2023 Club finances

Moving in to that time of the season where clubs financial statements are being published, in one spot thans to John O'Connor over the years. https://twitter.com/chippie1974?lang=en

So far hightlights are Rovers have €2.4mil accumulated hole in last years finances but its was a reduction on 2022 loses. there are implications greater than just the debt in 2024 as 'director loans' mature but that impact will probably only become clearer in 2025 AGM? Its usually held in Jan of a new year after the season review is complete i think was said here previously.

Derry had about STG£1mil in director donation, similar to 2022. Something more concrete than 4th biggest wage bill with DCFC spending STG£2.1mil on wages. Sligo spent €1.3 which is sizable considering last seasons performance and backs up observations made by Sligo fans preseason that their relatively quiet transfer activity this season was due to 2023 spend and multi year contracts.

Cant wait for Dundalk's accounts, will be interesting in general than just to Dundalk fans on the basis of ownership turmoil and maybe even an indication of a particular fee paid to St Pats.....or not! Again how 2024 will compare subsequently will indicate plenty on BA and his ownership and medium/long term committment.

Comparative EFL League 2 figures are an interesting addition to the thread on X
Stockport County the surprise there heading for a £5mil loss as a club that has previously been put in administration with points deductions and could be heading down that road again. Salford are spending 128% of income on wages and the L2 weekly wage average is £1600 if I have read that correctly. While our average is unlikely to be near that some clubs could well be paying more than that average - Richie may have had a pay increase moving to Rovers.

Derry wage figures are astonishing. Equates to around €48k a week, for a club that averages around 3,000 on the gates.

Those sort of figures just aren't sustainable, long term.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Derry wage figures are astonishing. Equates to around €48k a week, for a club that averages around 3,000 on the gates.

Those sort of figures just aren't sustainable, long term.

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They are if you have a Doherty, Kelleher, Desmond/Wilson to fund the club.

Always a risky strategy having these guys who are happy to pump in say a million a year, there is no doubting their wealth that's fairly obvious, but if they ever get fed up, or move on to another project? I suppose in these particular examples, all 3 are fairly stable in terms of they will continue to invest, maybe.

In our case it would seem Ainscough has a bit of cash, but needs investors to come onboard, then again he too could easily move on, there is no contract in this type of game !

Still, as a fan you will always enjoy the run while the money is there to fund the big wages / general success, I certainly did in our scene 2014-20. That said, a lot forget Dundalk had won 3 in a row before P6 came to town / EL monies poured in post 2016.

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Originally Posted by ger121

They are if you have a Doherty, Kelleher, Desmond/Wilson to fund the club.

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Desmond / Wilson have no plans to put more funds into the club

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Comparative EFL League 2 figures are an interesting addition to the thread on X
Stockport County the surprise there heading for a £5mil loss as a club that has previously been put in administration with points deductions and could be heading down that road again. Salford are spending 128% of income on wages and the L2 weekly wage average is £1600 if I have read that correctly. While our average is unlikely to be near that some clubs could well be paying more than that average - Richie may have had a pay increase moving to Rovers.

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Stockport are an interesting club. After nearly a century of League football, mostly in the 4th tier, they dropped out of the league in 2011 to 5th tier and 2 seasons later down to the 6th tier. The climb back, via 3 promotions will see them back up to Lge One (3rd tier) for next season.

The most recent accounts (2022/23) show they lost £5m, on a turnover of £9m, with ave attendances of 8,790 (9,358 this season). However, they have a benefactor who has put £8m into the club as equity, which indicates that they're stable.

Further, they have impressive plans to redevelop and modernise Edgeley Park from 10,800 capacity to 18,000, with the ultimate aim of becoming an established Championship club:
https://www.stockportcounty.com/stoc...-edgeley-park/

Meanwhile, compare that with the situation at Wrexham, 60 miles away. They've had a very similar climb back up to league status over the same period, including promotion to Lge One for next season. In 2022/23 they had almost exactly the same turnover and losses,while their Hollywood owners have also put £8m into the club. However in their case, this has taken the form of loans at an interest rate of 3.5% over the base rate!

