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A spin off from a couple of other threads - but what is going on with keepers in the LoI lately?
Shelvey for Dundalk last night was shocking for Sligo's second (1:20) and not really great for any of the other three to be honest (he wasn't on the pitch for the fifth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oDipVWCHrM
Can't include more than one video per post, so a couple of others coming up...
Maybe worth as a "My keeper is worse than your keeper" thread to relieve frustrations for the season ahead!
Pitaluga for Pat's had a huge let-off last night (2:50) before gifting Waterford their second (4:25)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f77sYt4nxAo
Last week, it was Sergeant for Waterford at it (4:20)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAxgOo8Hdj4
And that's not counting weak efforts from Pohls (for Rovers v Dundalk) or Chorazka (for Bohs v Drogheda) - and plenty of examples last year too.
Don't think the Bohs keeper was too bad. The ball for the second goal should never travelled that far without being attacked by a defender. Then once it bounced on the wet surface he had no chance. We've seen these in the EPL fairly regularly. I repeat it should never travelled that far without being attacked by a defender.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Some of these keepers look like they were signed from a pubs league! Should clubs be trying to sign local goalkeepers instead of poor quality ones from abroad?
I think clubs do try to sign local players but like every position there are limited numbers available and even if you go with a local players you're not free from them having a gaffe or 2. I remember one of the Horgans playing in goal for Rovers was prone to a howler or 2. Talbot had a few for Bohs last year and in one case literally dropped a cross into the back of the net. Stephen McGuiness who was Bohs sub keeper but played the majority of a season when Talbot was injured had a ball bobble over his head when kneeling to collect it. Tadgh Ryan again a sub but always put the fear of God in me when I saw his name on the team sheet. Until his current stint at Shels Conor Kearns was better known for his scuffle with Bohs players and fans. I'm sure fans of other clubs can point out their own local player keeper gaffes as well I'd say the recent streaming and highlights are just adding visibility to something that's been happening in the league for yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by trevy
Whatever about howlers good to see James Talbot back in training with Bohs,hopefully he is in a better place now and can get back playing……
That's definitely a factor for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Bohemia
But equally I don't think LoI clubs have been as chaotic in their recruitment as in the past couple of years - scrambling around for any import being offered, and ending up with dross like Abibi, Oluwayemi and so on. Of course, there's a chance you'll end up with Jaros instead.
(And now I'm reminded of Ola Tidman from 15 years ago - one game for Derry, and shown the door straight after. So it's not entirely a modern phenomenon for sure)
It's early days yet and hopefully he comes good but so far Pitaluga looks a strange one . it was'nt just some last minute punt on a random Estonian , the club had obviously done it's homework on him and he's on the books at a top PL club so you would imagine he has to be far better than he's shown so far . At the moment he looks like he was only introduced to the game of football a few weeks ago
I wonder do Pats regret not keeping hold of David Odumosu? He’s getting rave reviews for Cliftonville and would be well able to play week in and out for Pats…
Being on the books at a top PL club can mean very little when it comes to playing past youth ranks. Lower leagues in the UK are littered with players who have experience like that and every club in the country has had a player come to them with that type of experience and just not live up to it. The only difference between signing Pitaluga and signing someone from Estonia or Poland is that you are likely paying less and won't be stuck with him after the season but the flip side is that if he comes good you also won't have him past the end of the season. There's pros and cons to both approaches imo but neither is a guarantee of any quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Of Aherlow
never thought much of him at drogs when clancy was there. pats signed a lot of keepers on loan under their last two managers with him on the books so doubt they'll be all that regretful. hes young so there scope for improvement but was never convinced by him.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
Pat Jennings Jr has a good reputation as well as contacts, and has done a good job of getting keepers in previously. Odumosu was Clancy's man but Pitaluga looks worryingly like he could be a rare miss for Jennings off of current evidence. What's for certain is he can't kick a ball to save his life and that has been the case in every game, but there's now growing evidence that he's not much use as a shot stopper either between the President's Cup and the nightmare he had on Monday. Still time for him to come good but have to say I don't have a great feeling about it, feels like patience for patience sake with him whereas despite their dodgy starts you could see there was ability in both Jaros and Anang, which proved to be the case.
