Summer Football Working

I know summer football doesn't necessarily translate into better crowd but IMO its been unqualified success for European Results.

eL sides are no longer the plucky losers but are beating bigger clubs live on TV. IMO winning in Europe on TV is the important fact.

Consistently knocking out bigger clubs in Europe live on TV like Shels last year & Cork City this year must be making an impression on neutrals & bar stoolers.

This must also be a big selling point to attract players back from the UK.

I think the FAI gave City 10k grant to prepare for Uefa Cup 2nd qualifying round which is good but hopefully they do something to develop on this publicity for the whole league...?

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Originally Posted by pete

eL sides are no longer the plucky losers but are beating bigger clubs live on TV. IMO winning in Europe on TV is the important fact.

Consistently knocking out bigger clubs in Europe live on TV like Shels last year & Cork City this year must be making an impression on neutrals & bar stoolers.

This must also be a big selling point to attract players back from the UK.

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Agree 100%. Last night was real vindication for why I follow the eL. Absolutely great.

eL sides are their best when they play football too. We won't beat many teams physically.

Clubs in the UEFA Cup proper for 2 years in a row, to me that shows serious signs of progression! ALot of the credit has to go to summer soccer there IMO. Hell, Djurgardens are fully fit, middle of their season etc, and just couldn't cope!

If Cork can break into the Group Stages there will be no doubt about it. But there will always be doubters.

definitely working. Its a big change but in a few years it will feel perfectly normal. I'd love to see all league games played over two days in a week and not spanning across 4 days. in fairness to the premier division the games are usually played on fri.sat.sun. in the 1st divison games are played. thurs.fri.sat.sun and even monday.

Anyhoo summer football working. It should prove to be the first building block upon which an excellent league in the future was built

It levels the playing field. It doesn't even give eL clubs an "advantage". Fact of the matter is most of the clubs we come across in UEFA qualifying due to us being in the Northern section are playing summer soccer. Those who aren't are at a disadvantage. It may give us an advantage in the Inter Toto but in the UEFA Cup particulalry it's just a leveler.

The real debate is the benefits of european football, beyond wishy washy "image of the league" arguements. Shels were the most high profile club for years last year, but even in the midst of that they had some of their worst attendances of the season. And were there, or will there be, any tangible benefits from Cork's run this year?

If no, then summer football has to be seriously questioned because it appears that most clubs are suffering with reduced crowds since it's introduction.

The league season should only be run for the benefits of the european qualifiers if it is for the good of the whole league, not just the select few that can realistically expect to qualify frequently.

Don't agree Macy, within the league you have the haves and have nots. Same as anywhere else. The profile of soccer has to be increased, Corks result and Shels last year do that and no doubt full time professionalism and summer soccer are contributory factors (I think the full time issue sometimes gets overlooked as the ability to train and prepare right, proberly more to the point is the ability to pay attractive wages, that are as competitive as bottom half of english second division meaning top eircom league clubs for Irish guys are a far more exciting prospect than a journeyman career round the nether regions of the British leagues.)
Of course if our obsession with British teams is so strong that regardless of how well our clubs do we'll still wear our British jerseys, then were really on a loser...felt that way when only 7000 people went to watch Shels play Lille(?) last year, and in case we forget, at exactly the same round that Cork have just qualified for!

I think it is more to do with being professional and teams playing their own games rather than adapting to the opposition rather than summer football.

I think summer football helps a bit as it gives EL teams competitive match practice but it's full time football that is helping more as teams can be properly prepared in lots of time for the games without the destraction of work.The influx of players returning from the UK is another factor and it is helping the league at a technical level but i still think we are a long way off a team qualifying for the Champions league proper.

People talk about the crowds being poor.

But, the crowd were **** when it was winter soccer too. :rolleyes:

If the Dublin public got behind the Eircom League then things would improve ot of recognition all around the country.

I think its a rising tide thing. If top sides do better if brings more tv, sponsorship & prize money into the league which will benefit everyone.

