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Last year Lampard was inexplicably named the 2nd best player in the world and as he said himself "there's no higher honour than that". Having watched the World Cup and knowing Handsome Jose's penchant for 3 central midfielders, the question is will Frank get a game ahead of Makele, Essien and Ballack?
I think as a leading member of international football's "Greatest Midfield in the World... Ever!" he'll keep his place but which one of the three above should feel hardest done by?
There's no way that JM will drop Makelele - he is the fulcrum for everything they do. Essien runs like the wind from box to box (and back again) for the whole game and covers even more ground than Lumpard across 90 minutes. Ballack's ego means that despite the filthy lucre on offer he wouldn't have signed for anything less than a starting position.
Essien it is then. I just can't see the Chosen One dropping Fat Frank - after all, what would The Sun say...? :rolleyes:
:ball: PP
I think the one to miss out is Makelele,Derek McGovern made a great point in the mirror after the Barca CL game he said that Chelsea would never win the
Champions league with him playing because the midfield can never have enough quality going forward or cause the opposition enough problems with him playing.He protects the back four brilliantly but why Would a back four
Like Chelseas need protecting at the expense of a (more)attacking midfielder
In the league it will be mix and match any combination is good enough to
win the league but in the latter stages of the CL he will go.
Having said all that Lampard is still hugely overrated by the English media
Think the holding midfielder is MORE important in CL than Premiership. Barca had Edmilson/Marquez, Liverpool had Alonso/Hamann, Milan had Gattuso, Juve had Emerson and basically every other team that has reached the final has had one. Look at every half decent international team. All have a defensive midfielder (Makele, Costinha, Mascherano, Edmilson, Frings, and this has been the case for years) Makele is perfect in this position and Jose knows it.
As an aside I think Chelsea's gear is done byadidas next season. ballack and Lampard are two of their highest profile players.
Lampard has not been performing well for months now. He should have been dropped by Sven during the WC. His performances for Chelsea have been average during the second half of last season. It would make more sense for Mourinho to drop Lampard because that's the role that Ballack will more than likely be playing. However, I think that Mourinho will be playing with a system without any wingers to accomodate the four CM.
That's no aside Dodge. The commercial angle is the main driver these days, as the World Cup has shown all too clearly. Expect the two players you name to be ever-present in 2006/07 but not for footballing reasons. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
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All the players you named while i wouldnt call them all holding players
offer more than Makelele going forward score more goals than him and create
more chances than him.He offers diddley squat and you are basically playing
with five defenders leaving the other 3 midfielders with a huge task to create something
You're kidding, right? Do you actually watch football?Quote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
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Attacking wise i was talking about
I was discussing problems in selection Chelsea have
Tune in
And so was I. Watch what he does when he wins the ball. His passing is crisp and his distribution is excellent. Nine times out of ten he'll find one of the pacy boys to break towards the opposition's area. Short of doing the forwards' jobs for them, it doesn't come much more attacking than that. And all done with efficiency and in double-quick time. Watch again and you'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
When it comes to being "in tune" I'm on DAB. Sounds like you're back in the day on CB. 10-4 good buddy. :rolleyes: :pQuote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
:ball: PP
Don't let this descend into namecalling BUT if you think Makele offers "diddly squat" going forward, you don't deserve to be in this discussion.
Essien,Lampard and Ballack could all do what he does and more.
Dodge i would say he wins it and gives it to players who are more creative than him,Cant remember him ever scoring or ever setting up a goal or a goal scoring chance.Im not saying hes a bad player but if i had to pick a side to win the Champions League and i had Lampard,Ballack and Essien to chose from
I think they are all better players
Gattuso is in the Milan/Italy team to do most of his work off the ball. Pirlo plays the holding role while Gattuso goes around breaking up play. He doesn't do very much attacking wise either.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
I think you're underestimating the job of a holding midfielder. On the ball he has to stay in the best position possible to receive a pass, off the ball he has to basically harass the opposition. Lampard is one of the worst tacklers in the premiership so certainly couldn't play his role. Ballack's best attributes are attack. Maybe Essien could play it in the future but atm he's a box to box player and that's his best role.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
Lampard could never do what Makelele does. How often do you see him getting stuck into opponents. Every team needs a holding midfield player to be succesful(some teams in the WC have been using two). In addition to protecting the back four, he will brake up the opposition attacks and retain possession of the ball. Without the ball you can do 'diddly squat'. Looks at all the teams to have won the Premiership in the last ten years. Man Utd's most important player was God(Keano to all you atheists), Arsenal's was Vieira and many would argue that Makelele was Chelsea's.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
England's biggest failing at international level was their lack of a holding midfield that would have given the rest of the midfield freedom going forward.
