Disgusted

That performance, if you could call it that, by this Irish team last night was the worst I have ever seen. I am old enough to remember the days when we would send out a team with only a few players plying there trade in England and the rest made up with part timers from the LOI. Those guys always, always gave 100%. They did not have lofty ideas about themselves nor did they ever, ever surrender in a game, like this team does. I don't know what the problem is in the squad, but there definetly is one. Some of you may have noticed Steve Finnan's attitude last night, his body language suggested that he did'nt give a rats ass, totally non commital. But he was'nt the only one. Kerr could have made at least six changes at half time, the commitment to the cause was so poor. We have all seen these players playing for their clubs they ARE good players and a couple of them exceptional, but it did'nt show last night. We have all played soccer, all at different levels, but the common thing was you gave your best each and every time, unless, if you are honest with yourself, there was a problem, either with your team mates or with the coach/manager. Maybe the media know something we don't know, they have hounded Kerr like a fox hunt, they have not openly criticised the FAI nor hunted Delany in the same manner. These players are unhappy with something, the old Irish collective spirit is not there and we all know it and witnessed it last night. I am not optimistic about Wednesday, Switzerland are an ordinary side IMO, but they are a TEAM and that wins games. I hope I'm wrong and that last night was a one off, but there have been too many one offs lately that I fear the worst for us. I hope someone writes a post next Thursday telling me I was totally wrong, but......

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Originally Posted by mountie

That performance, if you could call it that, by this Irish team last night was the worst I have ever seen. I am old enough to remember the days when we would send out a team with only a few players plying there trade in England and the rest made up with part timers from the LOI. Those guys always, always gave 100%. They did not have lofty ideas about themselves nor did they ever, ever surrender in a game, like this team does. I don't know what the problem is in the squad, but there definetly is one. Some of you may have noticed Steve Finnan's attitude last night, his body language suggested that he did'nt give a rats ass, totally non commital. But he was'nt the only one. Kerr could have made at least six changes at half time, the commitment to the cause was so poor. We have all seen these players playing for their clubs they ARE good players and a couple of them exceptional, but it did'nt show last night. We have all played soccer, all at different levels, but the common thing was you gave your best each and every time, unless, if you are honest with yourself, there was a problem, either with your team mates or with the coach/manager. Maybe the media know something we don't know, they have hounded Kerr like a fox hunt, they have not openly criticised the FAI nor hunted Delany in the same manner. These players are unhappy with something, the old Irish collective spirit is not there and we all know it and witnessed it last night. I am not optimistic about Wednesday, Switzerland are an ordinary side IMO, but they are a TEAM and that wins games. I hope I'm wrong and that last night was a one off, but there have been too many one offs lately that I fear the worst for us. I hope someone writes a post next Thursday telling me I was totally wrong, but......

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The time has come for performance related pay in professional football I am sure you will agree by the tone of your post.:ball:

Have to agree, I watched Denmark play against Greece and they hounded them
all over the pitch thats the way we used to play, until we got some fancy notions of being able to play football:(

Agree with both your comments. Time to get back to playing the IRISH way. Interestingly enough Niall Quinns column in Fridays Guardian www.guardian.co.uk deals with exactly this subject.

Quinny is spot on - we are clearly not as good technically as even minnow teams like Cyprus so we have to work our socks off and Kerr's teams don't do that plus they have no 'moral conviction' to use a Giles phrase

http://football.guardian.co.uk/Colum...586683,00.html

From Quinn
"the Irish sides who reached Euro 88, Italia 90 and the rest had no Henry. What we had was spirited, sometimes raw Irish talent and all the video analysis in the world won't give you that. I have been in this sort of siege position before and I know what the players are going through. I want them to win - which not everyone in Ireland can say - but I want them to win playing Irish football, not cautious continental football."

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Ireland are not Holland, and Kerr must realise this

Niall Quinn
Friday October 7, 2005
The Guardian

A more aggressive media, a less aggressive football team. I do not want to simplify a situation that is complex, but in a nutshell this is my assessment of the Republic of Ireland under Brian Kerr. The next six days may decide Kerr's fate, with Ireland going to Cyprus tomorrow and then hosting Switzerland in Dublin next Wednesday. Two victories could be enough to see us at the World Cup or in the play-offs. Anything less and Kerr could find his job in jeopardy.