And where it gets really bizarre is that while they, too, are currently enlarging their ground from 10k to 16k, that's not the half of it!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football...s/c4n1wegp847o

Salford City are another interesting case, as you say, but I'm beginning to wonder whether it's not a basket case!

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Stockport are an interesting club. After nearly a century of League football, mostly in the 4th tier, they dropped out of the league in 2011 to 5th tier and 2 seasons later down to the 6th tier. The climb back, via 3 promotions will see them back up to Lge One (3rd tier) for next season.

The most recent accounts (2022/23) show they lost £5m, on a turnover of £9m, with ave attendances of 8,790 (9,358 this season). However, they have a benefactor who has put £8m into the club as equity, which indicates that they're stable.

Further, they have impressive plans to redevelop and modernise Edgeley Park from 10,800 capacity to 18,000, with the ultimate aim of becoming an established Championship club:
https://www.stockportcounty.com/stoc...-edgeley-park/

Meanwhile, compare that with the situation at Wrexham, 60 miles away. They've had a very similar climb back up to league status over the same period, including promotion to Lge One for next season. In 2022/23 they had almost exactly the same turnover and losses,while their Hollywood owners have also put £8m into the club. However in their case, this has taken the form of loans at an interest rate of 3.5% over the base rate!

And where it gets really bizarre is that while they, too, are currently enlarging their ground from 10k to 16k, that's not the half of it!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football...s/c4n1wegp847o

Salford City are another interesting case, as you say, but I'm beginning to wonder whether it's not a basket case!

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Wonder if any of this was part of Jim Gannon's 40 point plan for success!? Probably ahead of its time at Dundalk in the post Anderson era! Salford always seemed to be a FC Manchester type project, working on the back of disillusionment of club ownership in Greater Manchester. Wrexham are making hay when they can imo. Stockport are certainly a club wih potential. There seems to be plent of selling the family silver to get to the money available in the Championship as LoI clubs would chase European qualification. Pity all clubs dont publich accounts.

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Originally Posted by Knocklyonhoop

Desmond / Wilson have no plans to put more funds into the club

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With losses like that on an annual basis, they may have no choice eventually.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Wonder if any of this was part of Jim Gannon's 40 point plan for success!? Probably ahead of its time at Dundalk in the post Anderson era! Salford always seemed to be a FC Manchester type project, working on the back of disillusionment of club ownership in Greater Manchester. Wrexham are making hay when they can imo. Stockport are certainly a club wih potential. There seems to be plent of selling the family silver to get to the money available in the Championship as LoI clubs would chase European qualification. Pity all clubs dont publich accounts.

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Salford is the complete opposite of the FC United model. Salford is essentially a rich(ish) man's plaything. It's just that there are a number of rich(ish) celebrity men involved, and they have a background in football. The club didn't rise from the depths of non-league to League 2 - plus get a lovely new stadium along the way - off their own back. And they're another TV show club as well.

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Originally Posted by ger121

With losses like that on an annual basis, they may have no choice eventually.

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The point is they are not 'bankrolling the club' on an ongoing basis, that myth persists for some reason. Last year's loss cancels out the previous year's profit which shows how crucial it is to win the League, be seeded in CL Q1 and crucially to win that round - which obviously didn't happen last year.

Should that happen again or should we not win the League then a strategic re-think will have to happen but to re-iterate Dermot Desmond and/or Ray Wilson are not bankrolling the club.

They wont bankroll something they dont own yet.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Salford is the complete opposite of the FC United model. Salford is essentially a rich(ish) man's plaything. It's just that there are a number of rich(ish) celebrity men involved, and they have a background in football. The club didn't rise from the depths of non-league to League 2 - plus get a lovely new stadium along the way - off their own back. And they're another TV show club as well.