Danny Rogers is a perfectly fine if unspectacular keeper though, and if he were to come in I wouldn't be too worried, but there's been some murmurs about the terms of Pitaluga's loan that would make it seem he's going to have to he given the chance to come good...
If I were a Pat's fan watching that I'd be more concerned by the other two than the howler. Might be bit harsh but... Camera angle not great for the last, but he's beaten at the near post. Caught completely flat footed for the first. Don't think he can stop it, but he should be getting closer or even get something on it, that dive was just going through the motions.
Are there more incidents? I don't know but yeah the better coverage brings it to the fore.
Consider also the nature of the position, one mistake or lapse in judgement will be punished and possibly be the one thing you're remembered for, certainly within a game, maybe over the course of season or even career. An outfield player has to do a Ronnie Rosenthal, or Terry Leake ;) , to be remembered. But one missed catch or fumble a slippy ball and that's that. Take your pick of just about any top keeper and search their name and howler.
I think the norm in this league, of at least one or two trusted elder statemen playing the position, has changed in recent years. With Mannus' retirement is there a starter over 30? Trevor Clarke? I could be competely wrong here, but that sounds almost unprecendented. Shouldn't there be a 30 year old keeper playing near top of the league? Have we missed a generation?
I'm not saying the age profile is resulting in more noticible howlers. But keeper is the position that lends itself to longevity. And at the moment across the league that seems to be lacking.
Brendan Clarke is 38 and has been Galway Utd's best player since he signed for us
Tim Heimer had a howler in the first game against Longford with the first and the second seemed poor as well. Hopefully just a blip as he was very good last season
You'd have to be a bit unhinged, A narccisist or complete obsessive to be a keeper, like an outhalf in rugby or quartback in NFL. The quality of a keeper often shown in how they respond to a howler. They will always happen, those that do the basics all of the time mimise the the risk imo. Mannus had the odd one but he earned more points for rovers than lost and after a howler he was spectacular after and for games after. If a keeper is so brittle that a howler causes them to implode then you'd have to question their position at a top level club. They may have the ability beut they need a certain personality also. Some try to be a bit flashy, 1 example that comes to mind is Odumosu when he got a chance to start for St Pats, he was so eager to impress that he tried making bread and butter stuff spectacular and resulted in a howler or 2 - Instead of a basic parry away from the zone of play or out of play, he went for the full one handed dive to tip around the post but let it in at his near post. It was inexperience and trying too hard but that is coachable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Bohemia
We have a great history of top class keepers at Dundalk over the years but there were some awful ones too. Going back a bit, Jody Byrne started ahead of Eddie Van Boxtel 94/95(?) league winning season but I still have nightmares of him trying to collect any cross, high ball or being anywhere near the ball!! He tooking one cross comfortably and the dropped the ball over the line, the plamed a ball in to the net when trying to tip it over the bar, did a Jim Leighton effort and was dropped for the Boxter - mad as the come but a damn good keeper and i think it was he really just didnt give 2 fooks! Alan O'Neill when they1st introduced the back pass rule nearly gave me a stroke in my early teens, my faourite Dundalk FC keeper and best of all ive seen, but between picking up the back pass or trying to actually recieve and give a pass rather than the old punt down the pitch, it was hard to watch, funny looking back and a shame there isnt footage of him and in general when they had to change theor entire way of playing the game.
I think myself there is something in keepers not coming up through local coaching system and in to LoI,weaking the overall howerlerproofing. If it happens that they are solid in the past played at senior level but now if a keeper has developed well they tend to be transferred out of the league as a revenue stream, it is what it is. It means we look abroad more often now for keepers and whats affordable for reasoable standard are young loanees with limited senior experience and young keepers are just more prone to howlers.