The manager is discovering the thin lines that separate success and perceived failure. Had the Irish beaten France at Lansdowne Road last month, for instance, Kerr would almost certainly have been awarded and signed a new contract. But try as they did, and they could not have tried harder, Ireland lost to a piece of magic from Thierry Henry.

The response is something I have never witnessed before in Ireland. We are a decade or so into the country's Celtic Tiger phenomenon and maybe that has made us a more demanding nation - it's just a theory. But for whatever reason we now have a media akin to London's.

The intensity that accompanies every cough and spit from Sven-Goran Eriksson or Wayne Rooney is now being seen across the Irish Sea. Where once the sporting press travelled every inch of a qualifying campaign with the team, they have now climbed off well before the last kick to pen their disapproval of Kerr's Ireland. To me that is quite a change in the culture.

In Britain it might not be understood just how Kerr came to succeed Mick McCarthy. Having had exceptional results at youth levels, Kerr was a popular and accessible presence among Irish sports journalists and when the vacancy arose he rode a wave of media support like no other. He was clapped into office. Once there, however, he immediately shut a previously open door and that is a decision now revisiting him.

While things were going well - impressive results in friendlies and Roy Keane reintroduced to the squad - Kerr's increasing distance from the media mattered only to the people involved. Meanwhile, he was setting about imposing his ideas on how the game should be played by the national team and a decent start to a hardish group featuring Israel as well as France and the Swiss left him in a comfortable position, if not a cosy one.

Those ideas of Kerr represent a second cultural shift. I would describe him as a technocrat when it comes to coaching. When I started out playing for Ireland the manager was Jack Charlton and the criticism was that we played caveman football. There was an element of truth to that and I would not apologise for it because I always felt that the sheer urgency of our play somehow contained a degree of our Irishness. We are the country of gaelic football, of hurling; we are not Holland.

The following is an example of where these two shifts have merged, I think. When we played England off the park at Wembley in 1991, every Irish player attended a PFA dinner until 2am, less than 72 hours before kick-off. We were in full view of everyone and we are still lauded by the media for our display at Wembley. Last month, five days before France, a few of the Ireland team went out for a meal and after it a few of the few had a night out. There was a frenzy of media criticism designed to embarrass the manager. I could not believe it.

That was the background in which the players went onto Lansdowne Road. They fought hard, but one thing lost in the scrutiny of Irish defeat was just how hard the French fought. They equalled us, which meant to win we had to be superior technically. We may be all Europeans now, but we have no Henry.

That is not Kerr's fault, but the Irish sides who reached Euro 88, Italia 90 and the rest had no Henry. What we had was spirited, sometimes raw Irish talent and all the video analysis in the world won't give you that. I have been in this sort of siege position before and I know what the players are going through. I want them to win - which not everyone in Ireland can say - but I want them to win playing Irish football, not cautious continental football.

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is that right Niall :p

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Originally Posted by Condex

Have to agree, I watched Denmark play against Greece and they hounded them
all over the pitch thats the way we used to play, until we got some fancy notions of being able to play football:(

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Funny, Denmark are back in with a chance for qualifying because of a tremendous work ethic, anytime the opposition have the ball they harry & hound them untill the other team lose posession or mispass, it reminds me of how Ireland used to play. I think this work ethic undermines the other team greatly & with our talent (yes i said talent) upfront we could take advantage. I REALLY wish we would start palying like this. No more defending deeply, there is no way we will survive Wednesday playing so deep.

I echo the sentiments expressed in this thread. The performance last night was shameful. Seldom have I witnessed such a poor performance from an Irish team and never have I seen the lack of commitment shown last night. There is clearly a problem in the Irish camp. I read today that one of the senior member's of last night's starting line-up told an English jornalist last week that 'Brian's inexperience of the big time has really come through and the atmosphere in the hotel is awful'. It also struck me last week that the Irish players failed to come out and publicly back their manager. Kerr has clearly lost the support of the players.

