The A Championship?

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28/05/2006, 10:28 AM
Poor Student

The A Championship?

What do people think of this one? I can't tell if the non-league sides that will be in it will continue to compete at Intermediate Level as well or only in this league? In some respects it seems a glorified reserve league and if it is to be competed in exclusively by non-league teams then I don't see it as something to aspire to. However, if clubs will continue to compete in the MSL, LSL or whatever as well then how would they step up to the First Division in mid season if they won the playoff. Also, if they were relegated could they return to their respective Intermediate top flight?
28/05/2006, 10:32 AM
Dodge

But this A league runs with our summer season and not the seaon of intermediate. Can't see non league clubs going to huge expense and then fielding their reserve team in the leeague. Strange one.

One of the better moves by the el was to abolish the reserve league and introduce the U21 league in its place.
28/05/2006, 10:35 AM
Poor Student

Good point, but wouldn't that mean Intermediate clubs running a team all year round? Also, the new era will impose upon Premiership clubs the necessity to have a reserve team to enter the A Championship whereas it will only be optional for 1st Division sides. I don't see why they'd encourage teams to have such big squads. But then again I think the new U-20 league won't run alongside it anyway so maybe it'll just be effectively U-20 teams.
28/05/2006, 10:39 AM
Dodge

Yeah but it gives even less emphasis on youth development IMO and that s the one thing they should be emphasing most
28/05/2006, 10:43 AM
Poor Student

Well, there'll still be an underage league, reduced to U-20s. I guess that puts an ever so slightly more emphasis on putting together a young side. They'll still compete for the Doc O'Neill trophy.
28/05/2006, 10:48 AM
Dodge

Yeah but now there's an extra team between them and the first team. A team won't have to have 40/50% of their squad U21, they can just pack the reserves with journeymen pros, and during the winter months play loads of kids. There's not much incentive for them to bring those lads through. The poorer clubs will obviously still have to do it so it'll just create another divide in the league
28/05/2006, 10:51 AM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

The poorer clubs will obviously still have to do it so it'll just create another divide in the league

That's what I am thinking, it's a bizarre one. Shels could probably put players with international caps in a reserve team but if UCD were required to have a reserve team it would just be full of U-20s. I don't see the point in insisting that clubs have a reserve team, it's only added expenditure. This A Championship seems a bizarre concoction.
28/05/2006, 11:09 AM
Student Mullet

What would happen if an unfavoured club wins the reserve league? Could we have trinity college or Garda in the First Division?
28/05/2006, 11:18 AM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student Mullet

What would happen if an unfavoured club wins the reserve league? Could we have trinity college or Garda in the First Division?

Well first of all, the example of the A Championship given in the document is imaginary based on the non-league teams currently in the Doc O'Neill U-21 League. There's no guarantee clubs like those would be in the A Championship. Personally I'd be amused to see Trinity come up, it would give us a real rival.;) Anyway, the way the thing will work is that the highest non-league team in each conference (there could be 2-4 depending on the level of interest) will compete in a playoff to decide the A Championship winner. The non-league side must be no lower than 4th in their conference though. Then this winner can challenge the last team in the 1st Division to a playoff. It's still a long path to go to get into the league. I'm also thinking if a team gets relegated into this glorified reserve league, it could be the biggest graveyard of all. Had it existed a couple of seasons back then Limerick would surely have fallen into it. Given the rather long path it takes to get out of it and its unappealing unglamourous nature, it could be severely damaging to get relegated into it.
28/05/2006, 1:36 PM
higgins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poor Student

That's what I am thinking, it's a bizarre one. Shels could probably put players with international caps in a reserve team but if UCD were required to have a reserve team it would just be full of U-20s. I don't see the point in insisting that clubs have a reserve team, it's only added expenditure. This A Championship seems a bizarre concoction.

Is the intention of the FAI to have a Premiership of 10 teams capable of fielding a team in the A League?