Mannus, McGinty, Talbot when available, Maher, Clarke are/were gold dust players (yet all have had their moments). Dundalks crazy season(s) after Rogers retired, if we had signed Brian Murphy who was available on a freebie a solid and teasted keeper and wantedthe move, rather than an Abibi and others we would probably qualified for Europe 2021 and maybe gone another round after the Vitesse tie, would have been nice to have a pop at Anderlecht. Not saying Murphy was the be all of keepers, just that anything decent, tried and tested, at that time and that crazy spell could have been more fun. Cherrie I think had just settled on No.2 and winding down to retirement so when he did come in for Abibi he hadhis own howler immediately in LongfodI think but he was ring rusty but steadied things a bit.
In retrospect Dundalk have gone backwards after the retirement of Rogers and I wonder if he, as much as any other individual thats left, has had a significant impact on overal performance? and he had more than a few clangers like clattering that AZ player ala GAA code, I though he'd killed the chap the way the AZ players reacted.
Forced out of Pats by Stephen O’Donnell, which seemed unnecessary at the time. We’ve been lucky with our loan keepers over the past couple of seasons (Jaros and Lyness in particular) but it’s hard to have stability when you’re changing your keeper every year. Pitiluga doesn’t look up to it so far, and it’s hard to see how he can stay in the team in the short term. The defence must have no confidence in him at all at this stage. Danny Rogers has had few enough chances at Pats, but has looked ok when he’s played. He surely has got to start tomorrow night. Strange to give him a contract and then bring in a kid on loan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckett
It'd be fun, and its bound to happen, if there were clauses that loanee keepers had to play x number of games, no termination of loans etc. Ye'd have to wonder about how a club the size of Liverpool have even a young keeper to go out on loan thats not up to it. It could really be a make or break career move for such a player. If they cant hack LoI can they do much at a higher level? A lot of pressure. Risk for the player, not so much for the parent club and it feels a bit grubby to be the clubs that these lads are sent out to most likely to see if they are worth anything to a parent club or for the unattached list. If they do do well on loan then recalled in July and probably sent out on loan again.
I think you've hit on the point of these loans. It's a win/win for the parent club and a risk for the loan club and even bigger for the player. There's lot of articles out there about "loan armies" with Chelsea in particular using this tactic. The way they see it if the player performs well any transfer fee they might get in future is increased because the player is more proven and best case scenario they have a player with experience they can plug into their first team. Worst case scenario they know that have to move on from the player earlier than they would have in years gone by. Big PL clubs are stockpiling as much young talent as they can and then using this tactic to get a return on the investment earlier or cutting losses earlier. The next phase of this idea seems to be "football groups" where 1 entity has multiple clubs with one club at the top being fed all the best talents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
If you sell an academy player, the fee is accounted as pure profit, helps with ffp.
https://www.theguardian.com/football...revenue-stream
I think Munro for Dundalk has judged the flight of the ball poorly for Shels first goal on Friday.
The howler of the weekend goes to Leon Pohls for rovers though. Awful decision making and positioning, he had no reason to come off his line there but even when he did he left most of the goal wide open and it was a simple pass into the goal for McDaid
https://youtu.be/m3MVzgiYhmg?si=r8UoPyHAagZZ00Pp
That looks like a FIFA error. I think he's accepted it's a goal even before McDaid gets to the ball.
https://youtu.be/0JKXSVoeS48?si=4Vj3f8zFDxnI5EaL
Similar howler from Bray on Friday…..
the level of keeping and defending in the FD this season is beyond pathetic.
