Just a personal view, but I think if the Ireland squad played a season together in the Championship under the right manager, they'd get promoted. Whether they'd stay up in the Premier League the following season is open to debate though.
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Just a personal view, but I think if the Ireland squad played a season together in the Championship under the right manager, they'd get promoted. Whether they'd stay up in the Premier League the following season is open to debate though.
Ah there was. The worst Ireland squad of all time and that kind of thing was floated around. I pointed out in a previous thread that it's far more difficult to reach the upper levels of the premier league than it was before. And even making it to the premier league is far more difficult. So some of our regulars will be at yo yo clubs but that doesn't make our squad weaker than it was in the past. I'd go as far as to say that this squad is stronger than many this century bar a player or two. And with the breakthroughs happening, I think our squad in a few years will rival anything we've had in a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
This century does include the squad that played in the world cup in 2002
I think it can be the worst Ireland squad in living memory and not be League 1 standard thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Yes and I think a fair few of our current players would get on that team! Coleman, Doherty, Collins, Egan, McClean, Cullen and a few others would have a good chance of starting ahead of Breen, Old Staunton, Harte, Kilbane, Holland, Kinsella and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I think we have recently had the worst squad in living memory, but I also think we have bottomed out and are slowly starting to build what could be a good squad.
But that's what some people were saying. A league 1 standard and worst squad in living memory. I think we can park that as debunked.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Harte, Kilbane, Holland, Breen and Kinsella were all Premiership standard players. Breen was excellent in that World Cup especially. Id murder for Ian Harte or Kilbane at left back now. Holland and Kinsella would walk into our midfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Who was saying the squad was League 1 standard though?
I don't think we ever had a team with more than 5 L1 players so the team/squad couldn't have been L1 standard
But it still could have been the worst in living memory
I'd pick Doherty over Harte, McClean v Kilbane is a 50/50, I think Cullen gets ahead of one of Kinsella or Holland and we have subs that would get ahead of Breen. Duffy for example. If the players mentioned from 2002 were around now, they'd be playing in the championship. It's changed a lot since back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I don't have their names but it was mentioned, I heard it at matches, I think after 1 of our embarrassing performances.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Well I never thought we had a league 1 level squad so you may take it up with those who did.
I'd love to take it up with those who said it if you could let us know who said it ;)
It's clearly not true though, so not sure what's to be gained by countering a point no-one here is making
On direct comparison, you may say Cullen now would be better than Kinsella/Holland 2002. I'm not sure I'd agree, but it's not the most outrageous suggestion ever. But the danger then is that you miss capturing the idea that standing still (Cullen v Holland) is, relatively speaking, going backwards. So I think the "weakest-ever" moniker is valid, even if it should rightly be in a relative sense
Doherty isnt a left back though.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
I also think youre underestimating Kilbane too. He was good enough to play center midfield for us for a while, was man of match in Paris I think
Mostly people seeking to defend Stephen Kenny after poor results.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I told you, I don't know their names. ? Wasn't just talking about here also.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think McCarthy's squad was probably our weakest squad of this century but he still had some decent players to pick.
No but I'd pick him at left back ahead of Harte!Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Kilbane and McClean have similar attributes. Left back/left wing back/ left midfielder. Neither had the greatest skill level but a certain amount of pace and supreme dedication to Ireland. Kilbane was beside Keane in that game, that helps.
I think people would agree that he wouldn't have near the amount of premium league appearances in the modern game.
That's true. Those people went overboard in slating our players. It was kind of ironic because the very same people were castigating previous managers who questioned our quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
To quote Game of Thrones….. “Oh you sweet summer child”Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
That’s seeped in regency bias and clearly too young you have digested the calibre of players they were in 2002.
The player Collins could eventually become, could get in.
Or the player Coleman was, might challenge. Keeping in mind we had the 3 best right backs in England in our squads for the campaign. (Carrs injury notwithstanding). But if we’re doing a point in time comparison of today versus summer 2002 I’d probably only take Evan Ferguson ahead of the Clint as wild card gamble. At that point Clinton was only with us a short time and not in the team.
Spun this off into its own discussion
The best thing you can say about our current squad is that there are players with potential. Even our best players in this group have done very little if anything at a top level, barring Doherty and Coleman who have put together a solid body of work in the premier league. The 2002 squad pushed Spain to the brink of elimination, even after losing the team's strongest player. Maybe there were a few past their absolute peak, but they were high calibre players, many of whom had relatively long careers at big teams.
I'm hopeful our young guys can take the next step but they have a lot to do.
different game now , very hard to compare imo. always rated ian harte think he would have done a job in todays game though
The formation we use is certainly different so there’s a case to be made there. But has the international game evolved to the same degree as the Club game though ?? I’m not so sure.
Harte had his strengths and weaknesses. He wasn’t the most transferable player, in terms of his suitability across many teams. But if the right players were in a first eleven with him he was a real asset. He needed pacey legs and some babysitting around him.
