Prime time last night

Had Eoin Hand shouting Kerrs corner from the Cork studio and with Mark Woods in Dublinia were Dolan and Dunphy.
Pat and Eamo had a bit of a love in. Agreeing on everything.
I nearly got the gawk.
Eamo wants Kerr out, constantly pushing the point that Kerr had no experience of managing at a senior level, true but he has managed most of these players at under age level, they are the same people.
Dolan pushing the build up from the grass roots etc etc. and neatly mentioning we are in crisis as the U21's haven't won in over a year.

All it was missing was Alan Hunter.

Have to say that Dunphy and Dolan spoke a lot of sense last night. As for Eoin Hand, what a plonker he is. He spoke nothing but sh!te, while at the same time trying not to upset the FAI. Hand is such a bitter fcuker. He can't accept the fact that Jack Charlton and Mick McCarthy brought us World Cup Finals, but himself and his domestic comrade, Kerr failed to do so. He seemed upset that Mick McCarthy got three chances to get us to a World Cup and Kerr wont. The difference was that Mick got us to play-offs, while beating the likes of Croatia and Yugoslavia in competitive games. Things visibly improved. On the other hand, Kerr has left Irish football in a dismal state. Get over it Eoin. Both you and Kerr had your chances.

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Originally Posted by TheJamaicanP.M.

Have to say that Dunphy and Dolan spoke a lot of sense last night. As for Eoin Hand, what a plonker he is.

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Is that where Dunphy said the FAI have a very professional organisation now and and excellent CEO. Jesus I nearly choked on my fig roll.
Hand does have some sort of axe to grind, you can see that.

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Originally Posted by TheJamaicanP.M.

Have to say that Dunphy a lot of sense last night. .

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:eek: :eek:

You can't win with Dunphy. The last 3 managers we've had have failed to match his expectations, the previous two bringing unprecedented success at international level. He won't be happy until Joe Kinnear gets the job and then he'll turn against him as well.

I agree with what Mark Lawrenson said on Today FM. Unless we can bring in someone who is palpably better than Kerr then we should stick with him for another campaign. There is no point in change for the sake of change and we're talking the likes of Brian Robson, Kenny Dalglish, Peter Reid etc here. Now Ron Atkinson would be a different kettle of fish :D

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Originally Posted by razor

Hand does have some sort of axe to grind, you can see that.

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Am I correct in saying that Eoin Hand is the only one mentioned there who is an FAI employee?

Eoin Hand was on the 6/1 news aswell I think, basicially saying he was
in the same situation back in '83 but didnt run for the job again as he
knew the knives were out and he's had enough

Surely Dolan didnt say anythiing negative about Kerr? (or is he looking for the senior job! :eek: )

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

:eek: :eek:

You can't win with Dunphy. The last 3 managers we've had have failed to match his expectations, the previous two bringing unprecedented success at international level. He won't be happy until Joe Kinnear gets the job and then he'll turn against him as well.

I agree with what Mark Lawrenson said on Today FM. Unless we can bring in someone who is palpably better than Kerr then we should stick with him for another campaign. There is no point in change for the sake of change and we're talking the likes of Brian Robson, Kenny Dalglish, Peter Reid etc here. Now Ron Atkinson would be a different kettle of fish :D

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That's a fair point about Dunphy and his treatment of our managers. However, for those of you who remember his other appearances on Prime Time - after we lost to Holland in December 1995 and during Saipan in May 2002 - you would be struck by the more mellow approach which Dunphy adopted. I'm not a fan of his but was impressed with how he conducted himself. Also, when you hear Dunphy praising the FAI its worth paying attention. Dunphy has always despised the FAI so they must finally be getting things right when he praises them.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Eoin Hand was on the 6/1 news aswell I think, basicially saying he was
in the same situation back in '83 but didnt run for the job again as he
knew the knives were out and he's had enough

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:eek: Christ I got some scare when I read that. On first glance I thought it said "Eoin Hand is 6/1 on"

In fairness to Hand he all but brought us to Espana 82 only for a Portuguese referee (Nazare) who was almost certainly bribed by the Belgians (Anderlect were proved to be bribing all round them at the time as came out many years later) as no referee can be that incompetent.

Subsequent to that it went pear shaped and he had to go after 2 poor campaigns.

It should also be noted that Hand had a fantastic bunch of players in 82 - Lawrenson, O'Leary, Brady Stapleton, Daly, Heighway etc etc and rumour has it that he didn't pick the team but ultimately we were robbed of a place in Spain.