Last night's game reminded me of a home game we played against Latvia back in 1995. Jack Charlton was coming to the end of his tenure, the players were suffering from a lack of confidence and were no longer responding to Charlton's methods. We struggled to a 2-1 victory that night but it was obvious that Jack's days were numbered. Similarly, last night confirmed to me that Kerr's tenure is coming to an end.

Kerr's behaviour last week was naiive, if not immature. His obtuse stance with the media merely served to illustrate that he is losing his grip. Furtheremore, with the exception of Noel O'Reilly, he seems to have little support within the camp.

Last night's performance was a hopeless one for which the players should take their share of the blame. Last night's starting eleven was comprised of eleven Premiership footballers. Nonetheless, they conspired to make Cyprus look like Brazil. To be honest, it didn't surprise me that Cyprus were technically better. As an Irish fan I've become familiar with such a trend. I recall watching Ireland play Georgia in Lansdowne a couple of years ago, and although we won 2-0, myself and the lad sitting beside me continuously commented on how the Georgians made Ireland look technically inferior. Until we get the proper coaching structures in place and a top notch academy system, we will never produce enough players with sufficient techical ability. It may be that Brian Kerr is one of the few people on this island with the vision to carry out such an audacious plan. However, in the short term, I think Kerr has neglected the traditional Irish footballing qualities in favour of a cautious continental brand of play that is alien to our players. This team has lost the aggressive 'put em under pressure' style that served Irish teams so well for so long. I've always agreed with keeping the ball on the ground and playing good football. However, it is my opinion that this style needs to be merged with a hard-working pressing game. This creates the urgency necessary to unsettle the opposition and get the crowd going. Under Kerr's leadership of this team, we have rarely seen the team press the opposition. This failure means that Lansdowne is no longer the fortress that it once was. Teams such as Albania have come to Dublin and played freely, with little pressure imposed by Ireland. This trend has occurred to such an extent that its difficult to feel confident about beating Switzerland on Wednesday night.

Despite all the criticism that Mick McCarthy received during and after his term of management, he could surely teach Kerr a thing or two. It struck me last week when Kerr was showing his displeasure towards the same media that put him in the job, how differently McCarthy dealed with similar situations. There is no doubt that McCarthy also had a strained relationship with the media. He once referred to them by stating that 'you're either inside the tent ****ing out or you're outside the tent ****ing in'. However, Mick still understood that the media provided the medium through which he and the players should convey information to the fans. In late 1997 when Mick was under considerable pressure from the media, Ireland beat Lithuania 2-1 in Vilnius. After the game Jim Beglin interviewed McCarthy for RTE. A documentary on McCarthy later showed what he said to Beglin prior to the interview: 'Jim, I don't particularly wish to speak to you. I'll speak to the people back home, but its not for your benefit. Sorry mate, but you've made it this way'. Even at that early stage in McCarthy's managerial career he understood the importance of conveying information to the media through the fans, regardless of having an axe to grind. As John Giles pointed out in today's Sunday Independent, all managers are sensitive but Brian Kerr seems to be even more so.

For the sake of domestic football on this island, I've always wanted Brian Kerr to succeed. However, I now feel that he is out of his depth. Since the Israel game in June, the team would appear to be capitulating. There is a lack of both leadership and confidence, as well as team spirit. I hope that a good performance and more importantly, a good result will save Kerr from the bacon slicer that McCarthy used to talk of, but I feel that time has run out on Brian Kerr. It may be that he will only have his own stubborn nature to blame.

An eloquent and compelling deconstruction of the salient issues, JPM. In this instance I'm sad to say that I agree with you.

:ball: PP

Get JamaicanPM a pint! Spot on. To add to what you said Giles resigned in 1979 after a 3-2 away win against Cyprus to make way for Eoin Hand. He was honest enough to recognise that the team wasn't responding any longer to his management. Kerr to me has always been a fantasy bar-stool tactics type appointment. His record is excellent in youth football. He believes passionetely in the Ireland football cause. But when dealing with Highly paid professionals playing basically in a foreign country he was always going to have a problem. These are not the same people he coached at under-age level.

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Originally Posted by TheJamaicanP.M.

Until we get the proper coaching structures in place and a top notch academy system, we will never produce enough players with sufficient techical ability. It may be that Brian Kerr is one of the few people on this island with the vision to carry out such an audacious plan. However, in the short term, I think Kerr has neglected the traditional Irish footballing qualities.