Harte was among the better left backs in the premier league. He was one of the better players in a team that reached the champions league semi-final. If fit, Finnan and Carr are your right backs. Could maybe shoehorn Doherty into left back - but that’s kinda the point. We’re considering how our best players might make the edges of the squad. We’d definitely get one keeper in the squad along with Given and Kiely. Maybe you pick Obafemi up top for his pace ahead of Morrison or Connolly. So you probably end up with maybe 5 squad members. A centre back, Doherty, Obafemi (or Ferguson) and a keeper and one other.
Even that squad’s young and promising players: Keane, Duff and Reid were better than our equivalents
It's clear that you're suffering from the opposite of what you state there. Looking at the past with green tinted glasses. Finnan was full back for Fulham, Kelly in and out at Leeds. They were not in the top 2 full backs in the premier league.Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_peepee
John Egan would get ahead of either Breen or Staunton. In fact I don't think either of them would make our current squad!
Keane and Duff are the only big differences really. I'd say the rest are equal enough. As I said, you'd probably pick 4 of our current lot ahead of the centre backs then. You'd pick Coleman over Finnan, Harte/Doherty is 50/50 like Kilbane/McClean but you'd probably pick Doherty ahead of Kelly in right midfield. You'd have Cullen and either Holland or Kinsella and then Keane and Duff up front. So:Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Given
Coleman Collins Egan Harte
Doherty Cullen Kinsella McClean
Keane Duff
That makes 5 2002 players v 6 current players in my opinion.
In the season leading up to the 2002 World Cup, Finnan was a key man in a Fulham side which got promoted and stayed up (finishing 13th). Kelly was "in and out" of a team that finished fifth in the league. Steve Staunton was a virtual ever present for an Aston Villa team which finished eighth.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
John Egan, a guy I rate, has largely spent his peak years fighting relegation or fighting for promotion. In that sense I don't think his story is much different than Gary Breen's, so I suppose they're a comparable but wouldn't put one miles ahead of the other.
Finnan was the full back in the 2001/02 team of the season - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E...#Annual_awardsQuote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Was gonna say the same thing.
Finnan was the premier league right back of the season in 01/02 (having won the same award in the championship the season before)
It was that form that had him sign for Liverpool a season later where he went on to get 200 games for Liverpool and win the champions league. You’re not convincing me that a 34 year old Seamus Coleman or any Seamus Coleman for that matter would play ahead of him.
Given was the keeper of the season and Roy was centre midfield in that team. We had 3 of the best players in the league in our squad. That’s an expression of the quality.
Even David Connolly, who we were debating about replacing, he scored 18 league goals just before the World Cup and 24 just after. We probably haven’t had a 20 goal a season striker in the championship since Shane Long did it as a 24 year old
Not objectively true in my opinion. You and I have actually gone over and back on this before. :) not expecting a different outcome!Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
https://foot.ie/threads/240390-Steph...=1#post2125755
Weirdly our last mini golden generation was the team from 1992. They were the team that got to the semi final of the u19s before being beaten by a very good Spain team.
That year produced Doherty, Christie, Egan, Duffy, Williams, Hendrick, Brady, Horgan, Hogan - along with Forrester and McCarey who received call ups without getting caps and Carruthers who was a potential star that didn’t pan out.
A collective 314 caps.
You can add up all the caps of all the players who played in 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2004 (no one capped from 2003) - and you know what it equals? 314
The reality is, those players are now 30/31, whereas they were 26-27 under Mick. So he had a group of established internationals in their prime and Kenny now has them all a few years later on.
Boomer is trying to make the point that Kenny basically had everyone Mick had except McGoldrick, plus he has a new crop of young players - but the reality is, that group from 1992, plus the likes of Coleman, McClean, Long, Whelan, Randolph etc etc - they’re all either past it or somewhat on a downward trajectory.
You’d hope that in a few years time, that Kelleher, Bazunu, Omobamidele, Collins, O’Shea, Cullen, Hodge, Knight, Obafemi, Ferguson, Parrott, Idah and Connolly are all premier league regulars and we can look back at this moment as the last moment before they all truly arrived.
But right now, the consistent quality just isn’t there. Robinson has a good year and then he regresses. Ogbene makes the breakthrough and then we can’t really use him in our system. Obafemi looks great and then he falls off a cliff at club level. It’s been 2 steps forward, 1 step back for all our players.
Sometimes you just need a player or two to change everything - add Rice and Grealish to that group and suddenly it’s a really strong Irish side. To me that suddenly becomes a side that could really compete in a way that we haven’t in 20 years.
You're missing the point. The game has changed since then. Not only is there a far wider network in scouting and signing players, South America, Asia etc but the standard of players in the UK has increased as well due to improved academies and so forth.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
So Finnan wouldn't have been getting a move to Liverpool. Staunton would be in the championship, same with Breen and others like Kinsella and Holland. But I'll get onto the Finnan point.