Just because UCD would struggle to field a team means nothing!
Maybe its further indication that UCD should not be considered for one of the Premiership places.

With bigger crowds and salary caps in place there shoudl be no reason why a Premiership club cant field a decent A team. If UCD cant get the crowds its their own problem.
28/05/2006, 1:45 PM
DmanDmythDledge

Quote:

Originally Posted by higgins

If UCD cant get the crowds its their own problem.

Do you think that teams like Portsmouth or Watford should be kicked out of the English Premiership?
28/05/2006, 1:50 PM
higgins

What are you getting at...
Does the EPL require all the Premiership clubs to have a team in the A League?

If it does and Watford cant fly a squad over every weekend for the games then yes under the rules they should be kicked out.
28/05/2006, 1:52 PM
DmanDmythDledge

Well you brought crowds into the discussion...
28/05/2006, 2:10 PM
higgins

I brought crowds into the discussion as its a major source of income for clubs. If you are a club with a decent fanbase then why would you be incapable of fielding an A league team?

Your the one mixing up the present situation and the ideal situation the FAI are aiming for.

If we adapt the UCD attitude the league goes nowhere as you dont have the vision or the funds to do anything.... If you keep working off the weakest link in the premier we get nowhere.
Its about time criteria was put in place and Im glad there is some off field criteria too. You all harp on about the Club Licencing and how great it is ? Is that 100% on the field ???

Clubs can be kicked out of leagues without a Premier Licence and yet they could have won the Premier but thats OK! However when it comes now to rules which clubs have difficulty meetign they are all of a sudden unworkable.

Maybe UCD should plan their future that includes an A team so as they are not left behind rather then moan and complain on foot.ie
28/05/2006, 2:14 PM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by higgins

Is the intention of the FAI to have a Premiership of 10 teams capable of fielding a team in the A League?

Just because UCD would struggle to field a team means nothing!
Maybe its further indication that UCD should not be considered for one of the Premiership places.

With bigger crowds and salary caps in place there shoudl be no reason why a Premiership club cant field a decent A team. If UCD cant get the crowds its their own problem.

Very silly post. Salary caps will help enable bigger squads? I think it's not a great idea to impose upon clubs the need to have a reserve team as it isn't necessary. Financial prudence is what should be encouraged by the league, not added unecessary expenditure. Could you try not to drag UCD into this debate. I only offered us as an example of one club that would not be having a seperate reserve side. If the measure of a great club is one that can afford to have a superfluous squad of players then there is something wrong. Shelbourne themselves appear to be suffering for it.
28/05/2006, 2:47 PM
pete

I agree that U21 league is good as encourages clubs to have younger squads.

Can't see the point of the A Championship as even by their own admission the FAI haven't fully figured it out or even know how many non-league sides will join it.

I think little chance that A Championship will ever happen.
28/05/2006, 3:06 PM
higgins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poor Student

Very silly post. Salary caps will help enable bigger squads? I think it's not a great idea to impose upon clubs the need to have a reserve team as it isn't necessary. Financial prudence is what should be encouraged by the league, not added unecessary expenditure. Could you try not to drag UCD into this debate. I only offered us as an example of one club that would not be having a seperate reserve side. If the measure of a great club is one that can afford to have a superfluous squad of players then there is something wrong. Shelbourne themselves appear to be suffering for it.

Here you go again with your lack of ambition....

Why do you think teams having a reserve side and an U20 side is just extra expenditure?
It is very possible that by having a reserve side you have players who are match fit and when they play for the senior side they are not found wanting and it will help make for a better game?

There are some reasons out there to have a reserve side and its not all about losing money.

I didnt turn it into a UCD debate?
Shels and UCD were mentioned and I posted my thoughts.

The FAI are aiming for a league that will have sides capable of fielding A teams. Just because there are current clubs in the Premier who see this as an extra expense says more about their lack of ambition then it does the FAI's.

It may not be practical now for some clubs but why not aim for this??

