Peak Oil & Renewable Energy

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

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Civilization as we know it is coming to an end soon. This is not the wacky proclamation of a doomsday cult, apocalypse bible prophecy sect, or conspiracy theory society. Rather, it is the scientific conclusion of the best paid, most widely-respected geologists, physicists, and investment bankers in the world. These are rational, professional, conservative individuals who are absolutely terrified by a phenomenon known as global "Peak Oil."

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Informative...

I saw a good programme once(same guy who does all them renewable energy adds) but it basically said that ireland has one of the highest potentials to exploit wind energy in europe but with one of the lowest uses of it. I know in greece that all the houses have some form of solar power on the roofs of the gaffs. why cant we have wee wind mills on the gaffs here(or something like that but a bit more well thought out)? what has government to lose by bein more eco friendly?pure feckin laziness is all.

The oil is running out but it's not as big a deal as some people make out. There's plenty of alternative energy available it's just not used now because it's a tad more expensive. Transport is the only really vulnerable area and even there there are alternatives available.

Wind generators are different to most other generators and the grid needs to be updated before much more can be added. That's being done at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

The oil is running out but it's not as big a deal as some people make out.

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Not in the terms you state but to ignore global warming in this context is like ignoring the elephant in the corner of the room. I'm not sure how wind-powered generators (I'm sure that's what you meant) are different to fossil fuel-fired generators but governments can incentivise development of these renewable technologies through tax breaks on innovation and the like. What's Bertie's record in this area? Pish I expect. And on top of this inaction the national transport strategy sets out the case for more new motorways and thus more cars... :rolleyes:

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

I'm not sure how wind-powered generators (I'm sure that's what you meant) are different to fossil fuel-fired generators but governments can incentivise development of these renewable technologies through tax breaks on innovation and the like.

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I was hoping you wouldn't ask.
Most generators are 'synchronous generators' which spin at 50 cycles per second (or a multiple of that). Wind turbines power 'induction generators' which spin at a speed above 50 cycles. The difference in the two frequencies causes the power in the transmission lines to pulsate, which the lines were not designed for. That's why the ESB is spending a lot of money upgrading the transmission lines. That's the main problem with the induction machienes but there are others aswell. When a transmission line faults (like when it's struck by lightening) all the inducton machienes disconnect automatically from the grid to protect themselves and leave it to the synchronous machienes to sort out the problem. That's fine now when we're only loosing a small fraction of your power but it would create a problem if a lot of our energy came from wind.

I don't know what Bertie's record on this is like but Mary Harney's is very good. There are two research teams working on these problems here in UCD and it's a similar pattern in the other universities and the ESB.

Does anyone know what FF are trying to push through at the moment as regards wind farms, what ever it is will apparantly rule out the possiblity of the ESB to generate energy through wind farms, which to my knowledge will leave Ireland in a situation where we'll have to buy energy in a few years time.

I dont have the full story but from what i gather, they (FF) dont want the ESB investing in wind farms as the investment isn't very rewarding in the short term and not conducive to getting more votes but crippling us in the long term ??

Any ideas people ??

I know they were claiming we had too much wind energy, and said no more connections to the grid. This effectively forced airtricity to stop their roll out of new wind farms. This dispite rumours that the regular and seemingly random power cuts are actually because we're hitting the max at certain times.

Interestingly, wind power left off yesterdays list of the greener home energy subsidies yesterday too, when it is one of the most cost effective - particular where (eg UK) you can hook back to the grid and don't have to have battery storage. You sell to the grid when you're not using all the power produced by your wind turbine.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Interestingly, wind power left off yesterdays list of the greener home energy subsidies yesterday too, when it is one of the most cost effective - particular where (eg UK) you can hook back to the grid and don't have to have battery storage. You sell to the grid when you're not using all the power produced by your wind turbine.

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They do this in the States too, I was reading about a guy doing it with solar a while back and thought it was an absolutely great idea, really encourages people to make an effort.

EDIT: I don't think it was one of these, but there's a ton of articles about it in Wired.

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

The oil is running out but it's not as big a deal as some people make out. There's plenty of alternative energy available it's just not used now because it's a tad more expensive. Transport is the only really vulnerable area and even there there are alternatives available.

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There is one more vunerable industry than just cars?

Every manufacturing company in the world needs to keep there machines well oiled. If we ran out of oil, we would have to revert back to using water mills again! :eek:

Or vegetable oil.

isnt there some cheap crop that can be grown easily here and used in the electricity making process(!)??? wasnt there a hydrogen car that they were bringing in?

