French Quality?

The following is the French squad that performed so miserably in the 2002 World Cup finals. I have marked those players who will be in the squad and very possibly playing at Lansdowne next week. Goal keepers...Barthez, Rame,*Coupet* Defenders... *Thuram* *Sagnol* Desailly Leboeuf Candela Christanval Silvestre. Midfielders...*Viera* *Zidane* *Makele* *Micoud* Petit Djorkaeff Boghassian. Forwards....*Henry* *Wiltord* *Cisse* Trezeguet Dugarry. This team of *world beaters* were awfol and did not even get out of their group. Now the lot of *them* are 4 years older and past there best. I am not suggesting that we should not be worried about their quality, but, I believe it puts some perspective on their tab as being one of the best in Europe. We should only respect them as an opponent and let them worry about us. I believe it will be a close game, but I have absolutely no doubt,that we will win next week. You can all thank me next Thursday....make it Friday I will need the extra day to recover from the hangover ;)

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Originally Posted by mountie

The following is the French squad that performed so miserably in the 2002 World Cup finals... Now the lot of *them* are 4 years older and past there best.

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Wasn't 2002 only 3 years ago?

I'm still worried - man for man they are better than us. As was said before, Given and perhaps Duff aside, that cannot be disputed. The problem in 2002 and 2004 was that their heads weren't right and the morale was lacking; since the three boys came back for them it seems they are in great spirits altogether. While we may raise what has been a negligable standard of concentration and passion for this match, I don't see how we can match them.

Hate to say it, but I can't help but think we'll be rolled over lads. :(

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Originally Posted by TerryPhelan

I'm still worried - man for man they are better than us. As was said before, Given and perhaps Duff aside, that cannot be disputed

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I'd like to dispute it. For a start, when did Vieira last get the better of Roy Keane? I'd rather have Ireland's Robbie Keane than Djibril Cisse or Silvain Wiltord. Finnan is as good as either of their full backs. Did you see Boumsong last week? And what do you mean "perhaps Duff"?

I'm not being a blind optimist here. France are justifiably favourites but not massive favourites. If we get things right on the night we've a great chance.

Did you see that Times article questioning the impact on morale of the trio's return? If I was displaced by a guy who only last week said he didn't want to be picked (Thuram) I'd hardly be "in great spirits". The fairweather French public are probably in great spirits but what does that count for? None of the French players seems to have respected Domenech before so why should that change now?

I actually think that out wide we're better than them and we WILL make chances.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'd like to dispute it. For a start, when did Vieira last get the better of Roy Keane? I'd rather have Ireland's Robbie Keane than Djibril Cisse or Silvain Wiltord. Finnan is as good as either of their full backs. Did you see Boumsong last week? And what do you mean "perhaps Duff"?

I'm not being a blind optimist here. France are justifiably favourites but not massive favourites. If we get things right on the night we've a great chance.

Did you see that Times article questioning the impact on morale of the trio's return? If I was displaced by a guy who only last week said he didn't want to be picked (Thuram) I'd hardly be "in great spirits". The fairweather French public are probably in great spirits but what does that count for? None of the French players seems to have respected Domenech before so why should that change now?

I actually think that out wide we're better than them and we WILL make chances.

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OK, but I suppose what I am trying to get at is that they have more game-breakers than us. It is still uncertain whether Kerr will go for Reid or Finnan on the right - selecting the latter would diminish our ability to attack, and get balls in, from out wide.

Boumsong isn't a dead cert to start, but I don't think one bad game suddenly makes him inferior to the likes of Andy O'Brien (who was unable to win his place back from Jean-Alain and had to leave Newcastle). He is an excellent athlete, great in the air, and has kept a player as quality as Henry in his pocket every time he's played him (and as an Arsenal fan, it was uncomfortable viewing).

And I don't think it matters that these 3 have come in and 'taken other players' places'. For a start, the team selection under Domenech has hardly been consistent, so there wasn't a fixed or settled first XI to deviate from. Secondly, I think French squad as a whole would actually be more confident of making the WC now that these 3 are back, which is what they all want anyway. And thirdly, what really matters is how their first XI as it's picked for the Faroes and Ireland gets on, not if a sub or 2 is a bit peeved at having lost his place to the former World Player of the Year etc.

Maybe France got a bit of stage-fright from being holders of the WC and EC but they still won every single qualifier in the last set of qualifiers.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'd like to dispute it. For a start, when did Vieira last get the better of Roy Keane? .

