Government Position on US Illegals

Anyone else think that this Governments position and support for the Irish Illegals in the US is hypocritical in the extreme? They pass a racist piece of legislation to limit immigration into this country and to stop people born on the island being Irish, yet they're quite happy to put pressure on the USA to let Irish people stay.

The same week their trying to deport a 19 year old lad because of a traffic offence, they're swanning about Washington demanding what they'd deny to people born here. :mad:

yeah its hypocritical alrite. but I wouldnt begrudge anyone who had to leave this country and set up somewhere else a life....so fair play to them

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Originally Posted by klein4

yeah its hypocritical alrite. but I wouldnt begrudge anyone who had to leave this country and set up somewhere else a life....so fair play to them

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Don't get me wrong, I think there is a case to made for the US illegals, but the only difference between them and immigrants into this country wanting a better life is the colour of their skin.

In most cases there isn't even that Macy.

Anyone see the US proposals for "guest workers" to help legitimize illegals. They reckon illegals account for 5% of total workforce and in construction and food preparation as high as 25-30%. Bush spoke of the neeed for "low skilled" workers filling jobs American don't want to do. Which of course is true but their half arsed "we'll allow you in but can throw you out at any stage" proposal is just ludicrous and offers no incentive to those currently living nd working illegally in the US

Some light reading on the Irish government's position on Irish emigrants

The legislation in Ireland was passed by a Referendum. I think it is more accurate to say irish people are hypocrites to vote yes for a Referendum & then when see hard case story on the news campaign to have the law bended...?

In the US seems to be a differnce between white & coloured illegals...

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Originally Posted by pete

The legislation in Ireland was passed by a Referendum. I think it is more accurate to say irish people are hypocrites to vote yes for a Referendum & then when see hard case story on the news campaign to have the law bended...

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There was no campaign for the referendum from the Irish people, it was McDowell's idea from the start to pander to the "taking our jobs, taking our women" brigade. However, I do agree there is a lot of hypocracy over racism in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by pete

In the US seems to be a differnce between white & coloured illegals...

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Any evidence to support that?

sure if people had a voted no then they just would have had another one til they voted yes! now thats democracy!

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Originally Posted by klein4

sure if people had a voted no then they just would have had another one til they voted yes! now thats democracy!

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AKA Nice Referendum.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Anyone else think that this Governments position and support for the Irish Illegals in the US is hypocritical in the extreme? They pass a racist piece of legislation to limit immigration into this country and to stop people born on the island being Irish, yet they're quite happy to put pressure on the USA to let Irish people stay.

The same week their trying to deport a 19 year old lad because of a traffic offence, they're swanning about Washington demanding what they'd deny to people born here. :mad:

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or it could be.. the Irish illegals in the US baled on this country when things were tough here, so screw them we don't want them back :D

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Originally Posted by Macy

McDowell's idea from the start to pander to the "taking our jobs, taking our women" brigade.

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Speaking personally they are welcome to our women :D as long as Irish guys get to try out their women no problem ....
Like the song from way back when said "What we need is a great big melting pot...."

I think there are still many irish people moving to the US illegally these days just for change of scenery so they not exactly economic immigrants. I think still fairly hard to get decent job as illegal so i would assume most get bored after a few years of building or waitressing...?

US should surely have naturalisation program for people there say 10 years.

But at what point is enough is enough??

The US has taken a relaxed view of illegal immigrants for too long. 11 million illegals in the US? Thats crazy.

Also, I think it's ironic that the people in recent protests have a lot of flags. Not too many US flags in sight though:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...r441542540.jpg
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...3612453545.jpg
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor.../la10803272045

What does that say?

I dont understand?
What do you mean when you say "what does that say?"
They are hardly going to denounce their heritage just cause they want to live in the states.
same as the people moving here.

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Originally Posted by pete

The legislation in Ireland was passed by a Referendum. I think it is more accurate to say irish people are hypocrites to vote yes for a Referendum & then when see hard case story on the news campaign to have the law bended...?

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I voted no on that referendum, because it didn't so what people claimed it did. It gave the government the power do define nationality, and I don't think they have any right deciding that. It's a constitutional matter if ever I saw one. Mostly though, people voted on that without even reading the damn thing.

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Originally Posted by klein4

I dont understand?
What do you mean when you say "what does that say?"
They are hardly going to denounce their heritage just cause they want to live in the states.
same as the people moving here.

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But if they are coming to the US, and want to stay instead of their own country, should they not embrace the US culture as well? It's not denouncing their heritage, it's about them choosing to live in the US. They are not going to win much sympathy if they are waving Mexican/Chinese/Irish flags instead of the US flag.

But surely if its a march for immigrants rights the flags are there to show that its not just a Mexican issue or an Irish issue or an issue confined to any one country. The flags show it affects all immigrants.

Its not like they were burning US flag or doing anything "anti-American"

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Originally Posted by Metrostars

What does that say?