Bizarre decision making. To the point you'd wonder if he had money on it to be honest. Hopefully just part of his learning curve as he's realistically a complete rookie. Makes great saves but his positioning is suspect. About what you'd expect for a lad with that level of experience maybe but he needs to learn fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract
Saw that first goal when watching back the highlights, absolutely appalling. I thought Corcorcan coming out may have been a blessing.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
On a side note, can't believe Matt McKevitt is scoring goals. I still don't overly rate him but credit where it's due.
Barry Murphy was on the LOI central podcast talking about keepers. He's of the opinion that a lot of the issues stem from Keepers being asked to do more than just the basics of keeping. I'd agree to an extent but there are still some very questionable blunders not related to "non goalkeeping duties". I think the goal Rovers conceded to Bohs was an example of that. Pohls just made a goalkeeping error, it wasn't distribution or being asked to do too much. He just had a very obvious brain fart and I think that's happening a lot more this season.
He was excellent on Monday but not hard to look good against us atmQuote:
Originally Posted by Shearer
The LOITV cameras didn't catch Kerry's equaliser in the Bowl, but it seems Kerry had a camera behind the goal too, which our keeper may have wished wasn't there (from 1:50)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OhDtW7EG2A
Beyond lazy that UCD are only team across both divisions using that dross of a system. A campus full of students, surely someone can man a camera and run a stream.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
They're paying to use it now too, which makes it worse.
Kind of annoys me that people assume students are a free source of labour. We've a policy in our place that if someone comes looking for our students to work on something and all they're offering is 'experience' (often below the level the students are at) we tell them to pay them, at least minimum wage, or go somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by outspoken
Apart from which, there's a lot of students in HEIs who, between classes, assisgnments, jobs, and commuting are clocking in at 50+ hours a week. They don't have the time to give, much less for free.
Yeah but the Arts students that are doing Film and TV (not commuting) will have the free time. Maybe there is a F+TV society that could be asked and maybe expenses paid by the club, easy internal money transfer between a club and soc.
What's the point if there's a system already in place though? Yeah, it missed the Kerry goal (no bad thing in fairness!) but it's generally been excellent, and people will miss goals too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think UCD offers a film-making degree - it's film studies. So those students could wax lyrical about about semiotics in Kurosawa's Rashomon, and the implicit aural landscape of the silent movie, but may not have a clue how to set up a camera and lighting. If there was a club or soc where students were using kit and had the skills to help out, they might be useful as paid, not expensed, supplementary help to the system already in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
It's not true that Arts students are underworked - I've spent ten of my 12 years in HE as an arts student (the other two in applied arts), and I work in a HEI arts faculty these days (let's face - all that study, what else am I fit for?!). To do well, it's a three to one ratio of independent study to contact, and about six to one in fourth year. Even cutting the independent part by a third still leaves a heavy workload, when, as a rule of thumb, every 5 ECTs requires 2-3 hours contact per week. Given that every degree is 30 ECTs per semester, that's about 12-18 hours weekly contact (not surprisingly, universities prefer the lowest possible figure!) and 24-36 of study. The last student survey I've seen would suggest that students who work do about 18 hours a week. And I know it's worse in science, healthcare, engineering and so on.
But, yeah, dodgy keepers - what's that all about? (Trying to get back on topic!):D
For Trinners boys like me... any chance to laugh at UCD and forget the annual Colours drubbing!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I've never heard pixellot described as anything other than horrendous. It's really awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I'm sorry but people would not have missed the Kerry goal. While people will make mistakes and miss things, these types of misses are more common with that system. Sure a few years ago it mistook a linesman for the ball on a sunny day. As for who runs the camera I'm not particularly most teams now use video analysis as part of their coaching and they don't just video the matches so if UCD are one of these teams (can't see why they wouldn't be tbh) then why not have the person who does the video for the training sessions?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Would ya stop. It's not fit for the binQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Having recorded the odd game for Longford down the years it's a different remit to recording a game for a viewing audience. Generally you are keeping a wider shot so the coaches can see the entire pitch, movement off the ball etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Bohemia