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The likihood emerging today is that Domenech will go with Makelele and Dhorosoo or Zidane. In which case one could beg the question, when was the last time Roy Keane or Kilbane got the better of Makelele or Zidane? Kilbane was outstanding in Paris but I wouldn't say we outplayed them in Midfield. Watching that game again is something else. We did not dominate as I even felt we did when leaving the stadium

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'd rather have Ireland's Robbie Keane than Djibril Cisse or Silvain Wiltord. .

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Your comparing our top striker certain to start, with a player who if starts will probably play wide right in Wiltord or will be the second stiker in Cisse. Why not compare our top stiker with theirs. Would you have Robbie Keane before Thierry Henry? Would you have Morrison, Elliot and Doherty before their back up strikers of Cisse, Wiltord and possibly Giuly.........it's an easy question for me.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Finnan is as good as either of their full backs. Did you see Boumsong last week? .

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I agree with Finnan but don't agree on Boumsong, I've seen him play in the flesh a couple of times now and have been more than impressed. Yes he's made mistakes at times but surely no more than Cunningham, Dunne or O'Brien. In fact if you looked at the impact our top forwards have had against him at premiership level compared to their top forwards against ours, the stats speak for themselves. I've had the privliage of seeing Henry giving all 3 mentioned above the run around on more than one occasssion and yes that includes O'Brien. The chances that Henry has got against O'Brien cannot be overlooked due to him not scoring or being twarthed by a truely world class keeper in Given.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

If we get things right on the night we've a great chance. .

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I think this statement is factually correct and agree with you we do have a fantastic chance at home. I do believe however that if the French 'get things right' they can be devastating. If both teams are at their VERY best, I feel (imo) that the French are the better all round team with better goalscoring potential, better retention of the ball and more techincally gifted match winners.

Usually when I mention this I get Holland 2001 thrown at me. I've watched the game numorous times since and still can't believe we won it. We were murdered technically & tactically in the game and on another day could have been 2 or 3 down within minutes and could have had a real whipping. Even with the so called tactical boo boo (which I don't agree was a boo boo) of Van Gaal throwing five forwards up, the dutch created 4 or 5 chances in that formation against us and could have easily grabbed the game. Thank Heavens for Shay Given.

If the French play to their best (and I'm not saying they will), I fear we will once again need lady luck to shine down on us. The one thing that really does help us out in our game is our desire and willingness to work for each other that was displayed that day against Holland


I do believe Ireland have a great chance to beat them. Recent games agianst Italy and Isreal haven't filled me either with great confidence but as a supporter I'm confident we can do it. Taking my supporter hat off however, looking at the two squads, their perceived abilities and potential - I would have to put my money on France.

I also don't go along with the idea of unrest in the French camp. It's not like the players who are returning walked out on their country - infact it's the complete opposite, they are returning in their hour of need.

As a french mate who works in Ireland said to me recently, "How come Irish fans feel Roy Keane returning was a massive positive lift to your team, yet the same fans feel that Zidane and co returning to France is negative for us?"

Karlos, you can dissect my post all you like but my underlying point is the same - we've got 4 or 5 players of real quality too. I know Keane probably won't be squaring up to Vieira directly but I don't have any inferiority complex because Makelele will be anchoring their midfield and Roy Keane ours. And so on through your player vs player arguements.

As for your French mate, well, I think it's fair to question if the French trio's return is all a one-way-street. Roy Keane's return to the Irish team drew comment about team moral at the time so his question isn't well-founded in my view.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Karlos, you can dissect my post all you like but my underlying point is the same - we've got 4 or 5 players of real quality too. I know Keane probably won't be squaring up to Vieira directly but I don't have any inferiority complex because Makelele will be anchoring their midfield and Roy Keane ours. And so on through your player vs player arguements. .

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I've never denied that we have 4 or 5 players of real quality but I stress again that they have 5 0r 6 World Class players and I believe a reamining squad of players who conssistantly perform at a higher level than similar players in our squad - see my points on Cisse, Wiltord etc..

To be honest Stuttgart, I've just followed on from your point of highlighting how france aren't a better team player for player and the debate that you started with player vs player comparisions.

I've tried to supply facts to back up why I believe that and tried to avoid not just plucking wild comparrisons of players. Your view was open to debate and that's what I have tried to do, intelligently.

