Don't know if this has been discussed on a thread yet, but wtf is going on?
Printable View
Don't know if this has been discussed on a thread yet, but wtf is going on?
Anarchy - brewing for a long time. Scary thing about it is that the segregation that sparked this happens in every country. Lets hope its not a sign of things to come. :mad:
I am glad however that they havent gone down the terrorist route. At least these boys are making a point. I have to sympathise with their situation somewhat though.
Anyone else think of the (excellent) film "La haine" when they hear about the riots?
France is so fcuked up with race its unbelievable...
Thankfuuly, it's not going to happen here. We don't have segregation of any kind here, AFAIK. All people I know who aren't from Ireland live with Irish people and get on really well with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn_Run
I think it's more of a classist thing though. I saw a bit on Sky News bout it and they all lived in big apartment blocks on the outskirts of Paris.
Those fires (3 different incidents) in the Paris area where Imigrant families perished would certainly not have helped the situation.:(
France has had this coming for years. Their approach towards the 10%+ of their population who are immigrant has been woeful. Stick them in the sh!tty suburbs with no jobs, education or future and pretend they don't exist.
The big problem now, however, is that how do you get the genie back in the bottle ? The riots will probably fizzle out (I bet the government is praying for bad weather, as that usually kills riots...), but they have opened some serious wounds.
I'm not convinced that France as a nation is well-placed to tackle the fundamental issues at the root of the problem.
Our immigrant communities are so small that they're bound to be well mixed in with Irish people.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
That could very easily change as time goes on, however. For example - communities want to be located near their own place of worship, cultural centres, shops and friends. Once non-white ethnic groups start to become noticeable in a particular area, the existing indigenous population tend to start to drfit away - exacerbating the concentration of ethnic people. It's very easy for an enclave/'ghetto' to begin and extremely difficult to reverse the process.
This dynamic has happened the world over - there is no reason why Ireland would be any different unless the country recognises this and works to prevent ghettoisation occuring.
Quote:
Anyone else think of the (excellent) film "La haine"
ya was thinking the exact thing.
Quote:
That could very easily change as time goes on, however. For example - communities want to be located near their own place of worship, cultural centres, shops and friends. Once non-white ethnic groups start to become noticeable in a particular area, the existing indigenous population tend to start to drfit away - exacerbating the concentration of ethnic people. It's very easy for an enclave/'ghetto' to begin and extremely difficult to reverse the process.
tahts not always the case. it often occurs, because these areas are cheaper to live ( i.e. rent )and therefore those less well off i..e immigrants go live there as a consequence.
Same here.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I know some Serbs who lived in Saint Denis. They were the last Europeans to leave their street. One by one each house became replaced with Arabs or Africans. They really packed the houses out too with 10 people or over. The safety and quality of the area went down the drain and they moved out like everyone else had done. This was a grand area with decent houses by the way. Steve is quite right, it is a process that is actually initiated by immigrants and it's up to a government to stop this before it goes beyond control. Do we have any areas in Dublin which are becoming concentrated with any ethnic group?
Exactly what I was thinking when I heard about this whole thing.I love French cinema.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Basically, I agree with most others here in that the 'rioters' for want of a beter word are in a dire situation where they have no hope.They might not achieve anything with all this, but they will sure as hell feel good for a while.
My school went on a trip to Paris before, and we were near enough to one of the suburbs involved the current situation, and it certainly wasn't a place with any sense of hope.
They may just make their situation worse. The French can only tend towards the direction against them if you ask me. Increased secularisation, preserve the integrity of the almighty republic yaddah yaddah yah. If Le Pen could secure the amount of votes he did last time without this how may he or his party fare next time around?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soper
That is exactly what i was thinking .... its like it was forecasted ... so far, so good, so far, so good !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
You're right to at least some degree Paul, but the reason why ethnic enclaves exist in parts of London (e.g. the Polish in Hammersmith/Tooting, Lebanese/Arabs in Edgeware Road, Koreans in New Malden, Portuguese in Stockwell etc etc) is not just due to the availability of cheap accommodation. It may initially begin due to that, but then the attraction is equally or more due to the fact that you can exist amongst your own community. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - the Irish did it for centuries - but it can lead to social problems if left unmanaged.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Regardless of how the creation of an enclave begins, the dynamic it creates is usually the same - i.e. displacement of the existing community, and their replacement by further members of the new ethnic group. Again - this isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as the members of the new enclave embrace and feel fully involved in their new country, and the enclave doesn't become a 'ghetto'.