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Originally Posted by Macy

Or vegetable oil.

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Are we talking about Star reporters again now?

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Originally Posted by Macy

I know they were claiming we had too much wind energy, and said no more connections to the grid. This effectively forced airtricity to stop their roll out of new wind farms. This dispite rumours that the regular and seemingly random power cuts are actually because we're hitting the max at certain times.

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There's two seperate things there.

The power cuts are as a result of hitting the max, that's openly admitted by the ESB and not a rumour. The problem here is a political one. The government and the EU want to bring competition into the electricity market so won't let the ESB build any more powerplants even though they're needed. The backwards logic behind this is that competition is 'good' and will bring down prices. The problem is that when it came in noone wanted to build any more plants so prices had to come up to encourage them.

The reason there was a ban on new wind farms was a technical one. Connecting a wind farm isn't as easy as connecting other types of generators but I think that that ban has been lifted for most parts of the country now.

I think the link that started this thread describes how more we are dependent on oil for more than just fuel...

Solar panels are probably not expensive in themselves so are popular in sunny climates but afaik they don't use batteries to store the energy. In Ireland we would likely need to store the energy so battery prices don't make economical.

Irish people are more likely to complain about a wind farm than a fossil fuel burning power plant.

I don't know the economics of alternative energy sources but its clear the irish economy is hugely reliant on oil prices. Suppose we should stick close to the US so they can protect our oil sources in the Middle East?

Nuclear anyone?

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Originally Posted by pete

Nuclear anyone?

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We're already Nuclear - have been since we hooked up to the UK National Grid.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

They do this in the States too, I was reading about a guy doing it with solar a while back and thought it was an absolutely great idea, really encourages people to make an effort.

EDIT: I don't think it was one of these, but there's a ton of articles about it in Wired.

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Did you see Ethnic Man on Newsnight Tuesday night (repeated on BBC website tonight) - he had a propellor type wind thingy attached to his chimney and saved a fortune in electricity.It costs about £1,200 sterling.
I'm gonna do the same now since I'm getting a new roof put on the house in thye coming year.
I believe there are grants available for solar heating too??

That was SOOO my idea!!!!!
and student guy said it wasnt possible.:mad:
if you can get ANY energy from solar power in this cloud ridden depressing kip than I will personally come round and give you a grant! ;)

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Originally Posted by klein4

if you can get ANY energy from solar power in this cloud ridden depressing kip than I will personally come round and give you a grant! ;)

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Didn't you know that the sun always shines on 'hamish.:D Get your chequebook ready!;)

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Originally Posted by klein4

That was SOOO my idea!!!!!
and student guy said it wasnt possible.:mad:
if you can get ANY energy from solar power in this cloud ridden depressing kip than I will personally come round and give you a grant! ;)

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I think you can get solar energy even when it's cloudy.

Touche!
(altho think ya might be right sure arent all the parking meters solar powered!)

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Originally Posted by klein4

Touche!
(altho think ya might be right sure arent all the parking meters solar powered!)

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I think I'll stay with my mini-windmill idea though.:D - just in case.

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Originally Posted by klein4

Touche!
(altho think ya might be right sure arent all the parking meters solar powered!)

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Bit of a difference between energy required to run a parking meter & boil a tank of water for a shower. In countries such as Greece its a warm climate so don't need such hot water for a shower unlike the irish climate. The amount of daylight hours here is a lot less so need battery to store the energy so can have a hot shower in the morning.

There is however a lot of wind & hot air in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by pete

There is however a lot of wind & hot air in Ireland.

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That's me ok so.:D

Little bit of self-deprecating humour there.;)

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Originally Posted by A face

I dont have the full story but from what i gather, they (FF) dont want the ESB investing in wind farms as the investment isn't very rewarding in the short term and not conducive to getting more votes but crippling us in the long term ??

Any ideas people ??

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DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS MARINE
AND NATURAL RESOUCES

Wind Energy Information

Overview
In Ireland, electricity generation from renewable energy based technologies, including wind powered technologies, are not as yet competitive with electricity generated from the most efficient generating plant and in consequence market support is required. The additional costs are passed on to final electricity customers through a Public Service Obligation (PSO) levy. Therefore, Ireland has placed emphasis on competition in order to deliver renewables based electricity at lowest cost. This process ensures that the customer incurs the smallest price increase on their utility bills through the PSO levy.