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This is why the situation is so disapointing, I really though Kerr was the man to combine techical ability with guile. We now have neither. Surely the "hard-working pressing game" is the easy part to achieve? It's apparent now that Kerr has problems motivating the team, which is a major problem.

Great post btw, its a good assessment of the situation.

What paper did you see the quote in? "Brian's inexperience of the big time has really come through and the atmosphere in the hotel is awful"

OK, when I posted this thread I asked did the media know more than they are telling, so am I right? JP has put it in a better way than I had expessed it. Are the media baiting Kerr? It is common knowledge the media greeted Kerrs appointment with open arms and the return of an Irish saviour. Are they trying to give him the opportunity to resign under the guise that he has no backing from the FAI, rather than say he has been an absolute failure? Does he have the support of the players? I have already said in my original post that Finnan's attitude was wrong and really thinking about it I thought Duff's injury looked rather lame..sorry.. but he looked like he said to himself jeez I've had enough get me out of here. You know guys when Keane brought things to a head in Saipon the message he was sending got lost somehow, I honestly feel a lot of the players are now thinking of how he felt in Korea. That is, the FAI is ashambles, Kerr is not the GUV'NOR and we are in a mess. We here the cliches "all the players want to play on the world stage" and "playing for your country in the world cup is the ultimate"etc etc etc. But, the reality is that they only care about themselves. The FAI are me feiners and so are the players. Its the poor sods like you and me who sit nervously through every game unable to enjoy it 'cos we can't rely on an Irish team to put in a good performance. Its you and me who want desperately for us to be in every game at the world cup finals. Its you and me who want a team to deliver on its potential and beat a team like Switzerland and beat a team in the play offs so that we can then go to work and hard earn the money to afford another trip to foriegn soil to support guys making $130,000.00 for no real return. I'm Venting right now, but here is a thought what if we had selected the best 14 players from the Eircom league and played them in the 2 games against Israel and the game in Cyprus.........

I thought it was really noticable that when we didn't have the ball we did virtually nothing to get it back. Standing off & holding ground was all we tried to do, but the result was that we easiuly conceded possession and territory.

I thought the second half was better though. An English friend of mine who missed the first half rang me after the game to say he thought it was comfortable enough. At least Kerr deserves some credit for the changes but the overall style of play has to be looked at.

The team I feel has no confidence in kerr whatsoever-they looked sick or something on saturday-it reminded me about what keane said of charlton before that austria game we lost 1-3 at home 10 years ago. they looked legless and petrified.

The image of Kavangh booting the ball high in the air with acres of space around him just summed it up for me. The only other performance worse than that was when we lost 0-2 to Switzerland 2 years ago. Thats progress eh? He has to go.

It's good to see some level heads on here trying to rationally discuss what has gome wrong with this team. I'm not one of them I'm afraid. In watching Ireland for nearly 30 years I have never seen such a lack of pride as I did on Sat. The players (with the exception of Given and Elliott) should be ashamed of themselves. I really felt sorry for the magnificent fans who went to Cyprus and who supported the team as brilliantly as ever. THis team doesn't deserve those fans. I would prefer to see us field 11 players on Wed who were proud to wear the Ireland shirt no matter how good or bad they are instead of the shower who played against Cyprus. I don't care at this stage if we qualify for Germany but I desperately want some pride in our team top be restorded against the Swiss.

As far as I can see (to the end of the group) there is still a game to play for, it has always been my opinion that Kerr has until the end of the group and there is plenty of time after that to write obituaries if we don´t gain a position.
After the Cyprus game Kerr said that there were definitely no instructions given to the players to defend a goal lead, If that is so then there is a serious communication problem, ironic given that the team is sponsored by Eircom. There was caution combined with chaos in the 1st half.
The good old days.
JPM. re memories of Mc Carthy and the media, I could not count how many times I would tune in to a shaky Rte signal on MW at late night to get the news on the team only to hear the precious time being taken up by another Mc Carthy media rant. Also I don´t remember Giles´s skin being so thick when he was (shamefully) booed at Landsdowne rd. even before the game started.
Mountie, you obviously have had a memory wipe out of the totally inept 0-6 to Austria (LOI players et al) marginally less so was the away game. But you are letting your grief get the better of you by arguing that the media have benevolent thoughts and Duff´s lame! injury. :)