To clarify Poor Student - such a dynamic doesn't have to be a bad thing. The Irish have been creating enclaves in Britain and the US for centuries. Some ethnic eclaves can make huge contributions towards areas - particualrly areas that were losing their vitality, facilities etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
The traditional trend with ethnic enclaves is that a certain group moves to a cheaper area in numbers, an enclave develops, but it disappears within 2-3 generations as the members of that group assimiliate into the broader society and their economic circumstances improve (they move to better housing). They then tend to be replaced by a new ethnic group, and the process starts again.
Where it all goes wrong is when an enclave become a ghetto - i.e. the people there don't have access to the opportunities they require to improve their situation and move-on from the enclave, and as a result they become completely cut-off from the surrounding world. There are plenty of examples of where ethnic enclaves can and do make a positive contribution towards an area. I live in one in London (Stockwell - 40,000 Portuguese in the surrounding area). The problem in France is that the conveyor belt of opportunity out of the enclaves has been stopped - turning them into hope-devoid ghettos on the fringes of society.
And to show it's not just an ethnic thing, a similar dynamic often happens in the UK with regards students. Once an area gets a certain concentration of students, lots of other properties in the area tend to go that way. The sense of an integrated community declines (due primaily to the transient nature of students). Familes, professionals etc often move out - sometime for positive reasons such as cashing-in on the value of their property. But before you know it you have a relatively isolated parallel world existing inside and alongside the 'normal' community. This is obviously not a question of access to opportunity, but it shows that having a non-integrated parallel world existing within/alongside another one is not restricted solely to the issue of immigration and ethnicity.
If I remember correctly, I think it was the French who were saying that nothing like the L.A. riots, circa 1992, could happen in France,...oh well, guess someone was wrong.
The only concentration I know of is the muslems living here near the mosque. I remember in my sisters' school they had the rule that the moslem girls weren't alloed to wear their head-scarf except on the days that the caretaker (the only male employee) was in working. It was a silly rule but the point is that we get on grand here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
The only complaint I would have is that the old men from these hot countries put the sauna in the gym so bloody hot that you can burn the inside of your lungs.
Isn't the Dorset Street and Parnell Street areas now seen as African enclaves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
No. As many Chinese and eastern European living there as African.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderblaster
cracking film alrite - la haineQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
think that film was actually based on the troubles in paris around early 90's . Some young fella shot by a cop
not 100% certain of facts.
The policies in France for these "cités" are like a time bomb. Theyve just been creating ghettos for a long time now and its only a matter of time.
Shocking again tonight there has been trouble and it's ridiculous and typical of the French to do very little to resolve the issues etc - is this the 13th night of trouble? :confused: :eek: My friend will be travelling to Paris with her parents in 2 weeks, and is very worried, I told her it should be ok by then, just see how it is over the next few days/week. She is worried as some foreigners have been attacked.
Bit of a reality check required by your friend to be fair GT. Unless she's in the very outer-suburbs concerned, she'll be right as rain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Tribe
It'd be like visiting central Dublin, and being worried cause there was some trouble in Leixlip or Howth.....
I'd be surprised if it's stil ongoing in 2 weeks time anyway. Heads will have rolled by then if it is...
:D I know, I've told her that :rolleyes: Sometimes I just think she likes to hear the sound of her own voice. Think she is worried more so because a few tourists from her country were attacked by rioters, never heard this myself mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
On the other hand if it still going on in two weeks, expect it to spread out from the areas affected at the minute
This is what happens when you let too immigrants into your country who are too
different culturally from the native people, they tend to congregate in urban ghettos. Can see lots of trouble ahead especially with miltant Islam causing trouble everywhere you look!!
Where exactly are these Irish enclaves you see in London/Britain, after one/two generations most of the Irish have integrated. This won't happen in places likeQuote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Bradford, Leicester because they are too cultually different and have not integrated.