Policy
Policy on renewables was reviewed in 1999 with the publication of the “Green Paper on Sustainable Energy”. The Green Paper included a decision to support the building of up to 500 Megawatts (MW) of renewable energy based electricity plant, primarily wind powered, to be connected to the electricity network by 2005. Following the receipt of state aids approval in late 2004, the 500MW target was revised upwards to 718MW to include support for offshore wind (50MW), Biomass CHP (28MW) and additional support for other onshore technologies. The bulk of this revised target will be implemented in the main through the offer of contracts under this Department’s Alternative Energy Requirement (AER) Programme and the liberalised green electricity market mechanism.

Wind Energy technology
Although pioneered in the 19th century, the technology to generate electricity from wind energy only began to receive serious attention in the past 30 years. The wind turbines developed over the past few decades are based on the deign of the old windmills which once dotted the country–side. The modern turbine is on average 45 – 65 metres in height and the wind is captured by the rotation of the wind turbine's rotor blades.

A single turbine usually has three blades and these can travel from 50 to 70 metres a second at the tip. In recent years there has been a dramatic improvement in the design, output and efficiency of wind turbines. At the same time the costs associated with these developments have fallen sharply. The advances in the technology have resulted in the reduction in the cost of electricity generation from this resource.

In the modern era Ireland’s first windfarm was located at Bellacorrick, Co Mayo and dates back to 1992. Since then the number has risen to 45 on-shore windfarms and 1 offshore wind plant in commercial operation, with a total installed capacity of 365 Megawatts. These projects produce enough electricity on average to power up to the equivalent of 230,000 households throughout Ireland.

Costs
The costs associated with the construction of a wind energy project are considerable and on average equate to €1.1 million per installed turbine (i.e. 850kw machine). Costs relate to:
Ø Planning permission (for the construction works and possibly the grid connection/overheads lines
Ø Civil/construction works
Ø Turbine(s)/generator/switchgear etc.
Ø Grid connection costs
Ø Land lease (if applicable) and other costs.

Technical Issues
The wind resource is random and cannot increase or decrease the electricity generated in immediate response to consumer demand. The current support target for wind-powered projects does not raise serious technical issues for system stability. However planning for future programmes at increased penetration levels of wind powered electricity generating plant does raise significant technical issues, which must be addressed in order to maintain system security for electricity consumers. The Commission for Energy Regulation (www.cer.ie) is currently examining issues of immediate relevance regarding the grid code for wind-powered generators.

Other sources of Information:

Ø The Renewable Energy Information Office (REIO), a service of Sustainable Energy Ireland, has further information on the technical and planning aspects of renewable energy projects. The contact number for REIO is (023) 42193; e-mail renewables@reio.ie;

Ø DG TREN, European Commission - the web site for the Transport and Energy Directorate of the European Commission. Has information on renewable energy policy at European Union level, details of EC Programmes, relevant Publications and status of renewable energy technologies across member states

Ø The Irish Wind Energy Association (IWEA), c/o Arigna, Carrick on Shannon, Co Roscommon offers advice on wind energy issues generally. Tel. 078 46072; email: office@iwea.com;

Ø Meitheal na Gaoithe, 42 Parliament Street, Kilkenny represent the interests of farmers and others based in rural communities who want to participate in the Irish renewable energy industry, particularly in wind energy projects. Tel. 056 – 7752111;

Ø Commission for Energy Regulation (CER), is responsible for overseeing the liberalisation of Ireland’s energy sector. The CER also issues the authorisations and licences which are required for all electricity generating plants (Tel 01 4000800);

Ø ESB National Grid – information on grid connection application process for wind generators, new grid code for wind and dynamic modelling of wind turbine generators.

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Originally Posted by klein4

I saw a good programme once ... said that ireland has one of the highest potentials to exploit wind energy in europe but with one of the lowest uses of it. I know in greece that all the houses have some form of solar power on the roofs of the gaffs. why cant we have wee wind mills on the gaffs here (or something like that but a bit more well thought out)? what has government to lose by bein more eco friendly?pure feckin laziness is all.

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Not true. Bald student has already pointed out one problem with wind power, but there's a much bigger one.

You cannot have more than about 10% of your power coming from wind.

I don't seem to be able to explain this well, so I've chopped down what I was going to post to these two basic facts:

• You need as much power being generated now as you have demand.
• Wind power isn't predictable.

Those two things make for some big technical headaches.

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Originally Posted by pete

Nuclear anyone?

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Not really. Much like oil, there's only so much uranium in the world. :(

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Originally Posted by John83

You cannot have more than about 10% of your power coming from wind...

• You need as much power being generated now as you have demand.
• Wind power isn't predictable.