It may never happen anyway as they have to set up the a team to look into it. Seems unworkable with the summer and winter leagues but let them have a look at it and lets see.

OR ELSE!!

We can all keep posting on here knocking every idea that might mean smaller clubs with no ambition are found out.
28/05/2006, 4:24 PM
Poor Student

Higgins, what are you talking about? This is not some long term vision, we're talking about 2 years. Right now Shelbourne are running themselves into financial difficulties by maintaining a large squad and getting little success from it. If anything in these two years you'll be scaling your squad back. A squad as large as that is only necessary if a club is competing in the Setanta and Europe. However only 4 clubs can ever do that at one time. Bohs have suffered for maintaining a big enough professional squad without success and you're headed for the same path. You're confusing realism and sensibility with lack of ambition. Ask Peter Ridsdale about following your ambitions and living the dream.
28/05/2006, 6:42 PM
lefty

Bloody great idea this A Championship lark, about time there was some way of relegating crap 1st division teams and putting good junior teams in their place. The reserve team will be in essence the current U21 team and the U20 team will be a chance for younger players again, a higher standard than playing DDSL anyway. Poor Student what are you on about saying we couldnt field a team. Weve already got the 1st team, U21s, 2 teams in the LSL and about 64 College Superleague teams, we have the biggest pool of players going and this A Championship setup suits us better than anyone else
28/05/2006, 6:44 PM
Student Mullet

Quote:

Originally Posted by higgins

Here you go again with your lack of ambition....

...

The FAI are aiming for a league that will have sides capable of fielding A teams. Just because there are current clubs in the Premier who see this as an extra expense says more about their lack of ambition then it does the FAI's.

It may not be practical now for some clubs but why not aim for this??

Higgins,
I think you're missing the point here. I don't see any club having difficulty fielding a reserve side, in the case of UCD and probably most clubs it would mean 'promoting' our top LSL team and adding in the overage players from our current U21 team.

The point is that fielding 3 squads instead of 2 is an increase in player costs at the same time as the salery cap reduced the money available for these costs. It's not a case of certain clubs seeing it as an extra expense, it actually is an extra expense.

Someone above made the point that seperating the reserve side from the U21 side is going to make little difference to UCD as our reserve side is almost entirely underage anyway. That was a simple observation, it doesn't show a lack of ambition, nor does it show that we would struggle to field a team.
28/05/2006, 6:48 PM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefty

Poor Student what are you on about saying we couldnt field a team. Weve already got the 1st team, U21s, 2 teams in the LSL and about 64 College Superleague teams, we have the biggest pool of players going and this A Championship setup suits us better than anyone else

Yeah, but how many of those are on the books of the AFC as paid players? I mean, fine, if that's the way we want to go about it then we could easily put together an A Championship squad, but why put that imposition on us? Also, what's the attraction for non-league clubs? Higgins pulled this away from the main questions I was asking, like will non-league clubs compete in their Intermediate league and this at the same time? Is this a legitimate 3rd flight or some sort of mishmash pseudo league? Why not just have a 3rd flight more like the English conference? What is the point on insisting on reserve teams at the same time as a wage cap?
28/05/2006, 7:54 PM
Student Mullet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poor Student

Yeah, but how many of those are on the books of the AFC as paid players? I mean, fine, if that's the way we want to go about it then we could easily put together an A Championship squad, but why put that imposition on us? Also, what's the attraction for non-league clubs? Higgins pulled this away from the main questions I was asking, like will non-league clubs compete in their Intermediate league and this at the same time? Is this a legitimate 3rd flight or some sort of mishmash pseudo league? Why not just have a 3rd flight more like the English conference? What is the point on insisting on reserve teams at the same time as a wage cap?

I presume it'll be much the same as the current reserve league; mostly league clubs with some local clubs and some institutions. I presume the local clubs also field teams in the senior leagues. I think it's a good idea to give clubs a formal means of entering the league but there are some questions to be answered. Are the 'A' champions obliged to challenge for a Div. 1 place or can they decline? If they decline, can the runners up claim the playoff place? What happens if a team nowhere near a UEFA license wins the 'A' league?
28/05/2006, 7:56 PM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student Mullet

Are the 'A' champions obliged to challenge for a Div. 1 place or can they decline?