Even after Nazare we still only lost out on goal difference to France who scored 7 on grass in Limassol against Cyprus while the Dutch, Belgians and ourselves all won by 1 on sand in Nicosia.

dolan wants the u21 job

It was a very good (but short) debate on last nights show. I’m glad to see RTE get some things right and cover these important matters.

Dolan Hand and Dunphy by in large did talk a lot of sense. They kind of split the manager problem away from the other major problem (THE LACK OF QUALITY PLAYERS).

Dunphy tried to explain away Ireland’s poor performance as being Kerr’s fault. That is complete tosh in my opinion. He looks up to English managers as if they are god The one thing that cuts them above Kerr IMO is the fact that they have very strong personalities and wont take any crap from the media.

Personally now that I have calmed down after the WCQ's I think Kerr did an ok job with a few unlucky mistakes. He is media naive and is too meek in some respects. I know for a fact an English manager like Sam Allerdice wouldn’t have put up with the same stick as Brian Kerr and he probably would have been offered a new 2 year contract. I don’t think a new manager will solve Ireland’s problems and doubt if we can make the next world cup no matter whom we have in charge unless we find another 2- 3 world class players.

The topic that they didn’t go into too much and I thought was the REAL ISSUE in Irish football is the lack of quality players. I nearly tore my hair out listening to Giles on Newstalk last night. He said the fans don’t care where the players come from and poured scorn on the grass roots approach. For me he is now a stupid old man who has lost his marbles when it comes to talking about the game. We were known as the England B team back then and I don’t want ever to be called that again. I never liked seeing all the English players representing us. Giles doesn’t care about Irish football; he is as English as the English themselves since he spent most of his life over there and he has always approached Irish football from an English perspective.

He also reckoned that Irish players should go to England as early as they can. It just shows how out of touch and old his ideas are. Most Irish players going to England don’t make it; they waste away at the lower divisions learning nothing. They would have a better chance here if they could work on their technical ability and knowledge of the game in a club with European ambitions.

Delaney mentioned a football academy for the country. Personally I think it would be a god send. We need something like that for our underage players. France had similar problems in qualifying for major championships and Clarefointaine did wonders for the country. Of course we can’t expect the same world success but we can expect our clubs to compete in UEFA Cup and Champions’ League football and the national team to qualify for major championships more regularly with an academy.

I wonder if you made a list of the truely great Irish players who actually made the grade in England, what would be the average age of these players?

Paul McGrath - 22 before he went over.
Kevin Moran - About 21 I'd reckon
Roy Keane - 19 was he?

Just three off the top of my head. Obviously the current crop all went over when they were kids, but how amny have really made it?

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

Delaney mentioned a football academy for the country. Personally I think it would be a god send. We need something like that for our underage players. France had similar problems in qualifying for major championships and Clarefointaine did wonders for the country. Of course we can’t expect the same world success but we can expect our clubs to compete in UEFA Cup and Champions’ League football and the national team to qualify for major championships more regularly with an academy.

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Agreed, and other improvements can be made too.

I also couldn't believe what I heard when Dumpy said the FAI was "...a serious organisation" & "...had an excellent CEO" :eek:

Eoin Hand was compromised as he works for the FAI.

Dumpy is the typical hurler on the ditch - always complains but never offers solutions. He said none of the candidates on the list except O'Neill were suitable but when pushed to name someone else couldn't come up with a name.

Yeah good point Pete, its easy to have a go at the person in charge but if you cant think of a better idea it looks like barstooler stuff.

The FAIlure does look like it has sharpened up its act in fairness. I wouldnt say its completely reformed from its corupt ways but there are signs of improvements.

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

Dolan Hand and Dunphy by in large did talk a lot of sense. They kind of split the manager problem away from the other major problem (THE LACK OF QUALITY PLAYERS).

Dunphy tried to explain away Ireland’s poor performance as being Kerr’s fault. That is complete tosh in my opinion. He looks up to English managers as if they are god The one thing that cuts them above Kerr IMO is the fact that they have very strong personalities and wont take any crap from the media.

Personally now that I have calmed down after the WCQ's I think Kerr did an ok job with a few unlucky mistakes. He is media naive and is too meek in some respects. I know for a fact an English manager like Sam Allerdice wouldn’t have put up with the same stick as Brian Kerr and he probably would have been offered a new 2 year contract. I don’t think a new manager will solve Ireland’s problems and doubt if we can make the next world cup no matter whom we have in charge unless we find another 2- 3 world class players.