Those two things make for some big technical headaches.

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But surely when coupled with the development of fuel cell technology this could satisfy a fair proportion of demand. And you can't tell me that we can't do something with tidal power in the next couple of decades, us being surrounded by seas on all sides... :confused:

Political will is what's needed and we won't get it from the current crop of oil puppets that are in charge. :mad:

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

Political will is what's needed and we won't get it from the current crop of oil puppets that are in charge.

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No, the problem is technical, not political. There are a lot of people working on solutions to these problems but a politician cannot gamble the future well-being of a country on a technology that has not yet been invented.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

No, the problem is technical, not political. There are a lot of people working on solutions to these problems but a politician cannot gamble the future well-being of a country on a technology that has not yet been invented.

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And no-one is suggesting that politicians should (although Bliar's attempts to annex the UK's future energy generating capacity to US-led nookilar corporations smacks of much the same thing). The technology for wind and wave power in the form I've talked about has been available for a generation. As an example, do you by any chance remember the Cardiff Bay tidal barrage scheme in the late 1980s? Stopped from proceeding by a lack of political will. What about the Non-Fossil Fuel Obligation (NFFO), the UK scheme whereby 10% of generating capacity had to be from non-fossil renewable sources? Dropped quietly due to a lack of political will. Am I making the case more clearly now?

Political will is what's needed and we won't get it from the current crop of oil puppets that are in charge. :mad:

:ball: PP

I don't see Tidal wave technology as feasable. How much of the area around the country would have to be taken up with these plants? Would be many parts of the country unsuitable as too calm...

Growing plants to create fuel is stupid too as would have no room left to grow food & probably use so much energy creating the biofuel that not make sense...

I was just mulling over all this lately.
There's a resevoir about quarter of a mile behind my house and on a height. I reckon a windmill erected there would power the 50 or so houses plus nthe two second level schools in the vicinity of Hamish Towers (:D ) with plenty of electricity just like what happens in the Hebrides and other places.
There would be no visual despoilation either as it's out of sight a bit - in fact a windmill would make the place look better even:D

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

The technology for wind and wave power in the form I've talked about has been available for a generation. As an example, do you by any chance remember the Cardiff Bay tidal barrage scheme in the late 1980s? Stopped from proceeding by a lack of political will. What about the Non-Fossil Fuel Obligation (NFFO), the UK scheme whereby 10% of generating capacity had to be from non-fossil renewable sources? Dropped quietly due to a lack of political will. Am I making the case more clearly now?

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You're not, I'm afraid. The technology you talked about (wind powering a fuel cell) has been around for decades and has not been implemented because it's stupidly expensive, it's about ten times the price of feeding the wind directly onto the grid (sorry for not having any links but most of my information comes from lectures which are not online). Fuel cells have the advantege that they're portable and scalable. They're not likely to be connected to the grid in any significant ammount because pumping water up and down a hill beats them hands down on price.

The only serious attempt at wave power that I'm aware of is a scale model of a machiene being tested off the coast of Scotland. It did look quite good and may well become a functioning product in a few years time.

I'm not aware of the Cardiff Bay scheme but I can look it up when I get into college on Monday because I'll have access to the electronic journals then. I'm less than convinced that there is much power to be gotten from the tide. I did some quick maths to verify this. I'm not sure how much the tide rises by so I guessed 2 meters, if anyone has the correct figure feel free to mention it and I'll adjust the numbers. Also does the tide come in once or twice a day? I guessed once but if that's wrong let me know. I've concluded that for every square kilometer of bay you section off you get about 230kW of energy (averaged over a day). This is just under 1 tenth of the maximum power generated by a single wind turbine of the type off the Arklow coast. I have been slightly unfair to the tidal power in the comparison because I averaged it's power over a day and I have no idea how a wind turbine's power averages over a day.

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Maths:
A tide of 2 meters (m) means an average increase in water hight of 1m.
Energy stored equals height times mass times a constant (9.8).
Mass of 1 square meter of water is 1,000kg.

1,000kg x 1m x 9.8 = 9,800 ... energy in 1 sq meter of water.

Volume of water equals 1km x 1km x 2m = 2,000,000 meters squared.

9,800 x 2,000,000 = 19,600,000,000 joules ... total energy

number of seconds in a day = 24 hours times 60 mins times 60 sec = 86,400

19,600,000,000 divided by 86,400 = 226800 ... energy per second (watts)

1 kilowatt (kw) = 1,000 watts

energy per second (power) = 227kw ... about enough energy to power 100 houses or about 0.005% of total energy generated in Ireland

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Originally Posted by pete

I don't see Tidal wave technology as feasable. How much of the area around the country would have to be taken up with these plants? Would be many parts of the country unsuitable as too calm...