Gatusso gets up and down the pitch and does it he doesnt just sit in front of the back four the whole match!
Yeah, because that's what Pirlo does. Pirlo has played 475 passes this WC, Gatusso has played 312. Gatusso gets up and down the pitch because he's one of the fittest footballers on the planet (he trains 3 hours more than his teammates afaik) but he doesn't contribute virtually anything in an attacking sense. You can't really compare any team with Milan/Italy. Pirlo and Gatusso are like bread and butter. Pirlo is an Alonso type player but still needs a tackler in there beside him.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
Mascherano of Argentina was hardly a creative player. He just got the ball and laid it off too.
I agree with 99.9% of the above but I'm going to be pedantic about something that was always got my goat up. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge
Patrick Vieira never played as a holding midfield player in a championship winning Arsenal team. The only time he's played that role for a long period of time was due to Gilberto's prolonged absence when he partnered the youthful Cesc in 2005.
In 1998 Emmanuel Petit played the holding role fantasically alongside Vieira. In 2002 Arsenal used a number of holding players in that role including Gilles Grimandi, Ray Parlour, Edu and even Martin Keown at one stage. In 2004 it was of course the turn of Gilberto.
I don't think its a coincidence that Vieira's last year at Highbury which is often described as below bar was also the only season where he played an unfamiliar role as a holding player. It's also a major reason why I find the usual, like for like, Keane Vs Vieira comparisons utter nonsence.
Other than that little 0.1% side issue, your on the money and I agree the role of a competent holding player is vital in the Premier League.;)
In fairness karlos, I always knew Vieira rarely played the holding role (same goes for his time with Juve) but Keane had only started playing the holding role in the latter part of his career too. It's fine to compare the 2 players. At Celtic Keane was back to his old box to box self and he was superb.
a small quibble from me too but i agree with this assessment i've read of pirlo/alonso-type players, i.e. they are deep-lying playmakers rather than "holding" players (EBhoy alluded to this i believe). makelele and gattuso aren't exactly alike but they are probably as similar as the former two are to each other.. the deeper playmakers aren't as athletic but are capable of the longer, precise pass and are the true creative metronome of their teams. makelele is fantastially fit/athletic and breaking up play with swift (often short) distribution is his forte. watching pirlo in this wc, he often gets the ball from the back four and finds totti who attempts the one-time spinning looper over the top to gila or toni, expediting play in midfield to the maximum. probably discussing things that defy classification here but interesting nonetheless.:ball: :) :ball:
God observation Ken. I think (could be wrong) Ancelotti introduced Pirlo to this role when he took over Milan as he wanted to include Rui Costa and Pirlo in the team.
Coaches frequently ask players to take on unfamiliar roles in order to put their best XI on the park. However as a wise( well Kevin Keegan was on this point anyway) former England manager once wrote in an article for Shoot when he was still a player. The point he made was signing up all Eleven best players in England would not necessarily become the best team. Egos for one but sometimes it's a blend of players that produces the best team. A combination of talents.
Like Rochdale last season.The best team in the League but couldnt play together.
