Cork City boos - what's going on?

I mentioned it in the weekend matches thread, just wondering what is going on with Cork City.
Whatever about Clancy's departure, and i know we played them off the pitch on Friday, but Nash and Myler are just in the door, weird to get booing so soon.

If it's dissatisfaction with Usher, it seems like he's backing Nash with coaching resources- including McNulty (presumably a fan favourite) coming back on the scene. Given injuries to Maguire, keating and others, it does seem very soon to have the knives out. Is it ticket prices? People expecting that they should be challenging for Europe?

Dan McDonnell has an excellent article today in the Sunday Independent about local frustrations:

https://archive.ph/ae8kb

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Originally Posted by Bohtastic

I mentioned it in the weekend matches thread, just wondering what is going on with Cork City.
Whatever about Clancy's departure, and i know we played them off the pitch on Friday, but Nash and Myler are just in the door, weird to get booing so soon.

If it's dissatisfaction with Usher, it seems like he's backing Nash with coaching resources- including McNulty (presumably a fan favourite) coming back on the scene. Given injuries to Maguire, keating and others, it does seem very soon to have the knives out. Is it ticket prices? People expecting that they should be challenging for Europe?

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I think that a lot of the ex Foras people are unhappy since he promised funding and it isn't as much as they had hopped. Wage inflation in the league and clubs outside Dublin seem most affected by it. Also the housing crisis had lead to players from Dublin being very reluctant to leave Leinster Region.

The ticket prices are an issue and for some games they are more expensive than Munster Rugby. A family of 4 could go to Munster Rugby for €40.

The experience for fans now is very miserable. High prices and another looming relegation. Usher has gambled on a unproven coach. Managing talented youth players in empty stadiums is radically different from managing limited players in full stadiums.

Usher needs to wake up and smell the coffee, E25 is just far too expensive for watch a LOI game, end of.

Some championship clubs in Eng, and that div is ranked top 10 in Europe move to 'twenty is plenty' (stg granted) end of season and for promotion games, this is just madness at E25.

Heard Bohs took 500+ also, so that's another angle on their crowds, but again very unfair charging that to away fans who would have spent easily E60 on travel and food / drinks before paying for the ticket.

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Originally Posted by oriel

Usher needs to wake up and smell the coffee, E25 is just far too expensive for watch a LOI game, end of.

Some championship clubs in Eng, and that div is ranked top 10 in Europe move to 'twenty is plenty' (stg granted) end of season and for promotion games, this is just madness at E25.

Heard Bohs took 500+ also, so that's another angle on their crowds, but again very unfair charging that to away fans who would have spent easily E60 on travel and food / drinks before paying for the ticket.

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Pretty sure 20 is plenty is for away fan tickets. The idea being its expensive traveling to away games as you point out. So home fan tickets could still be above 20 even if a club has signed up to this.

https://thefsa.org.uk/petition/twent...cket-petition/

Now maybe it has evolved since then but I have only ever heard it referred to for away fans.

On Cork and Usher. I think Usher is right to want to do things a bit differently than how Cork have done them in the past, sure theres been more clubs in Cork City than in Rory Mc's golf bag!. You cant keep doing the same things and expecting different results. However I dont think penalising non ST fans is the way to go. Surely spending time and money on community outreach in schools, local junior clubs etc would have been money better spent and would at least give some protection against a loss of crowds in what was always going to be a difficult season.

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Originally Posted by Another Bohemia

Pretty sure 20 is plenty is for away fan tickets. The idea being its expensive traveling to away games as you point out. So home fan tickets could still be above 20 even if a club has signed up to this.

https://thefsa.org.uk/petition/twent...cket-petition/

Now maybe it has evolved since then but I have only ever heard it referred to for away fans.

On Cork and Usher. I think Usher is right to want to do things a bit differently than how Cork have done them in the past, sure theres been more clubs in Cork City than in Rory Mc's golf bag!. You cant keep doing the same things and expecting different results. However I dont think penalising non ST fans is the way to go. Surely spending time and money on community outreach in schools, local junior clubs etc would have been money better spent and would at least give some protection against a loss of crowds in what was always going to be a difficult season.

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Not only has Mr Usher been increasing prices at his own club it has been reported in podcasts that he has been lobbying for others to do the same.