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I'm talking about a bay barrage where cyclical wave power drives turbines which themselves generate electricity. The Severn Bore between England and Wales is a particularly large-scale example of where this could work; as for where in Ireland I'd have to have a good think about that although could Galway Bay, the Foyle and Lagan estuaries not be considered for starters? Tidal power is a totally renewable source and one that could form a significant contribution to future generating capacity in these islands if the political will and economic incentives are there.

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Originally Posted by pete

Growing plants to create fuel is stupid too as would have no room left to grow food & probably use so much energy creating the biofuel that not make sense...

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I'd hardly call it stupid (although in principle growing plants for biodiesel shouldn't displace food production, especially in poorer countries) as there's no reason why plants for this purpose can't be grown on a much larger scale than now and then blended in with petrodiesel in much greater proportions. After all, that's what Mister Diesel himself said all those years ago. It's carbon-neutral (the carbon captured when the source plants were grown is all that's released back into the atmosphere) and - with the right financial levers from Government - could form a large contribution to meeting Kyoto targets on CO2 emissions.

On a slight remove, this may sound daft but it's actually easy to refine biodiesel from used vegetable oil. There's a fledgeling industry here in the UK for reprocessing this (and several filling stations to stock it) but thanks to the Treasury's recent closure of a duty loophole on reprocessed biodiesel the financial advantage has gone. So much for green government. :mad:

:ball: PP

Looks like the Severn/Cardiff Bay tidal barrage scheme has been revived.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/st...761579,00.html

:ball: PP

And the Scots are making proper use of their wind... ;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/renewable/...763507,00.html

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

And the Scots are making proper use of their wind... ;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/renewable/...763507,00.html

:ball: PP

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From TFA, "There are 125 windfarms in the UK, including four offshore, generating just over 1% of the UK's electricity."

We already generate a higher percentage of our power from wind, IIRC.

Ethanol is a HUGE talking point over here in the States right now with regards to alternative transport fuel. Theres a whole crying match going on right now about the price of petrol, er sorry gas (what do you expect when yer big @ss SUV gets 15 mpg FFS) so the whole "alternative fuel" debate is taking off. But I've heard it mentioned a few times now, that about 30 years ago Brazil thought "fook this, we need to look after ourselves", well they are now on the verge of becoming COMPLETELY energy self sufficient - and peeps over here are thinking "oi, we need to look at how they done that!!".

Lets all copy Brazil!!!

Ethanol is good. And we could pay the sugar beet farmers to continue growing it as a source of ethanol now that there is no EU sugar industry to grow it for. Wouldn't that be a sensible approach? Instead of paying them compo, to do nothing, pay them the same money to grow sugar beet for fuel.

Oil seed rape is a source of fuel , a vegetable oil, which has successfully been used in converted petroleum burning vehicles.
Another source is second hand grease from chippers.

I don't see how growing crops can sustain energy needs. Surely there isn't enough land in the world to grow these crops.

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Originally Posted by pete

I don't see how growing crops can sustain energy needs. Surely there isn't enough land in the world to grow these crops.

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I see where Brazil will be energy self sufficent by 2007 - they focused on ethanol from the 1970s and it seems to have worked. They also have good relations with Venezuala should oil be needed and would get the fuel at a good price too.
Anyone see that insert on Sky News yesterday about an off-shore wind farm (off the coast of Cumbria) which would power 50,000 homes (150,000 to 200,000 people I guess) but there are problems in how it would connected up and who was going to pay for it.
One problem with nuclear power is that it is massively subsidised and the massive storage costs of waste are NOT included in the costs when its proponents are discussing how "cheap" it is. We've, I think, already covered the dangers associated with it on another thread and the limited supply of uranium available (mostly, but not all, from Australia I think).
George Monbiot, a campaigner for alternative energy (frequent Guardian writer) has now started supporting "clean Gas" as a potential energy provider along with windmills, wave etc sources.

Hasn't Germany had great success with energy saving strategies?? I feel that there should be a government policy to make it attractive for builders to make houses that conserve energy - solar power for roofs etc etc etc.
I reckon an aggressive energy saving policy would hugely reduce our dependency on imported fuels. In Oregon cities, such a policy is proving to be actually financially profitable even for those involved in the transportation industry. More details if I can find the US website that dealt on this.

Hamish
The Province of Quebec in Canada is also a source of Uranium.