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Fair enough, support base still seems to me to be rooted in issues among the support base of big clubs in the same city. It may be the play thing of the class of 92 but support comes from among traditional support of the bigger clubs that couldnt be bothered anymore with the big clubs but still get a fix of relative success that is a hard slog for FC United. The origins differ but the picking up of certain supporters may not.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Fair enough, support base still seems to me to be rooted in issues among the support base of big clubs in the same city. It may be the play thing of the class of 92 but support comes from among traditional support of the bigger clubs that couldnt be bothered anymore with the big clubs but still get a fix of relative success that is a hard slog for FC United. The origins differ but the picking up of certain supporters may not.

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Tbh, Stockport, FCUM and Salford are all different - background, fans, owners, potential etc.

EYG has got it right about Salford, though. They were a decent-enough non-league side who the "Class of 92" (and a wealthy Agent) reckoned they could rocket up the EFL. But despite big investment (at that level), they've found that it's not so easy as it looks, and they're apparently losing a packet.

While they too, like Wrexham(?), may have unrealistic ambitions. For example, I've been to their stadium. It's a standard, new(ish) identikit stadium, in a surprisingly leafy/affluent suburb of Greater Manchester - certainly nothing like the image of Salford Docks! That said, at 6k capacity, imo it's perfectly adequate for their present status, even if it's not exactly where they'd like it to be.

However, that didn't stop them from trying to combine with Sale RFC to buy a 12k stadium a couple of years ago, the idea since abandoned:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...witch-25798167

Anyhow, the point for LOI comparisons is that if they get it right, those three clubs have a clear pathway up the pyramid to aim for. The problem there is that unless they can get to the PL (v.unlikely for all three), then it's almost impossible to make money in the Championship, even breaking-even is a huge challenge.

Whereas the LOI equivalent for advancement must be to hope for European football, the problem there being that only 4(?) clubs can achieve it at any one time, with those 4 normally being drawn from the same small group of clubs each year.

One of the best takeovers was Kenny Bruce at Larne, a sh1t€ team playing on a sh1t€ pitch and about 4 days from going out of football completely, when he walked in with a proposal. They took it,. They bought the ground from the council, put in 4g surface, upgraded the main stand, built smaller modern stands behind each goal and upgraded other club facilities while pulling together a squad which are now full time and have just won the NIPL twice. I don't know how the finances are but the investment is very visible both on and off the pitch.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Tbh, Stockport, FCUM and Salford are all different - background, fans, owners, potential etc.

EYG has got it right about Salford, though. They were a decent-enough non-league side who the "Class of 92" (and a wealthy Agent) reckoned they could rocket up the EFL. But despite big investment (at that level), they've found that it's not so easy as it looks, and they're apparently losing a packet.

While they too, like Wrexham(?), may have unrealistic ambitions. For example, I've been to their stadium. It's a standard, new(ish) identikit stadium, in a surprisingly leafy/affluent suburb of Greater Manchester - certainly nothing like the image of Salford Docks! That said, at 6k capacity, imo it's perfectly adequate for their present status, even if it's not exactly where they'd like it to be.

However, that didn't stop them from trying to combine with Sale RFC to buy a 12k stadium a couple of years ago, the idea since abandoned:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...witch-25798167

Anyhow, the point for LOI comparisons is that if they get it right, those three clubs have a clear pathway up the pyramid to aim for. The problem there is that unless they can get to the PL (v.unlikely for all three), then it's almost impossible to make money in the Championship, even breaking-even is a huge challenge.

Whereas the LOI equivalent for advancement must be to hope for European football, the problem there being that only 4(?) clubs can achieve it at any one time, with those 4 normally being drawn from the same small group of clubs each year.

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I actually slightly disagree with you. I think Luton have shown lower league teams, when managed correctly, can get to the premier league and Brighton have shown there's a model to grow in that league as well. With talk of salary caps coming into that PL there is going to be even more turmoil imo and while I don't see clubs going bust over it I think some traditionally big clubs (like Man United) will struggle with a salary cap and may find themselves falling down the league table.

There's an article in the Irish Times, shamrock rovers made a loss of 2.4 million despite record attendances.