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No pictures of people with Irish flags as well says racism to me.

EDIT - only spotted you mention Irish Flags in the follow up post, so I take that back.

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Originally Posted by Metrostars

But if they are coming to the US, and want to stay instead of their own country, should they not embrace the US culture as well? It's not denouncing their heritage, it's about them choosing to live in the US. They are not going to win much sympathy if they are waving Mexican/Chinese/Irish flags instead of the US flag.

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Have to say I disagree with ya there. I might want to live in australia(for example) cause of the weather and the lifestyle but it wouldnt mean I would want to ever be an australian. cause Im Irish. it probably sums up whats wrong with america at the mo if they think being proud of where you are from is anti american if that place is not america.

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Originally Posted by John83

I voted no on that referendum, because it didn't so what people claimed it did. It gave the government the power do define nationality, and I don't think they have any right deciding that. It's a constitutional matter if ever I saw one. Mostly though, people voted on that without even reading the damn thing.

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The referendum inserted a clause in the constitution. Ignorance of not reading the referendum is no excuse. Hard cases don't make good laws.

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Originally Posted by pete

Hard cases don't make good laws.

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But then niether does pandering to the underlying racism of a country.

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Originally Posted by klein4

Have to say I disagree with ya there. I might want to live in australia(for example) cause of the weather and the lifestyle but it wouldnt mean I would want to ever be an australian. cause Im Irish. it probably sums up whats wrong with america at the mo if they think being proud of where you are from is anti american if that place is not america.

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Very assumptious of you regarding Americans. The typical american whether their ancestors came from Ireland, Italy, Africa, Asian or are Jewish etc are very proud of their background.

I am an immigrant from Ireland and was proud to become a US citizen a few years ago. Am I any less Irish now? Nope. My problem with some of these protestors is that they give a bad impression when they are waving their Mexican, Guatamalan or wherever flag. It is not about where they are from is the issue. They want more rights in the US. Then appreciate the country and fly the US flag.

I wasnt making assumptions about americans.
But I dont agree with you that they should be waving American Flags.
If it was in Ireland and a load of Nigerians/Polish/British immigrants started walking down o connell street waving Irish flags we would all be thinking "chancy *******s!"

Lads both of you are makiing assumptions that you speak for the majority. Stick to I think rather than "we'd think"

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an immigrant from Ireland and was proud to become a US citizen a few years ago. Am I any less Irish now? Nope.

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I think you are

I dont have an arse what you are on about.:confused: what i meant was I dont go in for this whole "americans are stupid and to blame for everything" lark. so I wasnt makin asumptions. I was referring to the "with us or against us" attitude prevalent in the states. which metrostars comments bout the flags kinda illustraes...for me!

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Originally Posted by klein4

I dont have an arse what you are on about.:confused: what i meant was I dont go in for this whole "americans are stupid and to blame for everything" lark. so I wasnt makin asumptions. I was referring to the "with us or against us" attitude prevalent in the states. which metrostars comments bout the flags kinda illustraes...for me!

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And you are missing my point. My point is that the illegals would get more sympathy if they fly the US flag instead. Being from Mexico, Ireland, China etc is not the point, it doesnt really matter where they are from, they are trying to get more rights in the US. It's like when I watch say Man Utd versus Chelsea on my TV and I see all these Ireland flags. Why? I just don't get it. Bring a United or Chelsea flag instead.

As for the "with us or agin us" attitude, this country(USA) is divided down the middle. TBH I dont spend much time in the "red" states but where I live, that is not the prevalent attitude.

Metrostars your "flag" sentiments are leaning to the right.

Lou Dobbs was whinging about the carrying and waving of Mexican Flags. When asked "What about St Patricks Day when everyones waving the Irish Flag?" he replied ""I don't think there should be a St Patrick's Day...I don't care who you are. I think we should be celebrating what's common in this country." What a d!ck :rolleyes:

My opinion is, the immigrants aren't coming here to be American, they're reasons are purely economic...so there's no need to wave the American Flag. Do you honestly think they'd get more sympathy waving the stars and bars? Thats b@lls - unfortunately most people in this country would be "Look at those foreigners waving OUR flag!!".... and thats putting it in a polite way.

Every side of this issue use it for their own devices. All these people claiming the illegals are costing the country billions but in the same breath saying "Sergio, don't forget to pull the weeds out...por favor". :mad:

In fairness to Metrostars, he's only making a point about PR. And it's a point I've come across in a few places this past week. E.g., in an op-ed in the New York Times last week (Sunday, I think) there was a piece from someone involved in the immigrant rights movement saying exactly the same thing. The author also seemed to think that the prevalence of non-US flags had hurt the movement the last time this was an issue (California in the 90's when there was a referendum on immigration policy). Apparently, after a big march back then, U.S. born Californians did react poorly to all those foreign flags (and lack of U.S. flags), as reflected in the change in the opinion polls before and after the demonstration.