The topic that they didn’t go into too much and I thought was the REAL ISSUE in Irish football is the lack of quality players. I nearly tore my hair out listening to Giles on Newstalk last night. He said the fans don’t care where the players come from and poured scorn on the grass roots approach. For me he is now a stupid old man who has lost his marbles when it comes to talking about the game. We were known as the England B team back then and I don’t want ever to be called that again. I never liked seeing all the English players representing us. Giles doesn’t care about Irish football; he is as English as the English themselves since he spent most of his life over there and he has always approached Irish football from an English perspective.

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Name anybody in the Swiss or Israeli team in the same class as Given, Roy Keane or Damien Duff.

The players we have are as good as anything under McCarthy. Even at this worst (Keane sweeper home to Iceland, Harte centre half and Gary Kelly up front) we still made the playoffs.

We've come 3rd and 4th respectively in 2 weak groups.

I agree, I was a supporter of Kerr when he got the job and I really thought we would do well under him. Away to Holland and all the signs of a team finally having a purpose about them. But the facts are that over the last 2 years and 9 months of football only 110 minutes of it have been a joy to watch in a game that meant anything


90 minutes against France and 20 minutes against Israel at home. However I do think that we should only replace Kerr if we have somone that is better lined up.

To me this includes

Martin O Neil

Ferguson/Keane

Hiddink

David O Leary.

Outside of that I think we would be going backwards.

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Name anybody in the Swiss or Israeli team in the same class as Given, Roy Keane or Damien Duff.

The players we have are as good as anything under McCarthy. Even at this worst (Keane sweeper home to Iceland, Harte centre half and Gary Kelly up front) we still made the playoffs.

We've come 3rd and 4th respectively in 2 weak groups.

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Undefeated Israel is it? What do you know of the Israeli league? I think yer man Beniyoun looks as good as Duffer this season so far, but I don't know enough about their league to comment in general, just cos they not in the EPL doesn't mean they aren't any good.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

However I do think that we should only replace Kerr if we have somone that is better lined up.

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And lots would agree with you there but this again is a matter of opinion.
Whose to say who is "better", at the end of the day.

Take Roy Keane, Duff and Given out you ain't left with much imo. Certainly I don't think we could ever knock it around like the swiss did in the first half on Wednesday.

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Originally Posted by razor

Is that where Dunphy said the FAI have a very professional organisation now and and excellent CEO. Jesus I nearly choked on my fig roll.
Hand does have some sort of axe to grind, you can see that.

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Dunphy actually described Delaney as an 'outstanding CEO'. My head also went in a spin when I heard this.

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Originally Posted by razor

And lots would agree with you there but this again is a matter of opinion.
Whose to say who is "better", at the end of the day.

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Israel are better than us, they finished ahead of us in the group.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Israel are better than us, they finished ahead of us in the group.

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I meant someone better than Kerr, was speaking purely from a managerial perspective.

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Originally Posted by TheJamaicanP.M.

That's a fair point about Dunphy and his treatment of our managers. However, for those of you who remember his other appearances on Prime Time - after we lost to Holland in December 1995 and during Saipan in May 2002 - you would be struck by the more mellow approach which Dunphy adopted. I'm not a fan of his but was impressed with how he conducted himself. Also, when you hear Dunphy praising the FAI its worth paying attention. Dunphy has always despised the FAI so they must finally be getting things right when he praises them.

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The way I see Dunphy's mellowness. Dunphy always has to find the angle in which to grind an axe, that's his raison d'être. He appears gracious after Ireland's hopes eventually crumble, imo it is method acting, he is just purring from the satisfaction of the result finally vindicating his sense of righteousness.

As mentioned above Giles was on Newstalk last night.

he was asked if we should be keeping (and coaching) our players in Ireland til 18 or maybe longer before sending abroad. Giles dismissed this as no use as he felt you would be delaying the kids learning their trade. He was basically saying no poi8nt trying to develop kids at home as we can't do it & they better in the UK - also he said we should basically search the globe for anyone with irish connections as no one cares as long we get results.

I lost any respect i had left for Giles last night. Now i know why he never watches the eL or could care less about irish football.

:(

Giles has lost his marbles. Does he honestly think that the Irish public want to support 11 players in the first team who were never born in Ireland??. Get real Giles. We've moved on from being the England B team.

Ive lost all respect for Giles too Pete. I just see Giles now as a fella who left for England when he was starting out and has a immigrants rosey eyed view of England. He is holding the country back from moving in the right direction. His view of football is an antiquated one and he should shut the **** up. Roddy Colins was right in what he said about Giles.