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Originally Posted by Another Bohemia

I actually slightly disagree with you. I think Luton have shown lower league teams, when managed correctly, can get to the premier league and Brighton have shown there's a model to grow in that league as well. With talk of salary caps coming into that PL there is going to be even more turmoil imo and while I don't see clubs going bust over it I think some traditionally big clubs (like Man United) will struggle with a salary cap and may find themselves falling down the league table.

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Luton, who have been a top flight club in the past, will likely go down again, if not this season then next.
While Brighton's owner has put over £400m into the club to get them where they are. A similar example is Brentford, whose owner has invested c.£100m, but is now looking for further outside investment, since even going into a fourth season in the PL, he knows it's getting ever harder to stay there, not easier. While clubs like Man U/Liverpool will always be a cash machine, even if they got relegated (which, of course, they won't).

Anyhow, to bring this back on topic, I think the point is that LOI finances hardly compare with those of clubs in Leagues One and Two, or even some in the National League, never mind higher up. While lower league teams like Stockport or Wrexham at least have something to aim for higher up the pyramid.

Of course, the LOI has been very impressive in increasing crowds recently, but when even Shams are losing big money, the extra gate receipts alone aren't enough for the league to grow greatly on a sustainable basis. Which is not to say that ROI doesn't have potential for growth, but in order to get up to the level of comparable countries like Denmark, Croatia or (eek!) Scotland, it needs both major investment and a governing body/structure which is fit for purpose.

As regards the former, while individual clubs may benefit from wealthy benefactors (Derry, Shams etc), there aren't nearly enough of those to go round to raise the whole league, never mind expand it beyond the same 18 or 20 clubs etc, meaning that it needs government investment.

And that probably won't happen at least until the latter is addressed (governance, pyramid etc).

All of which is a shame, since with a wealthy/growing population which is keen on football, the potential is clearly there. And before anyone thinks I'm having a pop at the LOI, these idle musings apply pretty much equally to NI/IL, who face similar challenges on a greater or lesser scale.

Oh well, at least we're not Wales!

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Originally Posted by Shinkicker

One of the best takeovers was Kenny Bruce at Larne, a sh1t€ team playing on a sh1t€ pitch and about 4 days from going out of football completely, when he walked in with a proposal. They took it,. They bought the ground from the council, put in 4g surface, upgraded the main stand, built smaller modern stands behind each goal and upgraded other club facilities while pulling together a squad which are now full time and have just won the NIPL twice. I don't know how the finances are but the investment is very visible both on and off the pitch.

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Bruce has worked wonders at Larne, who were never a successful club really - despite being founded as long ago as 1889.

The problem though will be maintaining that recent success whilst also making themselves sustainable. The town only has a population of 18,000 and isn't particularly wealthy. And the club doesn't have the sort of catchment area that somewhere like Sligo or Finn Harps do, as there are 2 other top level IL clubs within just 10-20 miles (Carrick Rangers and Balymena), plus Ballyclare in the 2nd tier just 10 miles away and then all the Belfast clubs 25 miles away. So they exist in a crowded and competitive part of the world for senior football clubs chasing a not particularly large population. Once Bruce goes and the IL continues to improve and professionalise, it's hard to see how they can remain competitive to be honest. Being one of just a small number of pro clubs makes the difference for them now. But that situation won't last.

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Originally Posted by oriel

Always a risky strategy having these guys who are happy to pump in say a million a year, there is no doubting their wealth that's fairly obvious, but if they ever get fed up, or move on to another project? I suppose in these particular examples, all 3 are fairly stable in terms of they will continue to invest, maybe.

In our case it would seem Ainscough has a bit of cash, but needs investors to come onboard, then again he too could easily move on, there is no contract in this type of game !

Still, as a fan you will always enjoy the run while the money is there to fund the big wages / general success, I certainly did in our scene 2014-20. That said, a lot forget Dundalk had won 3 in a row before P6 came to town / EL monies poured in post 2016.

