Rotherham manger comments on quality of LoI

The Rotherham manager(Matt Taylor) had a lot to say about the quality of the LoI today comparing it as the equivalent of non-league level in the English pyramid.

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Rotherham boss Matt Taylor has delivered a shocking verdict on the League of Ireland.The Millers chief was hailing his former Bohemians striker - and last weekend?s match-winning goalscorer Georgie Kelly when he stuck the boot in.
Taylor described Kelly, who now has three goals in Rotherham colours despite an injury-plagued start to his career with the English outfit, as a ?cult hero.?
But his remarks on the League of Ireland caught the eye.
?I've been here for two minutes. He's still incredibly raw,? said Taylor.?He?s come from Ireland which, with no disrespect to Irish football, is the equivalent of non-league level in the English pyramid.?

?Suddenly, he's learning his trade in the Championship. That's so difficult for him to do. I want people to be patient with him.
?There'll be times where people judge him the other way and he won't always get the plaudits. In terms of an attitude and a physicality, we've got something to work with.

?He already feels like that cult hero.

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https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soc...wsApp_AppShare

also - https://www.the42.ie/chiedozie-ogben...urce=shortlink

AND - https://www.balls.ie/football/rother...ireland-528957

I think it's fair enough. I would assume that he is basing his assessment of what Georgie has told him his training schedule was at Bohs. I wonder when the last time a team in the fourth tier in England would have been part time (or whatever we call training in the evening).

I think it does say as much about the depth of the pyramid in England as it does about the quality of our league here. These discussions pretty pointless as they often get reduced to nonsense with the people knowing the least shouting the loudest. I saw a comment on the sewer that is the 42.ie comments section saying an L1 team would never have qualified for the ECL. I think every club in the top 5 tiers in England would fancy themselves against those Maltese and Macedonians champions.

I think it's best to use actual metrics like wages, attendances or even FIFA/Football Manager stats to compare leagues or clubs.

Looking at the average attendances in the 24 conference teams (https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/n...ue/attendances) it does look like it's ahead of but at least comparable to the 19 LOI teams. The ratings in FIFA 23 seem to have them in a similar bracket.

LO desn't have 'a level' anyway. The gulf between Shamrock Rovers and Cobh is massive.

It's very difficult to gauge/compare levels, but when you look at some of the players that have been top of the pile here and subsequently struggled at even lower levels in the UK, it does give some idea of where we are. Richie Towell and Graham Burke are two examples that come to mind.

And, as said above, it may be that he's really talking about the training side of things, the semi-pro/amateur nature of a lot of clubs, the state of the grounds and so on, rather than the quality of football itself.

As an example, anybody looking in from the outside this weekend and witnessing Treaty, a team of amateurs usually playing in front of four or five hundred people in a stadium with 1 stand, 1 temp stand, and some grass banks, getting to the semi-final of the cup, might reasonably assume it's a mickey mouse league.

some of the first division clubs would get hockeyed in non league north/south. shams are probably mid table l2 , derry a bit lower. the rest in pd are NL for sure, UCD+ Harps even lower again. As for cobh bray and athlone.... I find it a bit mad that so many people go to watch games every week yet they delude themselves with the level of football they are watching to a point where they get outraged at a manager making an accurate enough comment

He's saying this in defence of Georgie? Can't fault him.

The debate about the level is pointless.

More interesting might be why struggling championship/good L1 sides aren't snapping up more of our players. Are they looking a different type of player? Unwilling to take a risk? Players lacking physicality? Something else?

And will this guys innocuous comments have an effect on Rotherham's ability to recruit from LOI?

They have been snapping up a fair few players of late in fairness - certainly more than before. Brexit narrowing their choices to an extent of course.

A lot of those who went in recent years didn't set the world alight - more misses than hits I would say - and that has to temper interest for future transfers.

The point Taylor is trying to make is that noone has teached Kelly how to develop his skills, which are the best decisions to take when playing football.

Regardless of the fact the player is 16 or 24, someone has to improve him as a footballer during a period of time,a spell at a particular club. What Taylor is saying is that nobody in Ireland has done that with Kelly.