Ok, I called Finnan wrong! I thought it was after the World Cup where he upped it big time. So we'll have Finnan in instead of Coleman. Over their careers though, I think it would be a tight call.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
You have to take account of the standard of the Premier League in 2002 Vs today also. John Egan is a regular at a mid table Premier league team in 2002 I would say. Today he's a player who yoyos between the top two divisions. From the current squad I'd say at least 10 would have made that 02 squad. What the 2002 squad had though was a number of standout players - Keane x 2, Duff, Finnan, Carr (I know Roy Keane and Carr didn't make the WC but they were heavily involved in qualification). Having two or three of that standard of player makes a huge difference at international level and can mask a lot of mediocrity in the rest of the team - just look at Wales 2015-2022 as a recent example. The current squad doesn't have that sprinkling of star quality, at least not yet.
It is objectively true because your point was very simplistic then and it still is. You're changing players quality based on where their club team plays. That's ridiculous. For example, Egan is on his way to get promoted, will he be a better player in a few months time because he's back in the premier league? If Collins gets relegated, he suddenly becomes a worse player? Nonsense. Kenny had practically the same squad as McCarthy but he also had numerous young players coming through. Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, O Shea, Cullen (Anderlecht move), Molumby, Knight, Idah, Obefami (makes a return). Objectively, Kenny clearly had a superior squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Another ridiculous post. Kenny was in charge and playing matches with nearly all the same players a year later. So if you're saying they were 26-27 under Mick then they were 27-28 year olds under Kenny. That is their prime! These days players prime is till they're 30! Honestly, your post is laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Finally someone talking sense. Yeah, the 02 team had those few exceptional players who raised the standard of the rest. We have to hope that some of our new crop can reach somewhere close to that level but getting into a champions league standard team is far more difficult now as you point out. Look at the money in the premier league, low ranking clubs are spending huge money and buying players globally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
That's how I'd see it alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Our current Premier League players are bad ones. Bazunu has the worst stats of any keeper in the league (bar Travers, I guess, who has played fewer games), Coleman is struggling against relegation and is sadly past his peak. Collins is also battling the drop, although I think he's a stronger performer for his team than Coleman. Doherty is a bit-part player for a good side - our highest-profile player though, if you discount Kelleher. Ferguson has played five games this season - definitely showing promise, but then so did Idah, Connolly and Parrott three years ago and look at them now. Yes, the Premier League has strengthened in 20 years, but I don't see that players who were in the team of the season or challenging for honours then would be relegation fodder now.
We've no really solid spine like Given/Dunne/Duff/Keane gave us for years, and that makes a huge difference.
And the usual caveat about having lots of young players now and you don't know what they'll be like in 4-5 years' time.
I’m comparing the squad Mick had with the one Kenny has now. If you want to say that the squad Mick had in his last game was the worst we ever had but the squad Kenny took over a few months later was suddenly much better, then fair enough. Makes no sense but fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Answer me honestly:
Seamus Coleman - past his best?
Jeff Hendrick - past his best?
Shane Duffy - past his best?
Matt Doherty - past his best?
Robbie Brady - past his best?
Glenn Whelan - past his best?
John Egan - past his best?
James McClean - past his best?
David McGoldrick - past his best?
Shane Long - past his best?
Cyrus Christie - past his best?
Darren Randolph - past his best?
The only people you could even begin to debate are Doherty and Egan. And for both them, there’s valid arguments for and against.
We have a batch of young players mostly born between 2000 and 2002 who we hope will become key for us. As they get better, the lads listed above get worse. Due to a myriad of reasons (maybe bar Collins), the young lads have struggled recently:
Bazunu - difficult first season in the premier league
Omobamidele - injuries
Parrott - struggled on loan and with injury
Idah - horrific injuries
Knight - wasting a season in league 1
Obafemi - losing momentum with the Swansea debacle
Connolly - went off the rails
Smallbone - serious injury
You’d back the majority to come good over the next few years but right now the development of the young players is lagging behind what we’re losing.
As for the other argument, Obviously the league is a better league now than it was then. But in terms of a worldwide league, 1992 would hold true much more. Wenger revolutionised everything. by 2002, clubs were already really international. Just thinking of the lads who played at that World Cup, Liverpool signed Diouf and Diao from Senegal during the World Cup, Folran was at United, along with Veron. Lucas Radabe was captain of South Africa and Leeds. China’s best player Sun jihai was playing for city, who also had Costa Rica’s Paulo Wanchope there. A handful of USA players were playing there at the time. The African cup of nations champions, Cameroon, the team we played against had Lauren a key Arsenal player, along with Mettomo, Suffo, Mboma, and guys like Song who had already been to Liverpool and left. Nigeria had Kanu, Okocha and West. That’s just some of the non-EU lads. Overall the premier league was the most represented league at the World Cup…
I'm not going to quote the long post as it's mostly waffle. You said Mick had players in their prime, those players were 27/28 year olds when Kenny took over and still in their prime according to you. The reason I say that Kenny's squad was better was because of the long list of players who emerged. I've already listed some of them. Would you like me to give you a full list?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
It's a pity that this thread has been hijacked by the ultra sensitive pro Kenny faction, I thought it was interesting to compare squads from the past and present.
2002 was a much better squad. Matter what way you look at it
21 year old john o Shea didn't make that WC squad. He would start in this team ahead of Dara I would think