City beat 2 teams who also have summer seasons already this year.

I think the whole fulltime professionalism takes a few years to bear fruit which is why City better now.

its a very difficult argument that summer soccer has increased/decreased crowds anyway. you are not able to compare like with like - unless there is a club who has remained in the same league position, playing the same brand of football etc.

overall, i dont think there has been a significant difference either way. in the past crowds were poor, but there were always games that attracted massive crowds (pats-shels used to, cork-shels and derry-cork have done recently). our crowds were very good (after a poor start) last season as we rose up the table. this season has seen a reverse, and mainly due to the standard of football on offer - if reports are true. the level however had very little to do with the season it was at the time.

so what has definately changed:

tv coverage has increased dramatically (possibly more to do with extra channels rather than summer soccer, but that is a seperate argument)

european form has changed beyond belief.

i cant think of any negatives?

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

It levels the playing field. It doesn't even give eL clubs an "advantage". Fact of the matter is most of the clubs we come across in UEFA qualifying due to us being in the Northern section are playing summer soccer. Those who aren't are at a disadvantage. It may give us an advantage in the Inter Toto but in the UEFA Cup particulalry it's just a leveler.

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Spot on and I'm sick of people who can't see that. They think we're getting results by cheating somehow playing in the summer, when in reality we're usually up against summer football opposition ourselves as was the case last night.

As for people saying what good does the high profile european games do? nonsense

This year we're getting upwards of 30 live matches between league and cup, plus 10 or so setanta cup matches. As a reuslt the prize money for winning the league has literally increased near tenfold

Last season pre Hajduk Split v Shels, there had been all of NO matches shown. Post Split there were matches pratically on every week.

The previous season, the first of Shels two in a row, well all I know if Shels, the champions, were shown all of ONCE, the entire season. I think beyond that there was two semi finals, one replay and a final shown.

No benefit eh? :rolleyes: It's not a coincidence. Results in europe are everything for the profile of the league and everything as far as sponsorship, exposure and prize money is concerned.

Crowds are uneffected really, they go up and down depending on club situations, that's football. As far as I can see the only people moaning about summer football are those that demanded instant success as far as crowds are concerned and are whinging when it hasn't come. You wont find an overnight solution, summer soccer was never that, but it is a helping hand.

Take a step back and look at where we are now compared to pre summer soccer. Look at TV coverage, prize money, European results, anything, anything at all, and we're in a better position, a far far better one imo.

I wouldn't change it now for anything.

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Originally Posted by pete

I think its a rising tide thing.

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Definitely. People watching the Cork-Djurgarden game mihgt well be tempted to go to an eL game this weekend. They're not gong to go to Cork City necessarily though - they may go to a Longford-UCD if they're in Longford, Bohs-Wayside if they're near Phibsboro, etc. Cork will get all the money and the glory from beating Djurgarden, but that doesn't mean none of the other clubs can benefit.

Unfortunately not everyone of the barstoolers agrees. I was listening to the Phoneshow on FM 104 last night and some lad called Dermot rang up and said "That Cork game was a load of a ****e......What's the point in the eircom League?.....I want someone to call in and tell me if they've ever seen an entertaining eircom League game...." and so forth.

Either, he has no footballing brain or he represents the thoughts of thousands.

A plant no doubt. The phone show is full of them.

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Originally Posted by Slash/ED

A plant no doubt. The phone show is full of them.

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Ever hear Tom? :D He's a legend!!

Bugger European results - summer football makes sense full stop. I'd much prefer to go to a game in a t-shirt and brilliant sunshine rather than in a damp overcoat in zero conditions and a howling wind. Surely the (for example) Carlisle Grounds in July is much more preferable to the same place in January? No contest, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs psychiatric treatment rather than a return to winter football.