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Originally Posted by MichaelCherrito

The point Taylor is trying to make is that noone has teached Kelly how to develop his skills, which are the best decisions to take when playing football.

Regardless of the fact the player is 16 or 24, someone has to improve him as a footballer during a period of time,a spell at a particular club. What Taylor is saying is that nobody in Ireland has done that with Kelly.

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nonsense. kelly was infinitely more effective with bohs than he was at pats. was he improved as a player by long or was he put into a team that used him correctly? maybe both? no player gets to uk anymore without being coached. to suggest kelly hasnt met a good enough coach from underage through to senior in ireland is way off the mark. collie o neil is one of the best around.

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Originally Posted by MichaelCherrito

The point Taylor is trying to make is that noone has teached Kelly how to develop his skills, which are the best decisions to take when playing football.

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I don't think he's saying that. He's saying that Kelly needs time to train up to a higher level, which the Championship undoubtedly is.

There's also an element that he's buying himself a bit of time, because with three goals in 180 competitive minutes plus five in pre-season, it's inevitable that there's going to be calls to start him, and that's the kind of stuff a manager will naturally downplay to show that he's the one who'll make that decision.

The bit about him being 'raw' suggests it's an 'unrefined player, lack of coaching' issue.

Georgie Kelly in any interview i heard him seemed a straight shooter and decent LAd.
I'd say he told hisManager he was training in the evening at Bohs and doing College during the day and that that wasnt unusual in our league.
Without knowing the context of LOI what other conclusion could the manager make than that it is amateur hour stuff if part time teams like Bohs plus Drogs plus UCD plus Harps can play in the Premier Division.
With a bit of understanding of where football sits in the society here he might appreciate we have some clubs that are worth their place in the division and train full time hours (but in the evening) the money simply isnt there to go full time.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Without knowing the context of LOI what other conclusion could the manager make than that it is amateur hour stuff if part time teams like Bohs plus Drogs plus UCD plus Harps can play in the Premier Division.
With a bit of understanding of where football sits in the society here he might appreciate we have some clubs that are worth their place in the division and train full time hours (but in the evening) the money simply isnt there to go full time.

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Why would the manager care about any of that?

Kelly is what he is, and that's what he has to work with. Not hypotheticals about what might happen if there was more money here.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't think he's saying that. He's saying that Kelly needs time to train up to a higher level, which the Championship undoubtedly is.

There's also an element that he's buying himself a bit of time, because with three goals in 180 competitive minutes plus five in pre-season, it's inevitable that there's going to be calls to start him, and that's the kind of stuff a manager will naturally downplay to show that he's the one who'll make that decision.

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Probably right about the higher level bit. Perhaps he’s calling him raw compared to the division level. It’s obvious that the Premier Division in Ireland is far from the Championship. But I perceive in his words some kind of disrespectful attack towards football in Ireland when he makes the non-league remark. Still no club in Ireland has the resources Wrexham or Notts County have.

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Originally Posted by MichaelCherrito

Perhaps he’s calling him raw compared to the division level.

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Yeah, that makes sense alright.

I don't think there's any point imputing some sort of disrespect though - it's a manager making a throwaway remark at a press conference to buy a player time (and to buy him, as a manager, time too) which is still probably more accurate than we'd like to admit.

If he was properly disrespectful to the LoI, he wouldn't be scouting for players there.

I agree, I think that's where the premier league is at

I see Taylor has started Georgie Kelly upfront tonight

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Originally Posted by yurt

I think it's fair enough. I would assume that he is basing his assessment of what Georgie has told him his training schedule was at Bohs. I wonder when the last time a team in the fourth tier in England would have been part time (or whatever we call training in the evening).

I think it does say as much about the depth of the pyramid in England as it does about the quality of our league here. These discussions pretty pointless as they often get reduced to nonsense with the people knowing the least shouting the loudest. I saw a comment on the sewer that is the 42.ie comments section saying an L1 team would never have qualified for the ECL. I think every club in the top 5 tiers in England would fancy themselves against those Maltese and Macedonians champions.