Fair enough Karlos. I'm just reacting to this wave of pessimism that's sweeping through the board. I'm not blind to the fact that we're second favourites - even in my own subjective mind - but I've been at dozens of games at Lansdowne where a good team performance & home advantage has seen us beat "better" opponents. I see no reason why it can't happen again.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Fair enough Karlos. I'm just reacting to this wave of pessimism that's sweeping through the board. I'm not blind to the fact that we're second favourites - even in my own subjective mind - but I've been at dozens of games at Lansdowne where a good team performance & home advantage has seen us beat "better" opponents. I see no reason why it can't happen again.

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Don't for a minute think i don't hope it bloody happens again! Anything can happen on Wednesday and at the end of the day we all want the same thing, however it comes about :)

C'mon Ireland!

Well according to Gallas referring to the match on Wednesday it "would not be such a great achievement to win there"

Full article here

B.

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Originally Posted by BaZmO*

Well according to Gallas referring to the match on Wednesday it "would not be such a great achievement to win there"

Full article here

B.

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I think a lot of the biggest footballing nations wouldn't consider winning away in ireland as a major achievement or a glory night for football in their history.

Rightly or wrongly, Nations like France expect to win every game home or away and generally only consider beating what they consider their top rivals like Brazil, Germany, England, Italy etc as major or great achievements. This is normal for top teams but I think you san see that they know they have a tough game on their hands against us at home on Wednesday. A win for us will be far more historic than a win for them. :)

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

I think a lot of the biggest footballing nations wouldn't consider winning away in ireland as a major achievement or a glory night for football in their history.

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Oh I agree. However, as is the way with football, underestimate your opponents at your peril.

B.

I think the point of my thread has been missed here. The negativity and fear you guys are displaying is exactly why I posted my comments. WE should not be fearful of this team, yes they won all of thier qualifiers LAST time, but not THIS time. Yes, they are 3 years older not 4. ZZ was player of the year in 1998 and 2000, long time ago in football. Henry is great....when he plays against teams outside of Chelsea Man U etc. His record in Champions league and for France is ordinary. My point being that we Irish always look on the positives of our opponents and the negatives of our own. I hear " France are due a good performance" but the reality is that SO ARE WE. Our players know this is crunch time and just like the French our players WANT BADLY to play
in Germany. Forget about what happened against Israel it's over, we will still qualify from this group. I do not see our players sitting in the dressing room saying " Jeez, they got ZZ, Makele, Henry.....what are we gonna do?" Yeah right, I would love to be sitting there listening to Roy drummin' up the boy's and getting them ready for the game. If you guys are any indication of how our *quality professional premiership players" think then GOD help us!!!
BE POSITIVE BOYS!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by BaZmO*

Oh I agree. However, as is the way with football, underestimate your opponents at your peril.

B.

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Very true

There is so much bollócks posted in the buid up to Ireland games its unreal. The usual stuff about how were going to get hammered and how better the opposition are technically. Ive stopped going along with it.

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As a french mate who works in Ireland said to me recently, "How come Irish fans feel Roy Keane returning was a massive positive lift to your team, yet the same fans feel that Zidane and co returning to France is negative for us?"

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This french dude needs to take a look at the Irish side, Roy keane pulls all the strings for Ireland, historically he sets the tempo and makes sure everyone does his job. He pushes everyone. Zidane is all about how good he was with the ball. Sure a lot of the stuff he did was impressive in the past but he never hurt you as much as it should have. He belongs in a circus. France were very lucky against England in Euro 2004. They lost to Greece FFS, just gritty defending did that.

We hyped Israel up until there was nothing left to hype up. And the end of the day, they were just a bog standard team with one primership player. Benayoun or whatever he is called. They got their tatics right on the day and worked hard. Thats all. Switzerland are a similar pile of sh1te.

We play our best football against the best teams. The bigger the occasion the better players play. France wont get time and space to move the ball around pretty, the crowd wont be oohing and ahhing when they try to string a load of passes together. They will be under the kosh for 90 minutes being booed by the fans in a old stadium thats hard to play football. And if France score its going to be from a break.

Ireland have yet to play their best football. Its always a good sign of a team when there is still room for improvement. It usually takes a qualification campaign to figure out what your best team is. We didnt know who is best up front after injuries etc. There wont be 7 changes or whatever it was if robbie or clinton gets injured this time. The team knows that they have only 3 games left and have to win them all - Minds are focused.

I think the French will have to eat humble pie come Wednesday night. It wont be pretty football but it will be a win for Ireland. Worst case is a draw.