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Originally Posted by timothydec77

Not only has Mr Usher been increasing prices at his own club it has been reported in podcasts that he has been lobbying for others to do the same.

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So far all hes done is show that a price increase does more to drive fans away. Like I said I think its right to try to do things differently at Cork but this isnt going to work for him

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Originally Posted by Another Bohemia

So far all hes done is show that a price increase does more to drive fans away. Like I said I think its right to try to do things differently at Cork but this isnt going to work for him

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If thats the cost of going to a game in Turners Cross how much is it to buy a match program? DU needs to smell the coffee..

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

If thats the cost of going to a game in Turners Cross how much is it to buy a match program? DU needs to smell the coffee..

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Even if the price of a program has stayed the same I'd say they're selling fewer than ever and not because of the fall in attendance! People feel like they are getting gouged on everything lately so they probably have a fixed budget for entertainment. The 5 quid extra to get to a game probably means they are more likely to bring in their own snacks/drinks where possible and shy away from any discretionary purchases like programs.

I wonder how the merch and jersey sales are going too? Interesting model and a departure from the usual O'Neills offering. The gear looks nice (on tv). Is the quality decent. There may well be a good reason though why other clubs haven't gone down this route.

It also seems strange that there's no board, just him, and he gets advice from people as he needs it.

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Originally Posted by oriel

Usher needs to wake up and smell the coffee, E25 is just far too expensive for watch a LOI game, end of.

Some championship clubs in Eng, and that div is ranked top 10 in Europe move to 'twenty is plenty' (stg granted) end of season and for promotion games, this is just madness at E25.

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After successive seasons post-Covid, when the NIFL saw increased crowds on a par with those of the LOI (percentage-wise), 2024/25 actually saw a small decrease of c.4%.

Seems to be three explanations - 1. Linfield running away with the title from not long after Xmas; 2. Larne's league crowds esp falling away, due possibly to so many extra European games (with the "homes" away from Inver), with these causing league games to be rescheduled late from their much-preferred Friday nights; and 3. League ticket price increases.

And many fans (all clubs, obv) cite this last as being the biggest factor, since it causes them to pick-and-choose which of their own teams games they attend and stop attending other games where they're a neutral. (Some also mention attending lower level games which are much cheaper, instead). Anyhow:

"The Northern Ireland Football League has confirmed that admission prices for Sports Direct Premiership games [for Season 24/25] will be increased by £2.
Adult Irish League fans can now expect to be charged £15 [= €17.50] entry into League fixtures, while seniors and children can be charged up to £10."
https://archive.ph/yRoXo#selection-3400.1-3440.0

This is meant to be a price cap, though every club (I think) raised prices to these levels, for Adult, pay on-the-day at least.

Now £15 is still a fair bit short of what Cork are charging, but I wonder whether Cork and NIFL have just reached their respective price resistance levels. Certainly there is less disposable income knocking around in NI than in ROI, while the LOI standard is higher, and all f-t. Also, while the admission price may not seem that high in absolute terms, it is part of a drip- drip rise which has seen admission prices virtually double in a decade or so. For instance, for the previous season, 2023/24, the price was increased from £12 to £13 (£8 to £9 for concessions).

(Incidentally, after 20% VAT is deducted, NIFL clubs are only retaining £12 = €14, while clubs routinely offer good discouts for ST's and Concessions, esp kids)

I don't think you should underestimate Friday's performance. The supporters had been tolerant to a point because the players were at least putting a shift in, and many of the losses were due to late concessions.

Friday though, was abysmal. Only Troost can say he played well and a good few of them looked like they were still feeling the midseason break poolside cocktails.

Usher has over promised and underdelivered both on and off the pitch. He made big promises about improving the matchday experience that he hasn't come close to matching, simple things like the state of the toilets which is ironic given his background!

His biggest mistake IMO is ignoring Foras and not giving them a board position to advise him on the mood of the supporters. He's from Kildare, has no connection to Cork, and knows nothing about the fanbase.