So its nicer for those of us who already go. but does it attract more of the non hardcore fans? I'm not sure. Can't say with Pats (our crowds are soley due to the shiite level of football) but clubs likeLongford are doing better than they were 3/4 years ago and not getting near the crowds they did

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Originally Posted by Billy Lord

Bugger European results - summer football makes sense full stop. I'd much prefer to go to a game in a t-shirt and brilliant sunshine rather than in a damp overcoat in zero conditions and a howling wind. Surely the (for example) Carlisle Grounds in July is much more preferable to the same place in January? No contest, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs psychiatric treatment rather than a return to winter football.

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Well now, hear hear I say. Fúck it, muddy pitches, frozen pitches, frozen bollíx, windy, rain, hail, sleet etc.......
There is no way back :eek:
Long live summer footie :cool:

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Originally Posted by Dodge

So its nicer for those of us who already go. but does it attract more of the non hardcore fans? I'm not sure. Can't say with Pats (our crowds are soley due to the shiite level of football) but clubs likeLongford are doing better than they were 3/4 years ago and not getting near the crowds they did

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Yes but, and I'm not just having a go here, would anyone bar an already converted Longford fan pay money to see them play with the 'style' of football they employ?

Dodge: in all seriousness, would people prefer to go to Bray in July or January? Don't blame the better weather conditions of a summer season for the EL's inability to attract new fans.
Watching football in winter sucks and I'll never forget the sight of an old Rovers fan, now departed, dripping snot profusely from his nose and turning blue on the uncovered terrace in Dalymount in torrential drizzle during the late-1980s. My heart went out to the man. All he wanted was to watch Rovers, as he had done since the 1920s, and he suffered greatly for his devotion.
No one deserves such treatment, least of all the loyal band of EL fans whose devotion to their clubs is unquestionable.
Let's enjoy our days in the sun. We've earned every one of them.

To an extent this debate is a bit of a no-brainer, what is any neutral going to opt for in December/January? A nice warm couch/barstool or the option of going to his local ground in the pouring rain or freezing cold?
I think summer football should be kept but with one proviso, a three week break from mid June to the first week in July. Remember, most clubs are still part time and will be for the foreseeable future, so players and their family's as well as club officials etc could plan their break for this time, this would also avoid clashes with World Cup's and European Championships.
What the EL also need to do is run a TV advertising campaign coinciding with the end of the football season in the Uk. An ad campaign similar in style to the GAA's.
Overall Summer Footie has been good IMO. European results bear this out, or does anyone want to go back to results like Zimbru/St.Pat's? And befeore any Pat's fans jump down my throat I am merely highlighting this as an example.

Increased TV coverage is more to do with Setanta having schedules to fill than anything else. It's totally changed the domestic sports coverage in the country with the increased competition in the market.

As for summer football being better, well maybe it is, but I think there's more competition in the summer, even if that is just beers in the sun. That's before we get into competition from the GAA, which for rural clubs shouldn't be underestimated. And btw, how about a trip to bray in the last few weeks of the season - won't be any different to a winter season...

Increased prize money is more to do with the FAI power struggles than european progress.

Like I say, not necessarily totally against summer football, but remain to be convinced of it's real benefits..

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Originally Posted by Comic Book Guy

To an extent this debate is a bit of a no-brainer, what is any neutral going to opt for in December/January? A nice warm couch/barstool or the option of going to his local ground in the pouring rain or freezing cold?
I think summer football should be kept but with one proviso, a three week break from mid June to the first week in July. Remember, most clubs are still part time and will be for the foreseeable future, so players and their family's as well as club officials etc could plan their break for this time, this would also avoid clashes with World Cup's and European Championships.
What the EL also need to do is run a TV advertising campaign coinciding with the end of the football season in the Uk. An ad campaign similar in style to the GAA's.
Overall Summer Footie has been good IMO. European results bear this out, or does anyone want to go back to results like Zimbru/St.Pat's? And befeore any Pat's fans jump down my throat I am merely highlighting this as an example.

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I agree with the above. A break for the world cup/European championships would be a great help for the league. No one wants to play in games with Ireland in the WC

I'm still buzzing from winning Uefa Cup tie last week so in feel good mode...