Its time a postive attitude was adotped and concentrate on what Ireland is going to do. How we are going to win the match instead of what the opposition has done years and years ago.

Ben Haim plays for Bolton also and their keeper plays in the Spanish 1st Division.

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Originally Posted by mountie

I
Henry is great....when he plays against teams outside of Chelsea Man U etc. His record in Champions league and for France is ordinary

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The differing levels of positivity can be best summed up by your statement above. What you see in Henry is different than what I see and might explain our differing levels of positivity. :)

In Henry I see the current two year running european golden boot winner. I see a player that's scored 29 goals in 71 games for his country. I see a player whos got 8 goals in 17 games in World Cups and European Championships. I see a player who has got 35 Champions League Goals in 66 matches (that's approx one goal in every 1.5 game in Europe). I remember consistant goals against both United and Chelsea. I remember him lobbing Barthez at Highbury, I remember his goal in the 6-1 defeat at Old Trafford, I remember the bullet past Roy Carroll at Highbury I remember the two late goals Vs United in a 3-1 win in 2001, I remember the two goals Vs Chelsea last season, I remember the FA Cup Qtr Final goal against Chelsea. I remember the two goals against liverpool days after being knocked out of the FA Cup and Champions League. I've consistantly witnessed some of these big game performances in the flesh. I know what he can do. All of this is what I base my feelings on, you base yours on something else. There's nothing wrong with that, it just means I don't display the same level of positivity as you. This has no bearing on any willingness to sing and support the team or indeed influence the result. ;)


Please note, I don't want to start a big Henry debate, I'm just using this as an example as to how you see things one way and I and others might see it another. This is only one player remember. You'd need to muliply it by 22 to see the full picture of the fears I have should FRance perform to their best. :)

Just a quick question. In Paris, Where you singing Thierry Henry you're having a laugh. Will you be doin it again on Wednesday if he misses an easy chance. I know a few people that find it hard to give abuse or slagging to players that play for "their" clubs. Not saying you do but just wondering.

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

This french dude needs to take a look at the Irish side, Roy keane pulls all the strings for Ireland, historically he sets the tempo and makes sure everyone does his job. He pushes everyone. Zidane is all about how good he was with the ball. Sure a lot of the stuff he did was impressive in the past but he never hurt you as much as it should have. He belongs in a circus. France were very lucky against England in Euro 2004. They lost to Greece FFS, just gritty defending did that. .

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You have got to be having a laugh. Zidane has been a key playmaker and tempo setter wherever he has been and consistantly pulls the stings from midfield for every team he has been at. His range of passing has allowed them to move from defence to attack at astonishing rates. In killing off games, his ball rentention is second to nobody, even the great Roy Keane. I have never witnessed someone control and change the pace of games as Zidane has done at Juve, Madrid, and for France on a regualr basis. Added to his elegant style, unrecognised work rate, shooting and heading ability, he is the epitomy of a modern midfield playmaker. In my opinion he has been the most amazing player of my generation. fantastic as Roy Keane is, his all round game doen't come close - not back in the day and certainly not now.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Just a quick question. In Paris, Where you singing Thierry Henry you're having a laugh. Will you be doin it again on Wednesday if he misses an easy chance. I know a few people that find it hard to give abuse or slagging to players that play for "their" clubs. Not saying you do but just wondering.

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Nah, I'll be signing along as I was in Paris where I was also boo-ing Pires. I won't abuse them, but I'll definetly join in any banter of a friendly nature as the Theirry Henry song was in Paris. My fear however is that song might come back to haunt us. I hope it doesn't. :)

Well his record at Internatinoal level is pretty similar to Robbie keanes so lets hope they are quaking about Robbie in the same way as some of the people on here are about Henry. We marked him out of the game in Paris so it can be done again.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Well his record at Internatinoal level is pretty similar to Robbie keanes so lets hope they are quaking about Robbie in the same way as some of the people on here are about Henry. .

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I think when Robbie has won two consequtive golden boots and is regarded by the world's International Managers as one of the top 3 players in world football 3 years running they will be. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

We marked him out of the game in Paris so it can be done again.