Geysir, it is not greif I am suffering from but rather embarrassment. When Ireland lost that game against Austria we were playing against a team full of fulltime proffessionals we were not expected to win and those Irish players gave their all, they were just outclassed. Just as this Irish team are full time proffesssionals they should have outclassed Cyprus, but they did'nt and that is exactly my point. This display was abysmal and embarrassing. You also make my point when you say there is a communication problem, the players are not listening to Kerr and not playing for him. As I said in my original post I would be more than happy to be proven wrong next wednesday night.

ill tell yis boys im disgusted...got a horrid drenching down the bottoms while i was loading up a few beasts into my ifor williams. to cap it all off (speaking of caps, i cud have done with and aul hat on me) didnt she topple over, my iforwilliams that is, as i was making me way out of a glaubery gap. jaysus i didnt realise land was gone horrid soft again...a sure sign of the winter setting in. boy am i glad to have the turf in the shed- there good black sausage ones the year- now some might say might say they are dry but not fully seasoned but they'll burn all the same.....now where was i...oh aye the trailor...well didnt the beasts break and talk about the trouble we had trying to round them all up again...the crush and a good sally rod on the butt of the nose sorted a few of them out. Got them into a sweet bit of grass down at hagans cross, mouthfulls of grass for them and boy jaysus they are as happy as larry...and ya know what? larry is a pretty happy kinda guy!! that'll put a bit of condition on them- as can be said for a few young ones down my parts! Speaking of condition, whats all this talk about the current condition of the Irish squad? well holy god tis a joke...i had a beast last winter with a sore hoof that had better coordination than young gearoid doherty. and trying to take sheamin given out of it today in malahide he'd remind ya of a bull fighting over a heffer thats mad a bulling. Topping young fella is sheamin...he'll show his value come wednesday- hed be worth some shillings in clougher mart if he was some class of an animal. Ill leave it at that til now, cattle to dose...
The Hen will be back with plenty more to say.

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Originally Posted by The Green Hen

ill tell yis boys im disgusted...got a horrid drenching down the bottoms while i was loading up a few beasts into my ifor williams. to cap it all off (speaking of caps, i cud have done with and aul hat on me) didnt she topple over, my iforwilliams that is, as i was making me way out of a glaubery gap. jaysus i didnt realise land was gone horrid soft again...a sure sign of the winter setting in. boy am i glad to have the turf in the shed- there good black sausage ones the year- now some might say might say they are dry but not fully seasoned but they'll burn all the same.....now where was i...oh aye the trailor...well didnt the beasts break and talk about the trouble we had trying to round them all up again...the crush and a good sally rod on the butt of the nose sorted a few of them out. Got them into a sweet bit of grass down at hagans cross, mouthfulls of grass for them and boy jaysus they are as happy as larry...and ya know what? larry is a pretty happy kinda guy!! that'll put a bit of condition on them- as can be said for a few young ones down my parts! Speaking of condition, whats all this talk about the current condition of the Irish squad? well holy god tis a joke...i had a beast last winter with a sore hoof that had better coordination than young gearoid doherty. and trying to take sheamin given out of it today in malahide he'd remind ya of a bull fighting over a heffer thats mad a bulling. Topping young fella is sheamin...he'll show his value come wednesday- hed be worth some shillings in clougher mart if he was some class of an animal. Ill leave it at that til now, cattle to dose...
The Hen will be back with plenty more to say.

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SPAM!!

WTF is that trailor and all about ???

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Originally Posted by mypost

SPAM!!

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Thats the first time you've made me laugh!!!!;)

Hey hen, go back to the farm until you have learned to speak english

Hen, if I were you I'd ask for a refund from the Bundoran Writer's Workshop - it's not working.