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Whilst I do agree it’s a risky strategy. Can’t see the lad that owns Derry getting bored anytime soon. He’s been bridging the gap for a long time and his personal health has increased tenfold in recent years. You’d assume the club wouldn’t have such high expenditure without his say either. When he sold his company in recent years for massive money he made a big song and dance about how beneficial it’ll be for the club also. Even if he was to decide to cut the funding, he seems like the type that would secure the clubs future and not leave them up s**t creek

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Originally Posted by sulywaterfordfc

Whilst I do agree it’s a risky strategy. Can’t see the lad that owns Derry getting bored anytime soon. He’s been bridging the gap for a long time and his personal health has increased tenfold in recent years. You’d assume the club wouldn’t have such high expenditure without his say either. When he sold his company in recent years for massive money he made a big song and dance about how beneficial it’ll be for the club also. Even if he was to decide to cut the funding, he seems like the type that would secure the clubs future and not leave them up s**t creek

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Jack Walker did his best but as soon as he popped off his family werent shy about off-loading his beloved club. Ye just never know how ownership things might pan out!

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Bruce has worked wonders at Larne, who were never a successful club really - despite being founded as long ago as 1889.

The problem though will be maintaining that recent success whilst also making themselves sustainable. The town only has a population of 18,000 and isn't particularly wealthy. And the club doesn't have the sort of catchment area that somewhere like Sligo or Finn Harps do, as there are 2 other top level IL clubs within just 10-20 miles (Carrick Rangers and Balymena), plus Ballyclare in the 2nd tier just 10 miles away and then all the Belfast clubs 25 miles away. So they exist in a crowded and competitive part of the world for senior football clubs chasing a not particularly large population. Once Bruce goes and the IL continues to improve and professionalise, it's hard to see how they can remain competitive to be honest. Being one of just a small number of pro clubs makes the difference for them now. But that situation won't last.

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To be devils advocate, who is to say that Larne wont take over the catchement of others with sustained success. People from Ballyclare etc wouldnt become Larne fans especially among younger and newer followers of IL? In the way that we try to talk up potential clubs with a ready made embedded catchment in LoI, there is coversely no reason why old established traditional IL clubs would hold their ground indefinitely against adjacent and more recent success.

Same point on potential generational ownership issuess as above too.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

To be devils advocate, who is to say that Larne wont take over the catchement of others with sustained success. People from Ballyclare etc wouldnt become Larne fans especially among younger and newer followers of IL? In the way that we try to talk up potential clubs with a ready made embedded catchment in LoI, there is coversely no reason why old established traditional IL clubs would hold their ground indefinitely against adjacent and more recent success.

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Like you, I'm not sure about seeing this as a simple matter of competition/catchment etc.

Otoh, Larne have a "problem" in that there are 3 or 4 other senior clubs within a few miles.

Oto, that just reflects that Antrim - and especially South East Antrim - is a real footballing heartland and always has been. Meaning that it can sustain more clubs than you might expect when simply looking at the geography and population etc.

And tbf to Bruce, while he has obv pumped a lot of money into players and coaches etc, he has also spent serious money on infrastructure, facilities and community etc, which should stand to the club even after he has retired/moved on.

The other gain from his involvement is that he has prompted other clubs to up their game, most notably Linfield, who might have gone f-t long before they actually did, but as serial winners formerly didn't feel the need to.

My initial concern about Bruce was that having made his name in the property business, he was only buying into Larne to move the club from Inver Park and take a profit from redeveloping the site. But while he apparently considered moving the club, he concluded that he could do a job on the existing site, and so it has proved.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Like you, I'm not sure about seeing this as a simple matter of competition/catchment etc.

Otoh, Larne have a "problem" in that there are 3 or 4 other senior clubs within a few miles.

Oto, that just reflects that Antrim - and especially South East Antrim - is a real footballing heartland and always has been. Meaning that it can sustain more clubs than you might expect when simply looking at the geography and population etc.

And tbf to Bruce, while he has obv pumped a lot of money into players and coaches etc, he has also spent serious money on infrastructure, facilities and community etc, which should stand to the club even after he has retired/moved on.

