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Student Protests
New employment law explained
Are french people just lazy or do they just like to protest about everything?
This is the same country that brought in the 35 hour working week to try to bring down unemployment. Just looking at that law & reality is that employees in Ireland could be released at 1 months notice at any time if just say that work no longer available. At 10% unemployment the french shouldn't be so choosy.
its the same as people working for a dollar a day for nike in them crap countries where there is nuthin else to do moaning about conditions. people should be grateful to have a job...damn foreigners..:rolleyes:
France is almost as bad as Germany but at least Germans have history in engineering & other industries. Jobs for life hiding incompetent employees are over. France needs to join the 21st century & see the competition out there. If it wasn't for wine & tourism France would have collapsed long ago.
would you work somewhere where you could be fired without explanation?
Stanard practice is that when people in their 6 months probation they can be released with 1 months notice/pay. In my experience this very rarely used unless person lied during interview & clearly incompetent. Companies don't fire people just cos they like it as its hassle trying to hire & train new people.Quote:
Originally Posted by klein4
In France the government was proposing this for 2 year period but now cut to 1 year. Employees will still entitled to notice period. I don't see the big deal. Is it better to be on the dole?
Reality is that if my boss didn't want to employ me anymore i wouldn't want to work for him.
As far as I can see the only thing wrong with France is that their citizens are unwilling to be crapped on from a height by their governments, good for them, I only hope that Irish people would grow the same backbone and stand up for their rights in the same way
So 10% unemployment caused by government-enforced structural barriers to employment isn't being crapped on from a great height......? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
This is the 21st century Jebus. The world doesn't owe anyone a favour any more.....
French society is clearly out of touch, not only in economic terms but also on many other issues.They still live in the nostalgia of 1968 while the rest of Europe adapted to the new demands of a globalized economy that has, I reckon, it's own defaults. Nevertheless, we have to stick to reality.
The "CPE" is not something new and already exists in many countries.
Training periods ranging from 6 months up to 2 or 3 years are common place in countries such as Denmark or Luxembourg. Have you ever heard them complain ?
Some companies spend a lot of money and time in training their staff.
That period alone can take up to several months. Unless you behave badly you won't get fired after that period.
The french like to complain about everything... When it's not about their pension it is the 35 hour week, salaries or the farmers who complain about the bad weather.
Fair play to the french people for not taking the crap from their leaders. If only the same was the case here, as we rapidly head to a US/UK situation where people can't get permenant, full time jobs. Instead they have to make do with several part time jobs, reduced job security, no garanteed hours and wages etc etc.
Rather higher unemployment than the attitude to labour of the "more successful" economies of the West. So fair play for the French for protecting the conditions they fought for so long to get, for which one man was trying to remove on a whim.
And again, more's the pity that the general population can't see the race to the bottom happening here and just have an "I'm all right Jack" attitude. You probably are, but for how long?
Jesus Christ do I have to constantly come on here explaining the obvious?? I said the French are unwilling to accept being crapped on from a great height by their governments, lets call this point (a), since this thread is basically about the French rioting in response to said crapping lets go ahead and call that point (b). So a + b = my point that they don't allow their governments to screw them over, so wheres the confusion? I've got hand puppets if that would be easierQuote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I love France
But with your talk of crapping from above you give the impression that France is still being ruled by the aristocracy. They had riots a few months ago by young unemployed men and they're trying to do something about the problem. You can agree or disagree with their policies but you're assigning false motives when you accuse them of crapping from above.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Am I assigning false motives, or are you assigning them yourself? Theres something for you to nit pick aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
More strikes by the french today :rolleyes: The french do love their holidays...
Ya because if there is one thing history has taught us it's the beauty of that most wonderful work avoidance tactic, the strike. It is of course widely known that workers have marvellous times while out on strike and often use this handy gap in their employment to spend a bit of time with the kids, maybe see some of the world, or to just simply unwind in the mansion which their bountiful boss has provided for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Why, we only have to think back to the miners strike in England. Oh what a gas it was... :rolleyes:
what a load of b0ll0cks. yea 'the french' as in every single last one of them. f*ck "the french". how small-minded are we irish (insert vomiting irony smiley here)
Off topic Muslim posts have been moved elsewhere.
I was trying to stir some debate here but seems few people capable of informing themselves...
I do feel France as a nation seems to be stuck in a timewarp unable to change with the rest of the world. Germany was like that for years but seems to be awakening to reality now.
To be fair pete, starting the thread off asking if the French are lazy or just like protesting about everything isn't a very clever way of starting a debate. The honest reason is that the French have become mired in a union culture, and have taken it too far. If you'd put it in more balanced terms like that, and asked if there was a way out - there is, because other countries have lifted themselves out of the problem - you mightn't have gotten such idiotic responses. The thread was biased when you started it - and just a tad bigoted imho - what did you expect?