Just a thought. I know the performance on Saturday was dreadful, but to all those calling it the worst performance in living memory, etc,etc, anyone remember Liechtenstein away in 1995 ?. Nil all against a team of part timers who were a long way off the standard of Cyprus. When all is said and done at least we did manage (somehow) to take the 3 points on Saturday. I wouldn't be overly optimistic about Wednesday, I feel this game has draw written all over it. I've always backed Brian Kerr, naturally enough as a Pats fan I feel he's a top manager, but it does seem that the players have stopped playing for him. In my view they have to take a lot of responsibility for the situation. They get off way too lightly, too many people seem to take the Dunphy view, nothing is ever the fault of players, it's always down to the manager. However when we do well it's the players who get the credit. Another point in Brians defence, he made changes at half time on Saturday that improved things. Does he get credit ? No. According to Dunphy the 2nd half wasn't as bad because the Cypriots ran out of steam. People see what they want to see in a game. It's like the infamous substitution of Kavanagh for Keane at home to Israel. Not one of the pundits argued at half time that the substitution cost us the 2 goal lead(and I would still argue that it didn't), however in hindsight it's become the accepted wisdom that it was a bad move, negative change, and it cost us the game. Like I said, people sometimes see what they want to.

Tony,

A couple of simple question - do you judge a manager by his results? Have we improved as a team under Kerr? Is Kerr getting the best out of his players.

In my view - Yes, No and most definitely No!

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Originally Posted by mountie

Geysir, it is not greif I am suffering from but rather embarrassment. When Ireland lost that game against Austria we were playing against a team full of fulltime proffessionals we were not expected to win and those Irish players gave their all, they were just outclassed. Just as this Irish team are full time proffesssionals they should have outclassed Cyprus, but they did'nt and that is exactly my point. This display was abysmal and embarrassing. You also make my point when you say there is a communication problem, the players are not listening to Kerr and not playing for him. As I said in my original post I would be more than happy to be proven wrong next wednesday night.

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That's a fair enough point. My own view was that we have always had a mix of performances in our repertoire from the dreadful to some good ones in whatever group qual. campaign we have been in. But I agree with you that this performance was inexplicably different even if it was a much better Cypriot team than we had met before.

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Originally Posted by geysir

....it was a much better Cypriot team than we had met before.

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We all accept that the gap between the good and the poor teams has closed over the last few years and sure Cyprus have some decent playes. However, any team will look good when their opponents stand around ball watching, as we did on Saturday.

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Originally Posted by Stormin Normin

Tony,

A couple of simple question - do you judge a manager by his results? Have we improved as a team under Kerr? Is Kerr getting the best out of his players.

In my view - Yes, No and most definitely No!

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Well Stormin, since we're being simplistic, Saturdays result was 3 points, Brian Kerr has had 2 competitive defeats in his time in charge, and we're still in contention in the group. OK, we could have done better, I'm not disputing that, but they're not the worst results in the world. We have at times looked an excellent side under Kerr (Paris being probably the prime example). As to getting the best out of the players, at the moment we are in a bad run of form, it happens to all teams and all managers. The pressure put on the manager and the team by the media storm last week can't have helped things, and it seemed to be prompted in large part by the media sulking because Kerr wouldn't talk to them, so they lashed out, and to hell with the consequences.

Thats exactly it TonyD. The team has stopped playing for him. It will be interesting to see how they react tomorrow. it may be that they will want to beat the swiss who must be giving them a pain in the arse for years. however they might not want to do it for BK and they may be mentally between two stools. I fear this we happen please please god let us beat the fuppers

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Originally Posted by onenilgameover

Thats exactly it TonyD. The team has stopped playing for him. It will be interesting to see how they react tomorrow. it may be that they will want to beat the swiss who must be giving them a pain in the arse for years. however they might not want to do it for BK and they may be mentally between two stools. I fear this we happen please please god let us beat the fuppers

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I don't subscribe to this view that somehow the team have stopped playing for Kerr. I thought the first 70 minutes of the match at home to France was one of our best performances for a long while. We definitley deserved a draw from that game. What has happened in the intervening 3 or 4 weeks to make the team stop playing for the manager?.
The manager (any manager) has to take a share of the blame when his team plays badly but IMO the dismal performance on Saturday night was down to the players. The team that Kerr played was not defensively set out and I am sure he didn't give the players the instructions to keep hoofing long balls up the field. The players performed badly on the night and worst of all they showed no self belief.

Tomorrow is a chance for them to rectify that and show us it was a once off. No one will be more pleased than me if they do so.