I'd assume so.

Quote:

If they decline, can the runners up claim the playoff place?

Not sure.

Quote:

What happens if a team nowhere near a UEFA license wins the 'A' league?

They won't get in.
28/05/2006, 10:30 PM
citybone

big clubs like city shels drogs bohs and derry will find the reserve league good to get players over 20/21 match experience aswell as having more players in the summer transfer match fit to sign i dont think it should not be compulsery but it should be encouraged i like the idea of more university teams and it will make the fai cup much more competitive in terms of a upset its also good to have it regionalised
29/05/2006, 8:27 AM
lefty

You wont need an A Licence to play in the 1st Division only the Premier League. This league will hopefully be a 3rd tier, take a look at the Spanish leagues 2nd and 3rd tiers you will see that there are lots of B teams plying their trade in them and this will be a similar situation i reckon. Most teams Wayside etc have two teams anyway if not more. At least two, one saturday (B) and one Sunday (A) leinster senior league. It would be easy for them to put a team into this A Championship with the possibility of getting into the 1st Div and the money on offer. The likes of Mayo and Kerry League have a number of players in each respective county to choose from, the Gardai have an U/21 team, 2 leinster senior league sides and 2 divisions of players in the Garda Dublin Metropolitan League alone so again no shortage of players there. How about the untapped counties aswel im sure the Ofally Westmeath Laois league will be looking at this with a bit of interest, Wexford aswel, im sure there will be plenty of interest in it to be honest, it says �5000 to enter this may be a bit steep but remember these teams have means of making money, and to give a comparison its �800 for students to put a team in the Superleague and refs fees on top of that. The only thing i think needs to be sorted out are a) do Championship teams need a B licence for the 1st div and will they be given finance/incentives to get this and b) what will the story with Championship teams getting into the FAI and League Cup be?
31/05/2006, 10:28 AM
Breifne

Quote:

Originally Posted by higgins

Is the intention of the FAI to have a Premiership of 10 teams capable of fielding a team in the A League?

Just because UCD would struggle to field a team means nothing!
Maybe its further indication that UCD should not be considered for one of the Premiership places.

I think to be fair, having been involved with a team in UCD this year, that they would probably be one of the teams most likely to do well in the 'A' Championship. A good bunch of young players in the 21's league and in both LSL Sides, where they have only lost a handful of games in two divisions for the last three years.

I would expect that most clubs financial structures won't be affected too much by the inclusion of a reserve squad. Players in the reserve squad will be amateur for the most point, the same with the Under 21's. The only costs are travel and coaching really.
31/05/2006, 11:11 AM
monutdfc

Will dual registration of players* as proposed by Genesis apply to the A League, just the U-20 league or neither?
(*ie where players retain their registration with their junior club while playing in this league.)
The Genesis report looked to GAA as a model for achieving local identity with and support for eL clubs. For non-City clubs this is one key way of doing so: talented local junior players can have a shot at league football without the risk of being a rarely-played squad member for a year with no football.
31/05/2006, 1:07 PM
Schumi

I think that's the case for the Under-21 League at the moment, for the Kerry & Mayo teams anyway so I'd imagine the Under-20 league at least would continue that.
03/06/2006, 4:19 PM
Sniffer

Hmmm, a salary cap.In principle this is an excellent strategy IMO, BUT such a thing needs to apply across the footballing universe. No I don't expect Delaney & Co. to manage this. Isn't it true that professional footballers make their living from playing football, if so won't they want to go where the money is? The [borrowed] money that has lured top young players back to our league rather than hang around in the english game has made a significant impact. If there's a cap mightn't these players be more inclined to stay on in England for the extra shekels, thus lowering the quality of player that we can attract to our league?

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