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Originally Posted by Metrostars

Very assumptious of you regarding Americans. The typical american whether their ancestors came from Ireland, Italy, Africa, Asian or are Jewish etc are very proud of their background.

I am an immigrant from Ireland and was proud to become a US citizen a few years ago. Am I any less Irish now? Nope.

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Well legally you are no longer an Irish citizen. You renounced Irish citizenship when you became an American citizen under Irish Law and could technically be deported to the USA if you infringed Irish laws on a visit home.

An Irish citizen on the other can never be deported from this country!

Anyone who chooses to be an illegal in the USA is an idiot!
Why be illegal in the USA when you can be perfectly legal in anyone of 25 member states of the EU?
I personally think it is because punters are too lazy to learn a language. You only have to see how teachproof many Irish students are when it comes to their own language to see what I mean !

Teachproof. What a great word.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Well legally you are no longer an Irish citizen. You renounced Irish citizenship when you became an American citizen under Irish Law and could technically be deported to the USA if you infringed Irish laws on a visit home.

An Irish citizen on the other can never be deported from this country!

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Irish law permits dual citizenship and does not require applicants to renounce any other citizenship held at the time of application.

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http://www.irelandemb.org/fbr.html

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Anyone who chooses to be an illegal in the USA is an idiot!
Why be illegal in the USA when you can be perfectly legal in anyone of 25 member states of the EU?
I personally think it is because punters are too lazy to learn a language. You only have to see how teachproof many Irish students are when it comes to their own language to see what I mean !

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Well the 50,000 Irish there would have something to say on being called an "idiot":eek:

They choose to stay there because of the life they have made for themselves. They choose to stay there because it can be a great life if you work hard. I worked for guys there with no papers who have their own successful businesses. Maybe they choose to stay to get away from the negativity of the above comments.

KOH

Surely the main aim when going to another country is to respect that country and their traditions but not to the detriment of your own beliefs and pride in who you are. It is surely about incorporation of your old beliefs and traditions and new ones that you pick up. I can however see the problem that has arisen in the US, 11 million does seem a very large number. I remember reading that the current number of illegal immigrants in the UK is 500,000 quite a large number as well. Not sure what the figure is for the ROI.

I noticed with the most recent demonstrations here in the US, that the Stars and Stripes was more prevalent. What I found amusing was that most of the speakers spoke in Spanish! How can they expect to garner sympathy from the average American when they won't converse in a public arena by speaking English. My point is that if you are going live in a foreign Country, or attempt to live in a foreign Country, at least try to communicate in the native tongue. Easy for me to say as an immigrant who speaks English, but if I had decided to move to say,Germany, I'm going to learn that language. Is that too much to ask?

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Surely the main aim when going to another country is to respect that country and their traditions but not to the detriment of your own beliefs and pride in who you are. It is surely about incorporation of your old beliefs and traditions and new ones that you pick up.

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Well said Dassa.

This idea of immigration has always puzzled me and one question in particular. When someone moves to a country and has children. Should that person go out of their way to bring up their child in the main traditions of the country that they have moved to for the future non alienation of that child in years to come or should the parents bring them up in the major traditions of where they have come from even though this could have a negative effect for the child? very tough to know what is the right approach.

I don't have kids, but what would be wrong by doing both? Assuming that it would not have a negative effect on the child of course. If I did have kids and they were born over here, I would try and give them the best of both worlds. Simplistic answer I know, but not having any children, I couldn't say for sure what the right approach would be. Interesting question for someone that is raising a child in another Country or for that matter, someone who has already been raised by immigrant parents.

I have 3 kids and they are American kids. Whose father is from Ireland. IMO, the only real way to raise children as "irish" is to actually move to Ireland, to live with all irish people, go to Irish schools etc. I meet people here whose are second or third generation Irish-descent but some of the things they experienced in childhood, IMO, appears to be too forced on them. It still gets to me (after 14 years living here) when people come up to me and tell me they're "Irish", to which I usually reply, "Oh really, what part of Ireland are you from?" With my kids we all celebrate the Irish heritage to an extent. I met another parent at my kids' school recently who couldnt understand why we did not have our girls taking Irish dancing lessons. They dont because they prefer to do gymnastics instead. They dont "have" to do it just because it's the irish thing to do here. We go back to Ireland every 2 years (actually we're leaving on Friday again!) and they know it is part of their lives but I'm not pretending that they are anything other than Americans.

Of course, thats just my opinion, there is not right way or wrong way.

As for the language issue, for some this is a educational issue, for others, laziness. I work in the IT field with a lot of people from all over the world and we all speak english. Because we all have to. Like it or not, most illegals are less educated or had not the resources to learn english prior to moving here. And when they do move here, a lot only ever have to deal with people in their community and then dont bother to learn the language. There are some people who have live here 20 or 30 years and still have not picked up the language.