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Of course it can be done, I'm not denying that. I just don't go along with this poor international, big game and top side record crap that's sprouted out. As someone who watches him on a fairly regualr basis live, I know how good he can be against even better defenders than we have. The postive for us however is that he's not yet fully fit after the injury (or maybe that's an ominous sign as he's got 3 goals already unfit and has had a 10 day rest! :confused: )

We'll see very shortly! :)

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

In Henry I see the current two year running european golden boot winner. I see a player that's scored 29 goals in 71 games for his country.

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Robbie Keane
Caps: 61 Goals: 25

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

You'd need to muliply it by 22 to see the full picture of the fears I have should FRance perform to their best. :)

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IF

B.

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Originally Posted by BaZmO*

Robbie Keane
Caps: 61 Goals: 25


B.

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There's no denying Robbies Record and I've all my hopes for goals pinned on him. He's the best striker we have had and I love him to bits (although the spurs thing still hurts!) :D


I don't think I am alone however when I don't consider him to be as good an all round player as Theirry Henry. I know for one, Martin jol would agree with me. I don't think a swap deal by Arsene is on the cards either ;)

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

I don't think I am alone however when I don't consider him to be as good an all round player as Theirry Henry. I know for one, Martin jol would agree with me. I don't think a swap deal by Arsene is on the cards either ;)

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Without doubt, Henry is a better all round player but I was just making the point that Robbie gets as much goals as Henry, that's all.

B.

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Originally Posted by BaZmO*

Without doubt, Henry is a better all round player but I was just making the point that Robbie gets as much goals as Henry, that's all.

B.

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Yep and it's a fair point too. ;)

I didn't want to start making comparisons between the two, I was merely using Henry as one example as to why I'm not overly confident. It's not my only reason, it's just one that was easy to use based on the previous post reasons for us to be more positive :)

It just occured to me that the Serie A and Primera Liga season are only after kicking off. With the Irish team all playing in England, they will have a month's lead in fitness terms on the French Spanish and Italian-based players. Could this be a factor later in the game?

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

It just occured to me that the Serie A and Primera Liga season are only after kicking off. With the Irish team all playing in England, they will have a month's lead in fitness terms on the French Spanish and Italian-based players. Could this be a factor later in the game?

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Yep, I mentioned that a little while back. I think it could be a factor alright.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

It just occured to me that the Serie A and Primera Liga season are only after kicking off. With the Irish team all playing in England, they will have a month's lead in fitness terms on the French Spanish and Italian-based players. Could this be a factor later in the game?

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Not sure if it will but it'll be a handy excuse for either loser. ;) i.e. French players have had more time to rest than us or French players aren't fit enough yet and that contributed to the loss to the Irish. Let's hope it's the seconf one! :)

Henry rarely produces for France. I honestly don't fear him for France (well, if France had no other decent players it'd be a different case). I may fear Lampard if my favourite club were playing Chelsea but I certainly wouldn't fear him if we were playing England. The simple fact is I've yet to see Lampard have an excellent game for England. Henry has had one or two for France but he is not the same player for France as he is for Arsenal. There's plenty more players to fear than Henry.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Henry rarely produces for France. I honestly don't fear him for France (well, if France had no other decent players it'd be a different case). I may fear Lampard if my favourite club were playing Chelsea but I certainly wouldn't fear him if we were playing England. The simple fact is I've yet to see Lampard have an excellent game for England. Henry has had one or two for France but he is not the same player for France as he is for Arsenal. There's plenty more players to fear than Henry.

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I take your point. As i said it was only one example I was using based on a previous post to highlight optimism or lack of. I'll admit though, I am far more worried about the influence of Zidane and Makelele on the tempo and pace of the game than anything else. We must not conceed the first goal. :)

karlos....are you also afraid of your shadow? Its A TEAM of eleven against a TEAM of eleven. You can individualise all you want, but the reality is we are capable of winning and thats how I see it going. Our team will not fear these players, they see most of them weekly and will not be bothered by their inflated reputations. Ask yourself what has this French team done during this qualification thats better than us....their's nothin' between them except we are at home and history shows that gives us an advantage. So take a couple of anti depressants. kick back and enjoy the game...

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Originally Posted by mountie

karlos....are you also afraid of your shadow? ..

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No it's Theirry right foot I was afraid off and justifiably so. God I hated being right more than ever. He doesn't do it the big games, he's a crap international record etc etc....all came to bite us in the ass 2nite. Theiry Henry your havin a laff ( i bet he is..) :( :(

Henry still doesn't look fit, did nothing in the game and then wham, produced a moment of pure football brilliance something that no one in our team can produce for us when we need to pull ourselves into a game. :(