The fact of the matter is that bar Duff, Given and Robbie Keane (only at his best) the rest of the Irish team are journey men with little technial skill. Giles fails to realise this or reckons technical skill is important.

Most countries develop their own youth so that they have a high base layer of player. I.E a journey man who can play with a very good level of technical skill but might not be a great player. Sprinkle 4 or 5 world class players in key positions and you have a excellent team.

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

Most countries develop their own youth so that they have a high base layer of player. I.E a journey man who can play with a very good level of technical skill but might not be a great player. Sprinkle 4 or 5 world class players in key positions and you have a excellent team.

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And this is exactly what countries like switzerland, israel and most notably France did. That's why they've overtaken us. It beggars belief that even now people refuse to see this.

Think it's the mirror that has about the lessons we should learn from Scotland. First one should be not to rely on English football (including the two Pseudo epl old firm clubs) to produce your talent. Mind you, don't think scully mentioned that either....

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I agree, I was a supporter of Kerr when he got the job and I really thought we would do well under him. Away to Holland and all the signs of a team finally having a purpose about them. But the facts are that over the last 2 years and 9 months of football only 110 minutes of it have been a joy to watch in a game that meant anything


90 minutes against France and 20 minutes against Israel at home. However I do think that we should only replace Kerr if we have somone that is better lined up.

To me this includes

Martin O Neil

Ferguson/Keane

Hiddink

David O Leary.

Outside of that I think we would be going backwards.

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agree wholeheartedly with this apart from the idea of backnig kerr, i thought he was too naive and green to be managing a senior international team hoping to qualify for major tournaments, but hoped he would prove me wrong. unfortunately he has made TOO MANY BIG MISTAKES to be given another chance. its easy say that he has made mistakes and learns blah de blah, but had he not we would have won the group or made the play offs at least. SINCE KERR took over we ARE GOING DOWNHILL, 3rd and 4th respectively, we always made a play off under mccarthy with more inpexperienced players and harder groups. Something tells me as well that kerr would be happy going to the top two games away from home in the euro 2008 and being happy with a nother draw. and doing that stupid smirk of his.

Was very glad to hear Pat Dolan put across that it was a lack of quality in the players that was our real problem and that training at roots level and the eircom League is the only way forward. I am pretty sure his dig at the under-21's not winning in the last year was also a hint at wanting that job though. :D Although it does make a change from the "Kerr Out" (for the sake of it) being spouted out by the tabloids and the fantasy that Martin O'Neill will come on board.

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Originally Posted by Clifford

Undefeated Israel is it? What do you know of the Israeli league? I think yer man Beniyoun looks as good as Duffer this season so far, but I don't know enough about their league to comment in general, just cos they not in the EPL doesn't mean they aren't any good.

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I think Israel deserve huge credit for what they've done and are justified in feeling unlucky in not qualifying for at least the playoffs.

However I think we have far better players - Duff in playing at Chelsea one of the favourites for the champions league. Keane has been one of Europe's top players for 13 years at Manchester United and probably their best player in the period. Given is one of the top keepers in the EPL - 2nd best IMO.

Benayoun plays for West Ham (just promoted) having been signed from Racing Santander. In fairness he is probably too good for them but nobody else tried to sign him. I don't know much of the Israeli league but their clubs are not making an impact at the highest level of club football nor are their players.

In fairness swiss football is better at the moment with FC Thun making an imapct in the champions league however I stand over my original comment that we have better players than Switzerland and Israel.

However we clearly don't have a better team than either of them. This is down to the manager. It worked in reverse in the late 80's and 90's when the tema was better than the players individually.

I was concerned at the end of the Euro2004 campaign that we were not up for the 2 biggest games in the group - Russia home and Switzerland away. Results can be excused but performances less so. Kerr got mit right last year in Paris and Basle was a case of the result justifying the means.

This year even allowing for the defeat to France (which is excusable) we had 3 shocking performances and an average one on wednesday.

1) Israel away - they were there for the taking but we failed to press home the advantage - stupid tactic of sitting on a 1-0 lead

2) Israel home - 2 up at home playing well - why change tactics and sit on a 2-0 lead?

3) Cyprus away - great first 5 minutes then sat on a 1-0 lead and escaped thanks to extreme good luck and great goalkeeping.

4) Switzerland home - great passion and guts but no cutting edge and poor substitiutons. The Swiss made all the decent chances and could well regret not going for the goal that would have sent them to Germany.

We have finished 3rd and 4th in our last 2 qualifying campaigns - Charlton and McCarthy's worst finish was 2nd.

well Said.