(And no, I'm not saying that unions are bad. Unions are good, in moderation. Just like everything. Why people have to take such black and white views on everything is beyond me. People have died from falling off ladders; should we ban ladders?)
adam
I accept the lazy comment wasn't the smartest but ask 100 people on the street about french protests & i think vast majority will say they'd protest about anything. I think because of this its difficult to take all their protests seriously...
Doesn't matter pete. Start a debate that way, that's the response you'll get. We're aiming for a higher standard than that in here. :)
(Or rather, I'm aiming for a higher standard, and if I don't get it, I'm going to shut it down.)
That's true to a certain extent. France has a revolutionary and rebellious culture. 1789, 1792, 1830, 1848, 1871, 1968 and maybe 2005? Since 1789 the French have a propensity so rush to some sort of rebellion when they feel they need change.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
so pete, you expect the french workers and soon to be workers to just accept a major assault on their working conditions? shrug their shoulders and work more for less with no job security?
i liked the line from a protestor 'why should i be explolited by my boss to be a part of villepan's economic experiment'?
and for the record, French union participation is about 5%, its 20% in Ireland.
how many times on this site has the spinelessness of irelands joe public when it comes to being ripped off. the french stand up for themselves and get abuse?:confused:
The unions are very powerful in France. I work for a company that has manufacturing plants in almost every European country and France is where we have the biggest problems. We cannot restruct our operations there like we have done so in other countries because we get so much push back from the unions and it's getting to the point where we might just pull out instead.
There's a lot of views on here defending the brave French employers for standing up to the evil government and employers who want to ruin their lives through subjugation and work insecurity. Someone even drew parallel to Thatcher and the miners strike in mid 1980's England.
Well consider this. The miners strike in England was in 1984. In 1982 the 6 largest industrialized nations in the World all reached historical unemployment peaks. Britain's trate went up to 13%, Frances' to almost 9%. Both were struggling economically. What's interesting is how both countries chose to respond to their crises. Although she did so in completely the wrong way, the bottom line is that Thatcher did the right thing for Britain at that time. In otherwords - she broke the stranglehold the Unions had upon employment in the country (winter of discontent anyone...?), and enabled a shift in the balance of labour involvement from out-dated manufacturing into newer industries. I have never been a fan of Thatcher, but increasingly with time I believe that history will judge her kinder than most of us currently would like to believe.
Meanwhile, in parallel, whilst Britain went through years of pain to address the structural and legislative factors that had CAUSED it to have 13 unemployment, the French did nothing similar. In actual fact, they went into reverse gear and begun re-nationalising large scale industries such as steel, nuclear energy etc.
Fast forward 20years, and guess what. France's unemployment rate has remained stubbornly high throughout - and is currently over 10%. Meanwhile, Britain's economy is flying with an unemployment rate of c. 4.8% (versus economic definition of 'full-employment' as 4% out of work).
So my point is this - people are shat on 1,000 times worse if their government sits idly by and does nothing to create an economy in which unemployment will drop to and remain at low levels. Some people here are so tied-up in misty-eyed left-wing ideology that they refuse to see how any change in Labour conditions could ever bring good to a greater numebr of people, and over a longer period of time. Labour market flexibility is NOT a bad thing when there are plenty of jobs around. What is a bad thing is finding yourself unemployed in modern day France - because due to its rigid Labour market, once you lose a job yer fecked. Hence why people in their 40's and 50's are absolutely terrified that they might be made unemployed, as it would mean the end of their working life. Hence why students are outraged that they've spent years studying for a degree that gets them nothing but a dole cheque in-return.
France has buried its head in the sand for too long. It needs to face some short term pain if it is to have any chance at a longer term gain for ALL its people. A sensible place to start would be their fat greedy farmers who get paid a fortune in EU money to keep them in an incredibly unrpoductive, fringe industry that Western Europe has almost totally moved on from. That should be the French economy's miners strike - though I suspect they don't have a Thatcher in-place to have either the foresight or the balls to do it.
What is wrong with France is as follows:-
IT'S A FORMER EMPIRE ! :D
I agree with all Steves post. As i said its really like just extending the probationary period from 6 months to 12 months as workers still entitled to 1 months notice like Ireland.
Many european countries make it very difficult to employ a new worker as if the company experiences a downturn then very difficult to release the worker. In many countries you need a qulaification before you even start up a corner shop which is just stupid. In Germany for the first year of unemployment you receive 40% of your previous gross salry in unemployment benefit - when you consider how high their tax is that means almost no drop in income so little incentive to find work. My previous employer closed down a couple of years ago & becausew we got good redundency package i had no incentive to find work until i got bored..