I think it's best to use actual metrics like wages, attendances or even FIFA/Football Manager stats to compare leagues or clubs.

Looking at the average attendances in the 24 conference teams (https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/n...ue/attendances) it does look like it's ahead of but at least comparable to the 19 LOI teams. The ratings in FIFA 23 seem to have them in a similar bracket.

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Hold up!

I understand it's who rovers played but what is this obsession with north macedonia and malta? Both here and in the the other thread were it was reapeated it seems to be phrased weirdly too??

I don't know what the original comments, on a different forum (WTAF?) were but yours doesn't seem like an apples-to-apples comparison?

It's one thing to say most teams in the top 5 english divisions would fancy their chances against champions of either those countries. But so would a majority of teams in our top flight.

Would a L1 team, in pre-season, starting unseeded in the first round non-champions conference qualifying make it to the groups? I think it fair to suggest the majority would struggle

Now granted it's slightly easier than the previous europa league format. And we saw epl 5 and 6 teams make hard work of qualifying there.

Well I’d certainly fancy Pats against any non league English side, and I’d say we’d give plenty in Leagues 1 and 2 a run for their money as well. How many English non league teams would go away and win in Bulgaria I wonder.

Ultimately it doesn’t really matter though. My views on Pats as a club or a team are not based on where they would sit in the English football pyramid.

Like any league comparison, there are some teams that would do well in other leagues and some that would get hammered in that same league. For example people often say Ligue 1 is a poor league in comparison with the premier league. In reality PSG/Marseille/Lyon/Lille would be comfortable in the premier league while simultaneously the bottom half French teams would probably get smashed pretty much every week if they were in the premier league.

In my opinion based on this year's LOI season, I think our top 4 would fancy their chances of beating any English League Two side and could probably stay up in League One. Meanwhile Sligo are probably bottom half League Two standard and everyone else would be somewhere in the National League levels

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Originally Posted by A N Mouse

Hold up!

I understand it's who rovers played but what is this obsession with north macedonia and malta? Both here and in the the other thread were it was reapeated it seems to be phrased weirdly too??

I don't know what the original comments, on a different forum (WTAF?) were but yours doesn't seem like an apples-to-apples comparison?

It's one thing to say most teams in the top 5 english divisions would fancy their chances against champions of either those countries. But so would a majority of teams in our top flight.

Would a L1 team, in pre-season, starting unseeded in the first round non-champions conference qualifying make it to the groups? I think it fair to suggest the majority would struggle

Now granted it's slightly easier than the previous europa league format. And we saw epl 5 and 6 teams make hard work of qualifying there.

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The original comment on the42 was essentially trying to say that since an Irish club qualified for the ECL proper that it is better quality that League 1.

I think as close to an apples to apples comparison we could get would be ask how teams (or more fairly champions) of L1/L2/Conference would get on in the champions path in Europe. If they were seeded and got a bit of luck in the draw just like SR did this year I think they'd all expect to qualify.

I agree that most English clubs might struggle if they needed to go past 3 round of qualification in the league path.

It was a wee bit arrogant from him all the same, suffice to say he will never manage a club in europe, to be fair as will many others as its only 8 or from 92 clubs over there who make europe.

That said maybe he was indirectly talking about Kelly at the time he arrived, coming from not fully pro Bohs set up, I don't think they were training every am?

Levels are per club in any case, the top 2 this season Rovers and Derry are a fair bit ahead of the pack and prob will be even more next season, then you have the best of the rest, a small mid table group and then UCD and FH, it will be the same most seasons too.

The highest standard I ever saw Dundalk at was naturally 2016, the peak prob the week we beat Macabi in EL group, then went on win the league for 3rd year running, and lost cup final in 121st (I think that was the year - either than or pens), so where did that team rank v English set up - prob top 3 in League 1.

Hard one to call, where are the top 2 this season in comparison, probably league 1 mid table but Rovers and Derry could def compete there, then the best of the rest would be league 2, then national league others, is that fair? I don't know.