Yeah Pirlo was an attacking midfielder in his Inter daysQuote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
All this talk of Lampard offering more than Makelele is complete and utter ********....can't tackle, can't pass and remains anonymous most of the game until he invariably pops up with a jammy goal....he's probably one of the most overrated and overhyped players around....
can't say b.ollocks? thats a load of b0llocks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba
I'm sure lampard can say b0llocks. he's not bad surely
Agree. I've long despaired at the confusion between "holding" and "playmaking". It seems the only accepted description of a playmaker these days is one who plays between midfield and the front two but I don't see why "playmaking" can't be further back. Not that I'd hold him in the same esteem as the namers mentioned above but I've always felt Graham Kavanagh is far more of a "playmaker" than "holding" player.Quote:
Originally Posted by ken foree
Agree also with eb's description of how Keane's role has evolved.
I think the measure of how good a holding midfielder is is not necessarily in how well they tackle - it is more to do with their passing and overall use of the ball. Didi Hamann was an outstanding holding midfield player and Liverpool always performed much better when he was there because the other midfielders (Gerrard especially) had such confidence in his passing (he hardly ever gave the ball away) that they were more comfortable going forward to support the attacking players.
As to who will get dropped in Chelsea's midfield - I suspect that when it comes to the big crunch Champions League games you may find Lampard 'needs a rest' or is struggling with some kind of injury that necessitates him sitting it out ;)
I think Lampard is getting a bit of a hard time here. If you look at it in context. Over the past 2 saesons on a game per game basis he has been the most consistent midfielder in the premiership. He has also scored more goals than 80% of strikers in the preimership. Ok, he had a bad world cup, but so did Ronaldinho, crespo etc, give the lad a break.
Lets put it this way, if he was Irish I'd be thrilled..
to be fair to Lampard the lad has been over worked over the last two seasons and it showed towards the end of last season and at the world cup.
With the arrival of Ballack this will alow josie to rest lampard from game to game.
Ibelieve we will see a better lampaard as a result, one thing is for sure he won't be found wanting. His work rate is 100%.
Even in the world cup he never gave up even thou this was a tied Lamps like the boy called Ronnaldino.
By the way good players don't go bad over night,they need to recharge.:)
In fairness I certainly think he's a terrific player (and I started this thread) BUT the pooint of it was he's not as good as the English media make out. IMO he's not one of the best 2/3 midfielders Chelsea have but by no means does that make him bad...Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB
I've always thought he was a little two-dimensional when held up against the likes of Gerrard and Ronaldinho ... but, yeah, if he was Irish I'd be very very happy alright!!
Pre-Mourinho I used to think Lampard was massively overrated. Understandable as he's English and the English, like ourselves, like to talk up their players' abilities. I actually saw him a few times under Ranieri. He rarely impressed me in terms of his all round game but there are certain things he did very well.
For a midfielder he's always had a very good eye for goal and he times his runs into goalscoring opportunities brilliantly. Very like Paul Scholes at his peak, or even David Platt. All 3 have (or had) a great knack of arriving late, hence unmarked. He's also an excellent deliverer of a ball. But as an all round midfielder he's no great shakes. Not bad by any means but far from world class. And yes, I'd love if he was Irish but he's only up for scrutiny because of his profile (World no. 2 etc.)
But Mourinho has really go the best out of him by having such a sound defensive midfield behind him and having such good wide options beside him. This allows Lampard to focus on his strengths and to his great credit he has thrived for Chelsea in those circumstances.
Sven never saw it like this though. He just sees him as an all round midfielder and the lack of a defined support roles for his team mates means the flaws in his game are accentuated, or more importantly, the strengths in his game aren't isolated. Myabe a couple of goals in Germany (which he could easily have got) would have changed the perception of how he played, but it wasn't just his errant shhoting. His passing was poor and frequently inaccurate or overhit. And he just didn't impose himself. Against T&T his supposed class should really have showed and it didn't. Whatever you say about ronaldinho's World Cup, I think it's inconceivable he wouldn't have done something against T&T.
I think there's a message for Staunton here: we've players like McGeady, A. Reid, Miller or Stephen Ireland who have a lot to offer creatively in the last third but might not be trusted to survive the full rigours of an international midfield scrap. If you can build the rest of the team to compensate for this while freeing up the space for this kind of player to attack maybe this'd get the best out of this type of player.
Very good post Stutts, agree with that totally.