Individual tickets at that rate you could probably tolerate just about. Its when you add family that the cost becomes nuts. Adult and 2 or 3 kds, food etc and its a now and again night out. Family concessions is the way to go to offset the individual higher priced ticket. Not wanting to promote alcohol consumption buuuttt clubs with bars, if they doubled up as a voucher for so much off a pint, or off merchandise, free lotto with one bought etc. There has to be some way of taking the edge off an expensive ticket or adding to matchday income with a lesser priced ticket, incentivising €5 additional spend eg? Cant be that hard surely. With modern tills Id reintroduce dual pricings in Oriel for various memberships/season tickets, its a swipe of a membership card and people feel they are getting something when in reality they are spending more.

When Foras were in talks to sell up, surely a seat on the board should have been part of the sale?? Itd hardly have been a deal breaker and if it was then it should have raised a red flag.

The fact is Cork City are struggling at the foot of the table. Obviously home average attendances will be down. But an average of 3,000+ plus at this time is still better than some clubs, Derry, Drogheda, Galway, Waterford & Sligo!

If Cork under Nash can steady the ship and start getting some results and form as recent games have shown, you just have to look at the recent games to see that the team is slowly starting to play to the managers format.
If the team begin to move away from the relegation positions you will see a rise in the the home attendance figures.

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Originally Posted by nr637

But an average of 3,000+ plus at this time is still better than some clubs, Derry, Drogheda, Galway, Waterford & Sligo!

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An average of 3k+ is more than those other teams, but hardly better, when you consider the size of Cork, both city and region, versus those other places.

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Originally Posted by nr637

If the team begin to move away from the relegation positions you will see a rise in the the home attendance figures.

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And that applies to every club. The point being that CCFC's core support i.e. those who will go regardless of results, is arguably lower than might be expected when playing in a one-club city of that size.

P.S. Not having a pop at them, club or city, just intrigued in a nerdy, statto sort-of-a-way.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

An average of 3k+ is more than those other teams, but hardly better, when you consider the size of Cork, both city and region, versus those other places.

And that applies to every club. The point being that CCFC's core support i.e. those who will go regardless of results, is arguably lower than might be expected when playing in a one-club city of that size.

P.S. Not having a pop at them, club or city, just intrigued in a nerdy, statto sort-of-a-way.

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Cork City and Cork clubs in general have had a very uneven record when it comes to attendances over the years. I don't agree with the safe argument of 'hardly better, when you consider the size of Cork, both city and region, versus those other places'.
The emergence of the current Cork City set-up, and their rivalry with Dundalk that defined the 2010's, began with a title decider in Oriel Park. This captured the imagination of the wider Cork public, and more and more people went to watch the unfolding story up close. Cork City reached the FAI Cup final the following year and experienced defeat, before winning the trophy in 2016. This sustained rivalry went on for five seasons, with the two clubs meeting in the Aviva Stadium four times and two 'title-deciding' games. Cork City topped the attendance charts during this period, with the club recording the best attendances

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Originally Posted by nr637

Cork City and Cork clubs in general have had a very uneven record when it comes to attendances over the years. I don't agree with the safe argument of 'hardly better, when you consider the size of Cork, both city and region, versus those other places'.
The emergence of the current Cork City set-up, and their rivalry with Dundalk that defined the 2010's, began with a title decider in Oriel Park. This captured the imagination of the wider Cork public, and more and more people went to watch the unfolding story up close. Cork City reached the FAI Cup final the following year and experienced defeat, before winning the trophy in 2016. This sustained rivalry went on for five seasons, with the two clubs meeting in the Aviva Stadium four times and two 'title-deciding' games. Cork City topped the attendance charts during this period, with the club recording the best attendances

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So your point is that large Cork City attendances are based on success only
That may be true, but given the catchment area, it isa bit of a shocker that the core support is down to 2,500-2,700 or so
The fact that TX is a popular venue for way fans , brings the average up , but 25 Euro will dissuade a lot of those away punters.
I am old enough to remember C Celtic and Hibs derby games getting 15 k.
50% of that on a regular basis is what Usher needs to be aiming for.A drop to 30 euro might help that.

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Originally Posted by nr637

Cork City and Cork clubs in general have had a very uneven record when it comes to attendances over the years. I don't agree with the safe argument of 'hardly better, when you consider the size of Cork, both city and region, versus those other places'.

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Cork (city) has a population of 224k in a county of 584k, with only Cobh for local competition. As of end-April their average attendance was 4.3k
Contrast that with Sligo Rovers, who are attracting 3.4k crowds in a town of 20k and a county of 70k. And all this in a season where Sligo's results have been little better than Cork's.