Its amazing the FAI don't run promotional campaigns for the eL on the back of Ireland International matches. I know they have that promotion with the Star for France tickets but should really be running more high profile versions ont hat theme. IF we were to qualify for the World Cup would be huge opportunity to bribe people to attending the eL so could win World Cup tickets, meet Irish players at eL games etc...

I think mid season break of say 3 weeks (Ireland won't last longer than that in competition) during the World Cup would be necessary. I think its common in other summer football leagues like Sweden.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Increased TV coverage is more to do with Setanta having schedules to fill than anything else. It's totally changed the domestic sports coverage in the country with the increased competition in the market.

As for summer football being better, well maybe it is, but I think there's more competition in the summer, even if that is just beers in the sun. That's before we get into competition from the GAA, which for rural clubs shouldn't be underestimated. And btw, how about a trip to bray in the last few weeks of the season - won't be any different to a winter season...

Increased prize money is more to do with the FAI power struggles than european progress.

Like I say, not necessarily totally against summer football, but remain to be convinced of it's real benefits..

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And the other TV stations? Like I said, the first of Shels two in a row campaign RTE showed one league game. Before Hajduk Split they showed none that season, after they must have been near double digits, before Setanta got involved. TG4 hadn't shown a single league game, do you really think this has nothing to do with the hype generated over the European success and do you really think the European success has nothing to do with summer football?

Increased prize money is to do with the TV companies, no? So imo can be directly related to success in Europe.

Simply compare the league pre summer football and now. It is in a much better state and summer football has alot but not all to do with that. Why go back? For what possible benefit?

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Originally Posted by Macy

Like I say, not necessarily totally against summer football, but remain to be convinced of it's real benefits..

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Bottom line is though, what case is there to be made for a return to winter football? I, personally, cannot think of one specific advantage that an autumn to spring season has over what we have now.

INteresting article in the IRish TImes today:


"Problems with summer soccer must be attended to
Paul Buttner


National League column: Has the improvement in results of National League teams in Europe over the last two seasons overshadowed the concern among many clubs that summer soccer just hasn't worked?

Following their continental campaign last year - which drew 24,000 to Lansdowne Road for their clash with Deportivo La Coruna - Shelbourne again drew large crowds, and again received extensive media attention, for their Champions League games with Glentoran and Steaua Bucharest this season.

Cork City's rousing 0-0 draw with Djurgardens, and qualification for the first round proper of the Uefa Cup, before a packed Turner's Cross last Thursday (and beamed live on television) further strengthened the perception that everything's rosy in the domestic game.

There can be little doubt that the switch to a summer season has greatly benefited the league's European participants - one of its chief aims.

Irish teams are fitter and better-organised and have acquired a tactical nous conducive to competing in Europe that was lacking heretofore.

However, a noticeable drop off in attendances - particularly during July and August - at many clubs not competing at the business end of things has caused a ripple of concern.

Waterford United, top of the table - albeit for a brief week - back in April, drew up to 3,000 for the Munster derby with Cork City at the RSC five weeks later. When they sank to 10th place by July, attendances of only 300 or so were recorded for the visits of UCD and Bray Wanderers.

A recent St Patrick's Athletic derby meeting with Shelbourne attracted less than 1,900 to Richmond Park. The game was live on television and St Patrick's are a team in transition, but, still, that fixture attracted crowds almost double that a few years ago.

Longford Town, despite their achievements in winning two FAI Cups and a League Cup in the last two years, say their crowds are down noticeably on winter seasons. A mere 800 attended their FAI Cup game with UCD on Saturday night.

First Division leaders Sligo Rovers average around 1,200 - but stress that would be 20 to 30 per cent higher in a winter season, owing mainly to the counterattraction of GAA in the summer months. Dublin City, whose crowds barely exceed a couple of hundred, would lead the call for a change back to the traditional season.