A sensible thread up until know. read all the posts here, then read a cpouple of newspapers. Then get a clue....Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
Oh! God how stupid of me, I should have been reading the Guardian and the Independent!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
If you'd actually been reading previous messages, rather than the latest edition of 'Hitler Youth Weekly', you might have seen that the above has already been mentioned/covered. Keep up.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
Anyway - haven't you got some immigrants to abuse somewhere...?
This is what happens when you let people with poor diction and spelling, not to mention a very limited grasp of social issues, join web forums..... :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
Surely the French government will have surrenedered long before then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
There is no quick fix to this. French labour laws allow high unemployment to exist. The poor kids in the tower blocks are poorly educated and this enhances this unemployment situation in these sectors of society. You can't change there things overnight. It's going to be a long road to solve this thing.
However, I can't see the current rate of rioting continuing for long more. A few weeks maybe and then it should start to calm down as the government will promise all sorts of quick fixes that won;t really achieve anything.
As an aside to that, there's currentlya feud between 2 Paris St. Germain supporters' groups; The Tigres Mystique (left leaning, multiracial) and Bolougne Boys (right leaning, genreally white) which seem they battle at practically every game (they're segregated, even at away games). It was heightened when the "Boys" attacked some tiger property in the suburb where it all kicked off. The interior minister has already met with bith sides...
Apparently there's a huge riot planned for Sunday...
And you are an example of a social worker with his head in the sand, they wouldn't have the problems/issues if they didn't let them in....:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Are all the people contributing to the forum members of the SWP...
No, I hate the SWP and their ilk as much as I hate ill-informed right wing views on immigration and law & order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
KOH
No. I don't even think any of us are members of the SWP. Thoughh thanks for checking. Are you the last of our nation's Bluershirts ? Thank God we've finally unearthed someone with such a sophisticated understanding of social issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
Perhaps you'd also have considered that the major Euroopean economies (France, uk, Germany etc) wouldn't have half the economies they currently have without immigration ? And in particular would have declining growth rates and even faster ageing populations, creating equally as troublesome social and economic issues. Living in London, I can guarantee you that this city would literally grind to a halt and fall apart without its migrant workers. Who the hell do you think is the doing all the jobs that France requires doing in order to function (transport, health, municipal care etc) but that the French themselves don't want to do ? And don't claim that unemployment is high enough in France for the French themselves to fill these roles - France has it's current unemployment levels because of structural problems and antiquated regulations - not because the middle-class French are being denied their yearning to become bus drivers or bin-men by plucky young Algerians.
Anyways - given that France spent decades/centuries raping the countries that a lot of their immigrant population come form (particularly Algeria, where they used chemical weapons in the Independence War) there are many who would argue that the situation is just being reversed. Former Imperial powers can't have it both ways....
Oh my God...can't believe people like this still exist. Are you from the 1960s?Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
'don't let them in'-How would the British economy (you, like me, are in London) survive without the goldmine of immigrant labour, providing a cheaper, and more skilled, alternative to locals who really don't want to do some of these jobs anyway. I live in an area full of different races, and the only racial problems we have are with ignorant individuals such as yourselves. Immigration isn't the problem here, social ignorance and deprivation is.
I think me and Steve are singing from the same sheet here. Sorry to double post-Steve's a bit more eloquent than me!
I haven't lived in France so don't feel qualified to comment on when just visit as a tourist. I still don't think this is a uniquely french situation & that comments like "this could never happen here" are misguided as we have small immigrant numbers & pretty much full employment. I wonder what will happen in Ireland when immigrant numbers treble (won't take very long) & we have 7% unemployment?
Why will immigrant numbers treble Pete?
Even the PDs admit that we need lots more migrant workers just to fill current positions in the workforce. And we'll need more and more as time goes on. Talk of 7% unemployment is just scaremongering and worse, it's scaremongering that even rabid right-wing politicians don't go in for.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
As others pointed out immigration has helped make London in particular a great city, both economically and culturally. And as for France, they are reaping what they sowed in North Africa and elsewhere.
KOH