By any definition France has high unemployment rate for country of such size & influence. They will have to change to improve things as won't happen by just hoping jobs will appear.
That's what I like about the French - when they want change, they set about getting it and none of yer half-measures. OK, so some stuff gets burned along the way and a few aristocrats have their heads lopped off, but let's face it, the French are pretty good at revolution, and they know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
We, on the other hand, ring Marion Finucane and moan until we're bored enough to go down the pub.
or Joe Duffy:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub
Damn ! If only we thought more like the French !Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub
This 4.3% unemployment rate is a killer - can't a guy just sit on his arse any more and get fat off the offerings of the State ? If only we couild have a real unemployment rate like the French - none of this successful Celtic Tiger nonsense.... :rolleyes: :D
Maybe we should bring Love Ulster back to town again...
Have to say thats a pretty harsh response to NightDub commenting that he liked the French's flair for protesting, I don't think he once said he'd like all aspects of Irish life (unemployment levels or beyond) to be the same as FranceQuote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Ironically the french usually protest against change - change to employment laws, change to farm subsidies...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub
But the French are protesting against the wrong thign !Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
If you're worried about job security etc, then what's better - 10% unemployment, and a geneuine fear that losing your job as a mature adult will see you remain unemployed ? Or changes to the employment structure that over time will almost definitely bring that unemployment level down ?
I'm not necessarily blaming the French themselves here - people rarely see, let alone accept, the bigger picture. But if its change they want then they should be protesting in-favour of shaking up their out-dated economic model so that they can all actually have a genuine chance of employment some time soon.
Again I didn't say that that wasn't true, the only things I've pointed out/argued against in this thread is that you gave a harsh reply to NightDub, and I'd also now like to point out that you did the same to me, and argued against him about a point he didn't even make.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
The only other problem I've had with this thread is Pete's initial statement about the French being lazy, or just argumentative, for simple standing up for what they see as their rights. Fair enough if you agree with the proposed employment bill, but argue the merits of said bill, instead of slating a whole nation simply because you disagree with some of their citizen's point of view
But Nightdub's post said : "That's what I like about the French - when they want change, they set about getting it and none of yer half-measures".Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
The reality is the exact opposite. As Pete pointed out, they're very good at protesting AGAINST change. When was the last time the French came out and made a big stink about forcing their government INTO a positive change ?
Hence why I picked Nighdub up on his point. Hence why France as a country is slowly falling apart. The people in power are unwilling or unable to introduce the changes required, whilst the population at large will violently oppose any such change. What's the odds that they've still got 10%+ unemployment in yet another 20yrs, but with even greater social and psychological problems than today....?
Steve, I think you missed the whole tongue-in-cheek-ness of my post (though on a more serious note, the fact that the French have had so many revolutions shows they're actually pretty good at achieving radical change).
More importantly, you're going down the road of blaming France's rate of unemployment on the French unemployed. If only those layabouts would get on their bicyclettes and accept McJobs with reduced or no job security, everything would be hunky-dory? I bet minimum wage legislation must get rightly up your nose as well.
The 10% or whatever it is of the French workforce who are unemployed are SYMPTOMS of a fúcked economy - they're not the CAUSE of it.
This whole thing about how if unions/workers didn't stand in the way of structural changes in the economy then they would be better off in the long term strikes me as a bit dubious. It assumes that the people whose jobs get downsized (or whatever) will be the same ones who reap the benefits of the "new economy." But how many ex-miners find jobs as management execs, or web designers, or whatever?
Take as an example the case of aircraft repair engineers here in the U.S. They're being laid off due to restructuring (it turns out to be cheaper to have the planes repaired outside of the U.S.). Here are guys in their 40's and over, whose craft no longer exists in the country, and who have no other skills. Shouldn't they stand in the way of "progress" and fight to save their jobs? Weren't the miners right to try to do the same?
In essence, the idea seems to be that some folk have to give up their livelihoods (without a fight) so that some completely different group of people get to have a better life 10, 20 years down the road. Why should anyone buy that?
and the next move is a civil war in 2007 after the election of Le pen for president ? :o
If you accept that then you must accept that the french economy needs to change. The greatest contribution the french nation could come up with is to reduce th number of hours people allowed to work so have a 35 hour working week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub
If Ireland adopted the french social model we'd be back at 20%+ unemployment.
If Le Pen ever gets in I'll grab a rifle myself and join themQuote:
Originally Posted by laurent
nonsense. the french are overwhelmingly against this neo-liberal experiment. they chose stability over flexibility, a choice we never got.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
there is no 'right' economic model that fits all and the french are happy with 15% unemployment, so whats your problem?