I don't disagree that tatical mistakes were made, but I think you vastly overrate our players compared to the Swiss or Israel or rather underrate the opposition. We've stood still whilst others have moved forward - a limited player who can pass will always beat a player who's all bluster and couldn't pass the salt. That's our problem - and would be who ever the manager is.

btw What about Ben-Haim at Bolton too?

My favourite quote from the program was:
"If it was a big hungry person, Pat Dolan"

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Originally Posted by gspain

4) Switzerland home - great passion and guts

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Good post but tbh I didn't see much passion and guts myself. I'd class that as high tempo play and getting stuck in but I thought we were sadly lacking in the one department we could always rely upon in the past.

We all know know we were never great technically but we could always rely on our guts and committment. That's why I think we're up sh!ts creek now:( :mad:

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Originally Posted by drinkfeckarse

Good post but tbh I didn't see much passion and guts myself. I'd class that as high tempo play and getting stuck in but I thought we were sadly lacking in the one department we could always rely upon in the past.

We all know know we were never great technically but we could always rely on our guts and committment. That's why I think we're up sh!ts creek now:( :mad:

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maybe I exaggerated the passion a little but it was sadly lacking in Cyprus (couple of obvious exceptions). However I wouldn't question the desire of the players v Switzerland. Glad to see that back but I think it was poor play and substitutions rather than lack of passion that cost us on Wednesday.

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Originally Posted by gspain

I don't know much of the Israeli league but their clubs are not making an impact at the highest level of club football nor are their players.

In fairness swiss football is better at the moment with FC Thun making an imapct in the champions league however I stand over my original comment that we have better players than Switzerland and Israel.

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Didn't the Israelis have a team in the Chamions League Group Stages this year? They drew 1-1 at home to Juve. I watched it to try and get a feel for how good Israeli football was, but a lot of the team was African! Bloody boring match I can tell you.

But yes, Swiss football is much better. I watched their U21s on Tuesday too and they're all big and techically good. The Swiss won the European U21s in the not too distant past.

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Originally Posted by gspain

I think Israel deserve huge credit for what they've done and are justified in feeling unlucky in not qualifying for at least the playoffs.

However I think we have far better players - Duff in playing at Chelsea one of the favourites for the champions league. Keane has been one of Europe's top players for 13 years at Manchester United and probably their best player in the period. Given is one of the top keepers in the EPL - 2nd best IMO.

Benayoun plays for West Ham (just promoted) having been signed from Racing Santander. In fairness he is probably too good for them but nobody else tried to sign him. I don't know much of the Israeli league but their clubs are not making an impact at the highest level of club football nor are their players.

In fairness swiss football is better at the moment with FC Thun making an imapct in the champions league however I stand over my original comment that we have better players than Switzerland and Israel.

However we clearly don't have a better team than either of them. This is down to the manager. It worked in reverse in the late 80's and 90's when the tema was better than the players individually.

I was concerned at the end of the Euro2004 campaign that we were not up for the 2 biggest games in the group - Russia home and Switzerland away. Results can be excused but performances less so. Kerr got mit right last year in Paris and Basle was a case of the result justifying the means.

This year even allowing for the defeat to France (which is excusable) we had 3 shocking performances and an average one on wednesday.

1) Israel away - they were there for the taking but we failed to press home the advantage - stupid tactic of sitting on a 1-0 lead

2) Israel home - 2 up at home playing well - why change tactics and sit on a 2-0 lead?

3) Cyprus away - great first 5 minutes then sat on a 1-0 lead and escaped thanks to extreme good luck and great goalkeeping.

4) Switzerland home - great passion and guts but no cutting edge and poor substitiutons. The Swiss made all the decent chances and could well regret not going for the goal that would have sent them to Germany.

We have finished 3rd and 4th in our last 2 qualifying campaigns - Charlton and McCarthy's worst finish was 2nd.

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My point being that we don't know how good the Israel lads will be - it's like us 8 years ago, we developed an average team into a good side,
I understand that the Israeli FA invested in a big academy type thing ten years ago and it now seems to be reaping rewards, maybe they don't have to play in the Prem to be good players? Maybe their domestic lg is good enough and well paid enough not to leave. I think Benayoun has played better than Duff this season, who cares what team they are in.

I agree with all the other points.

When teams like Everton & Bolton qualify for Europe from the EPL you get an idea of the quality of football there. I saw a bit of Everton v Dinamo Bucharest 2nd leg & the romanians had better control & pace whereas Everton just relied on brut force.