Contrary to the perception of some, though, unofficial attendance figures tell us crowds have actually increased marginally on last year's average of approximately 1,600 to over 1,800 - though Cork going so well may be the chief reason for that.

Those figures are for the Premier Division only, leaving crowds here comparable to those in the Conference in England. Average attendances for both National League divisions are between 12,000 and 13,000 per round of 11 games.

Having had three years now of the change, all clubs have been asked by the league for submissions on how it has worked or otherwise with a view to structuring 2006 and beyond.

At a "Media, Marketing and Money" seminar the league is hosting tomorrow, Professor Bill Gerrard of Leeds University, an international authority on sports finance, will tell us the National League is categorised fifth - on a ranking scale of six - for average attendances from the top divisions across Europe. Ireland is bottom of that fifth category (1,500- 3,000), somewhat surprisingly behind the likes of Cyprus and Albania.

Whatever about attendances, there is little doubt that on the field is where the real benefits have occurred. And the absence of complaints from players is interesting. In a survey done by the PFAI last season, over 90 per cent of players said they would like a mid-season break, though little more than half that number said they would accept a pay freeze during it.

A hiatus is almost certain for next summer's World Cup finals in Germany - especially so should Ireland qualify.

Summer soccer here has attracted interest from overseas, with both the League of Wales - who sent a delegation to speak to clubs here - and the Irish League considering following suit.

Despite reservations in some quarters, it would appear the bulk of the Premier Division clubs would be reluctant to switch back now.

Unless those who continue to harbour qualms about it can mount a strong campaign to convince those who are relatively happy with the status quo, summer soccer looks here to stay".

That article again seems to miss the point about attendences

"a noticeable drop off in attendances - particularly during July and August - at many clubs not competing at the business end of things has caused a ripple of concern"

In case they hadn't noticed, july and august is mid season. That is when crowds are always at their lowest, the buzz of the new season has worn off and the buzz of the business end of the season where everything is up for grabs has yet to kick in. Same as anywhere. Clubs not competing at the business end of thigns ALWAYS get poor crowds, any country, any league.

"Waterford United, top of the table - albeit for a brief week - back in April, drew up to 3,000 for the Munster derby with Cork City at the RSC five weeks later. When they sank to 10th place by July, attendances of only 300 or so were recorded for the visits of UCD and Bray Wanderers."

First of all, is 300 really correct? Anyway, that is no suprise at all. Top of the table and playing in derby = big crowd. Bottom of table and playing ucd = sh*t crowd. Blaming summer soccer for what is simple a fact of league football here is missing the point.

Longfords crowds are down for a few reasons. One, they play football nobody would pay to watch bar the hardcore fans. Secondly, their hype from getting promoted and beating all before them albeit in the first division has worn off and now they are simply an established mid table team. Those teams attract less crowds, no shock there.

Yes it's right our crowds are poor, but they've always been poor, changing to summer soccer was never going to be a miracle cure, so I don't see the relevance of all that to an article debating the merits of summer soccer.

That article was terrible. Was reading this morning & the examples he used were bad. Waterford are having shocking season since Murphy left so not comparing like with like. Comparing Pats v Shels with one 3 years ago is bad example too for numerous reasons. Longford fans also seem to be bored with their football style. Then he includes comment from Sligo which can't be seen as any fact.

The only thing correct in that article is that need convincing arguments to get season changed to winter again.

The only thing consistent about the eL is that we'll yoyo between 10 & 12 team Premier & summer & winter football.

:rolleyes:

at least there's something about the EL in the paper besides the usual hooliganism fictions. Not sure about the tactical nous acquired by Irish teams in Europe though - did he actually see any of the games?

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Originally Posted by bigmac

Not sure about the tactical nous acquired by Irish teams in Europe though - did he actually see any of the games?

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Cork City v Djungerdens. Surely that was a tactical "win" as oppsoed to the old backs to that wall & long ball?

:confused:

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Originally Posted by pete

Cork City v Djungerdens. Surely that was a tactical "win" as oppsoed to the old backs to that wall & long ball?