Obviously they are at opposite ends of the spectrum and these figures are at much a reflection of Sligo's outstanding crowds as they are of Cork's low crowds. But I still fail to see how one may disagree with the 'safe argument' [bold] of my point, when the figures are so stark.

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Originally Posted by nr637

The emergence of the current Cork City set-up, and their rivalry with Dundalk that defined the 2010's, began with a title decider in Oriel Park. This captured the imagination of the wider Cork public, and more and more people went to watch the unfolding story up close. Cork City reached the FAI Cup final the following year and experienced defeat, before winning the trophy in 2016. This sustained rivalry went on for five seasons, with the two clubs meeting in the Aviva Stadium four times and two 'title-deciding' games. Cork City topped the attendance charts during this period, with the club recording the best attendances

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Isn't all that supportive of the point that Cork's diehard support is actually quite low, with their "bandwagon" support being (potentially) very high?

As I say, I'm not having a pop, merely curious as to why this should be.

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Originally Posted by Dalymountrower

So your point is that large Cork City attendances are based on success only
That may be true, but given the catchment area, it isa bit of a shocker that the core support is down to 2,500-2,700 or so
The fact that TX is a popular venue for way fans , brings the average up , but 25 Euro will dissuade a lot of those away punters.
I am old enough to remember C Celtic and Hibs derby games getting 15 k.
50% of that on a regular basis is what Usher needs to be aiming for.A drop to 30 euro might help that.

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A drop to 20 Euro, is what I meant.
Usher's tariffs on fans are not at the 30 euro lel ..yet!

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Cork (city) has a population of 224k in a county of 584k, with only Cobh for local competition. As of end-April their average attendance was 4.3k
Contrast that with Sligo Rovers, who are attracting 3.4k crowds in a town of 20k and a county of 70k. And all this in a season where Sligo's results have been little better than Cork's.

Obviously they are at opposite ends of the spectrum and these figures are at much a reflection of Sligo's outstanding crowds as they are of Cork's low crowds. But I still fail to see how one may disagree with the 'safe argument' [bold] of my point, when the figures are so stark.

Isn't all that supportive of the point that Cork's diehard support is actually quite low, with their "bandwagon" support being (potentially) very high?

As I say, I'm not having a pop, merely curious as to why this should be.

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Different sporting profile areas though. Sligo do great work and I'm not taking away from that at all, but they've less competition. City are up against Cork GAA and occasionally Munster Rugby - the latter being a 5 minute walk down the road from the Cross.

Connaught play nowhere near Sligo, Sligo has no hurling team, and their Gaelic Football team are a division three level side that hasn't competed seriously for any trophy of note for decades.

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Originally Posted by Crosshead

Different sporting profile areas though. Sligo do great work and I'm not taking away from that at all, but they've less competition. City are up against Cork GAA and occasionally Munster Rugby - the latter being a 5 minute walk down the road from the Cross.

Connaught play nowhere near Sligo, Sligo has no hurling team, and their Gaelic Football team are a division three level side that hasn't competed seriously for any trophy of note for decades.

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Hmmm. When you consider Cork (city and county) has around 10 x times the catchment, I still don't buy the "competition" argument as completely explaining the disparity.

Or do GAA and Rugby crowds also rise and fall depending on on-field success?

And in any case, don't many sports fans support more than one code?

(Not having a pop at you, Crosshead, or other regular City fans, merely curious)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Hmmm. When you consider Cork (city and county) has around 10 x times the catchment, I still don't buy the "competition" argument as completely explaining the disparity.

Or do GAA and Rugby crowds also rise and fall depending on on-field success?

And in any case, don't many sports fans support more than one code?

(Not having a pop at you, Crosshead, or other regular City fans, merely curious)

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Perhaps you can ask in the relative active Cork AUL thread on the forum or factor in the MSL? MSL is a de facto regionalised third tier of football in Ireland and all top MSL clubs are based in and around the city of Cork (would imagine the standard is similar to the Championship in the north). Cork City is the only LOI club in the city, but it would be incorrect to assume the club has a monopoly on the footballing public in the city. Galway, Sligo, Waterford doesn’t have a MSL- standard equivalent.