The other gain from his involvement is that he has prompted other clubs to up their game, most notably Linfield, who might have gone f-t long before they actually did, but as serial winners formerly didn't feel the need to.

My initial concern about Bruce was that having made his name in the property business, he was only buying into Larne to move the club from Inver Park and take a profit from redeveloping the site. But while he apparently considered moving the club, he concluded that he could do a job on the existing site, and so it has proved.

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The improvements in the infrastructure and team are fantastic. He has worked wonders. If any LOI clubs who have been taken over were to see the infrastructureand team improvements similar to larne they would come in droves to support their club. Had the pleasure of meeting him several times in the club loungee and he said he's in it for the long haul.

He is a true diehard fan from before he made his money. Has spoken about standing on the terrace with a few hundred people and wishing he or some other fan had the money to do something. He has that sentimental attachment that fans dream of in owners or of becoming owners themselves with the money to make a difference, a no strings attached - land swaps, ground sales to claw back 'investment'. Even as a fan EG mentiones suspicion that Bruce was a developer in for a land grab. If it were Dundalk with such a fan owner there would be fan protests cause of the american connection from a trip to Disneyland once!

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Even as a fan EG mentiones suspicion that Bruce was a developer in for a land grab.

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In my own defence, before Bruce ever arrived on the scene, the club itself, in dire financial straits, was looking to move somewhere else after the Council (the then stadium owners) sold Inver:
(From Oct.2008)
"Larne Football Club is to quit Inver Park and is planning to move to a new green-field site, with its current council-owned ground being sold to a supermarket for more than £5million.
The club’s shareholders voted has in favour of the Council’s proposals to sell the land it owns at Inver Park to Tesco for retail development.
The £5.1 million sale of the land to Tesco will mean the complete redevelopment of the Inver Park site which will create a welcoming approach to the town and traffic flow systems which will enhance business opportunities for traders.
Larne Football Club will relocate to a new stadium when Planning Permission has been secured and this move has been made possible by a very generous contribution from Tesco."
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s.../28450618.html

That dragged on for whatever reason, but even when Bruce took over he was open to the idea of moving, too.

But in his defence, his motives were clearly to get the best for Larne FC, eventually deciding that buying the ground and redeveloping it himself was best all round.

Meanwhile, he's taken in outside investment (a minority stake) from the USA which again, I'd normally wonder about, but you have to trust Bruce to handle it wisely:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s...447216947.html

No need for a defence, I believed that Gerry Matthews took ownership of Dundalk just to get his hands on Oriel Park. I'm still not totally convinced that he wasnt at all thnking that he could swap out a cheap brownfield site in an industrial park for prime housing development near the town centre and train station. A look on Google Maps and you can see how big that tranche of land still is between Oriel, Joes Field, Grammar School/Hiney Park, Furrey Glen, CIE land if they could be merged - absolutely perfect for a stadium development and urban sporting quarter between two main roads in to town, one and potentially both with close access to the M1 and eastern corridor rail links. Those same things obviously making it a prime housing development location if land could be rezoned. Im really surprised that a new stadium at that location was never proposed as part of housing development ever. Residents would have objected to both but the lesser of two evils imo would be a new football ground where one already exists but with improved infrastructure in the area eg traffic management, upgraded water supplies, park and recreation amenity on their dorrstep and arguably less traffic every 2nd week on average than cramming high density housing in to the area..

In hindsight Gerry Matthews put significant money in to the club and made improvements to Oriel to a guestimated value of near €2m. It went sour when his own back was to the wall with a global financial collapse and he was scrambling to eek every cent out of his assets which included holding the Oriel Park lease to ransom, basically get the planning levy for the YDC paid by the club rather than by GM for a development he had little need for or benefit to him, reducing his debts - he is also a particularly stubborn man at times and that can make him a bit of a nighmare to deal with. Anyhow, we should a lot more grateful to GM than aggrieved on the balance of thngs retrospectively. He was nowhere the scale of Bruce, as self professed non football person, but did his bit.