:confused:

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yeah, but is that a consequence of summer soccer or the effect of an experienced manager who already has "tactical nous"? I fail to see how Shels or Longford benefitted tactically in Europe from summer soccer.

(knew i should have put a cork disclaimer at the end of the post :D )

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Originally Posted by bigmac

yeah, but is that a consequence of summer soccer or the effect of an experienced manager who already has "tactical nous"? I fail to see how Shels or Longford benefitted tactically in Europe from summer soccer.

(knew i should have put a cork disclaimer at the end of the post :D )

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Seeing as the Swedes have a similar Spring to Autumn season as ourselves Cork would have been at a serious disadvantage fitness-wise had they played this tie just coming into the start of a new season as would have been the case up until three years ago. Summer football levelled the playing field in that regard.

As for Shels, they came up against a team that was missing first team players because they were still on their summer holidays - hence a comfortable win - all thanks to summer football!

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Originally Posted by manic da hoop

Seeing as the Swedes have a similar Spring to Autumn season as ourselves Cork would have been at a serious disadvantage fitness-wise had they played this tie just coming into the start of a new season as would have been the case up until three years ago. Summer football levelled the playing field in that regard.

As for Shels, they came up against a team that was missing first team players because they were still on their summer holidays - hence a comfortable win - all thanks to summer football!

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Fitness and general sharpness I agree with, but it's the tactical part that has me puzzled.

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Irish teams are fitter and better-organised and have acquired a tactical nous conducive to competing in Europe that was lacking heretofore

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The problem arising now is similar to those that arise with every significant change in Irish football. We switch to summer football and wait to see what effect it has on attendances. Why is everything done separately? One change is expected to fix the lower attandances at eL games. A switch to summer football does not mean we don't need proper marketing and promotion of the game. Or proper facilities in which to watch them. Summer football on its own won't increase attendances. Marketing on its own won't. Facilities on their own won't. Its a package of things that's needed to achieve better attendances.

I am a huge fan of summer football. I agree with Mr Lord. Give me football in the sunshine anyday. :ball:

If I had a choice between going to St. Colmans park in December or July, July would win hands down.

Look at the pitches around the country.

Turners Cross, Ballybofey, The Brandywell. They are all in excellent condition. :ball:

Remember Inchicore, in the winter. It was pure ****e. Mud and puddles. :o

Attendences is long term problem. There is no quick fix. Change peoples perceptions, better facilities etc., these are the bigger obstacles IMO.

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Originally Posted by manic da hoop

Bottom line is though, what case is there to be made for a return to winter football? I, personally, cannot think of one specific advantage that an autumn to spring season has over what we have now.

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In his newspaper column, Dermot "I hate summer football" Keely used Shels' 1-4 defeat in Europe, to launch a "Genesis-like" tirade against summer football, attendance figures, the entire league, and the whole set-up of football in this country from the top down.

Crowds are down due to the ludicrous kick-off times. Games spread over 4 weekend nights that often put exteremely unfair demands on visiting fans, and games clashing with live GAA tv coverage are the main reasons why crowds are poor, not the timing of the season. Until all league games are played at the same time on Saturday evenings, except for one live tv game, together with proper marketing, will attendances improve.

Dermot Keely is boss of the worst-supported team in the NL, a junior side acting under a commercial title, who play home games in the Discovering Ireland Division that clash with live GAA tv games, and by doing so, go out of their way to ensure that as few people as possible attend their games. It's no surprise therefore, that they are the main advocates of winter football.

The league is progressing, if only gradually. There is more prize money on offer, there are loads of live tv games being shown, and despite the odd bad defeat, our clubs are regularly winning rounds in Europe. It's important that we build on the current momentum that the league is generating, and not go back to the past of muddy ploughfields, regular postponements, and moral victories in Europe, just to satisfy Dermot Keely and others who are still stuck in their ways, maintaining that football is a "winter-only" sport.