looked like traffic cones for the goals we conceded.
If that is the best Ireland can do then we are goosed, bigtime!

Think about it - just because the Dutch players had space does not mean that the players didnt care!!!
Maybe its because our two centre halfes (in particular) played sh!t as they are both extremley limited players and the technically superior Dutch were simply too good - we were outclassed - a blind man could see that - if you play a poor team including the likes of O'Brien, O'Shea, Morrisson etc. against one of the best teams in the world

We didnt lose because of a lack of effort, we lost because we had a poor team out and were playing against some of the best players in Europe

Seriously, do you think you can judge how hard a player is tryng just by looking at him???

Once again each player is different and plays in their own way - just because some players e.g O'Shea and Carr are not aggresive does it mean they dont care???
22/08/2006, 1:15 AM
joema

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

Are you really Steve Carr or John O'Shea?

Do you really think the players didnt care enough? We were outclassed, simple as that. Get over it
22/08/2006, 9:32 AM
Donal81

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

Do you really think the players didnt care enough? We were outclassed, simple as that. Get over it

I'm going to disagree with you here Joema, I don't think it's that simple. The Dutch have a great young team but they're not so much better than us to easily beat us 4-0. We had a weak team out, sure, but not that weak.

I watched plenty of Irish players stand by while Dutch players ran past them. The Dutch player didn't outwit them with some funky trick - they simply didn't bother to tackle him. Clinton Morrison was probably the worst offender for this but there were plenty of contenders for that title.

Again, it was a friendly, we should try and forget about it and make better judgements based on games that matter. But I don't think we were simply outclassed.
22/08/2006, 9:43 AM
Junior

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

Seriously, do you think you can judge how hard a player is tryng just by looking at him???

Likewise, how can you be so convinced they were giving 110% effort? do you have inside information or something? Im guessing that those who think players were not trying hard enough had the same basis for their opinion as you do. i.e. watching the performance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joema

Do you really think the players didnt care enough? We were outclassed, simple as that. Get over it

joema, you've made your point, the same point, on quite a few posts. Perhaps you should get over it??

"Outclassed, with not enough effort or organisation" as far as I am concerned!
22/08/2006, 9:54 AM
DotTV

I know we didnt have a good team out and it was one of the worst central defensive pairings in years but a lot of the lads didnt look like they were giving it their all.
You don't have to be a brilliant player to close down space and pick up your man.Mainly, you need to be fit and have a decent level of awareness.Considering all players would have just come through pre season training they should be as fit as fiddles so then it comes down to bad awareness on the pitch.Another way of saying that is lack of concentration.
22/08/2006, 10:01 AM
endabob1

It was a crap team and they were outclassed, O'Brien & O'Shea is a terrible option at centre back (I still have nightmares about Ian Hartes tenure in that position under McCarthy).

The truth is a week before the premiership season starts how many players are going to risk injury?
22/08/2006, 11:39 AM
DotTV

The dutch didn't hold back
22/08/2006, 12:05 PM
shakermaker1982

I'd say we were outclassed and outfought the other night - let's face it we have three excellent players in the form of Robbie, Given and Duff..... The rest (excluding Dunne and Finnan) are on the whole an above average bunch at best. Ireland have never compared well in terms of world class players when up against the big guns but our work ethic and teamwork have pulled off famous victories over England, Italy and the Dutch etc etc. This was lacking last Wednesday - no fire and very little committment. I just pray the German game will be totally different and somebody needs to have a word with O'Shea and O'Brien and tell em to get stuck in.
22/08/2006, 12:20 PM
ccfcman

If I got paid ridiculous amounts of money @ work, and had to go do an unpaid, pointless foxer for some one, and get criticised no matter what I did, I couldn't be arsed either :/

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