The Cork AUL Thread facinates me.
The LOI is becoming more mainstream these days but i used to regard myself as something of a niche loving lunatic who other people semi pitied.............and then i discovered there were people keeping a forum going about the MSL and started to feel like i was mainstream :)

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Originally Posted by Crosshead

I don't think you should underestimate Friday's performance. The supporters had been tolerant to a point because the players were at least putting a shift in, and many of the losses were due to late concessions.

Friday though, was abysmal. Only Troost can say he played well and a good few of them looked like they were still feeling the midseason break poolside cocktails.

Usher has over promised and underdelivered both on and off the pitch. He made big promises about improving the matchday experience that he hasn't come close to matching, simple things like the state of the toilets which is ironic given his background!

His biggest mistake IMO is ignoring Foras and not giving them a board position to advise him on the mood of the supporters. He's from Kildare, has no connection to Cork, and knows nothing about the fanbase.

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... and yet the fanbase voted him in.

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Originally Posted by redobit

... and yet the fanbase voted him in.

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100% Reaping what we've sown.

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Originally Posted by redobit

... and yet the fanbase voted him in.

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To be fair only FORAS members voted him in, which is a few hundred people at most. It was also really pushed through by the board at the time, as was the previous attempt to sell to Trevor Hemmings which really put the club in a bad situation when he didn't follow through. I was very disapointed with how the argument was framed by the board at the time of that first vote. It didn't feel like both sides were given the same opportunity to state their case, and they used cub employees to guilt a yes vote. I didn't even bother attending the second vote because it felt like it was only ever going to go one way.

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Originally Posted by El-Pietro

To be fair only FORAS members voted him in, which is a few hundred people at most. It was also really pushed through by the board at the time, as was the previous attempt to sell to Trevor Hemmings which really put the club in a bad situation when he didn't follow through. I was very disapointed with how the argument was framed by the board at the time of that first vote. It didn't feel like both sides were given the same opportunity to state their case, and they used cub employees to guilt a yes vote. I didn't even bother attending the second vote because it felt like it was only ever going to go one way.

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I dont think you can really point the finger at FORAS when any Cork fan was able to join FORAS and have a vote, its sounds like er passing the buck. I know the fanbase is bigger than FORAS but they were the owners at the time and had to make a decision, one that was probably the least worst option considering how the fan model backfired in this case rather than protecting the exstance of the club starting with not overspending on players and budgeting on a wishlist of income streams. Im conscious too that if Dundalk had been fan owned that we too could have sold to an Ainscough. It does bring back in to question things like due diligence and getting things like supporter group's reps on a board which I think helps guage an owners attitude toward a fanbase.

If there was an obvious onesided agenda yup its tough but was there any dissenting voices really? It certainly wasnt general knowledge if there was. Tke the Rovers example where its was known generally that there were issues behind the scenes on concern about ownership and supporters ability to remain in the decision making process, among other stuff.

Crowds at Cork are ok, enough to sustain the club, higher than many or most, its just relative to past peaks and potential, but cutting the cloth and numbers are still good enough to be a PD club. Cork have struggled due to recruitment and not resources.The odd arrangement with the previous manager as an example.

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Originally Posted by Dalymountrower

So your point is that large Cork City attendances are based on success only
That may be true, but given the catchment area, it isa bit of a shocker that the core support is down to 2,500-2,700 or so
The fact that TX is a popular venue for way fans , brings the average up , but 25 Euro will dissuade a lot of those away punters.
I am old enough to remember C Celtic and Hibs derby games getting 15 k.
50% of that on a regular basis is what Usher needs to be aiming for.A drop to 30 euro might help that.

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Well most teams increased attendances over the years in the LOI are based on success, which is a reasonable fact. I think that Usher and the club have a budget based on attendance figures of 3-4,000.
The fact is that the Cork soccer public will return to the TX if there is an improvement in form and results. If the new manager Nash can turn things around you will see this reflected in the home attendances.
There is a following for all sport in Cork, the GAA have an element that follow a winning team as they have only 4/5 games to attend which if they are lucky 2/3 are in the Pairc!
The Rogby have a set following who are tied to their clubs and Munster with a big following from Limerick even when the home games are in Musgrave Park!