Underage sides progress?

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11/05/2005, 12:39 PM
tetsujin1979

Underage sides progress?

There was an article in the Star at the weekend about the lack of young players making the step up to the senior Ireland team, compared to just a few years ago. One of the points made was that the average age of the team has risen slightly, as the pool of players stays the same and grow older together, and younger players don't come in. The only real 2 to make the step up under Kerr have been Andy Reid and Aiden McGeady. With this in mind, I dug out the program from the Ireland U-19 VS England U-19 game I attended at Tolka Park back in May of 2003, just to see how the respective squads have progressed.
Here's a list of the 2 squads, where they were then, and where they are now
It's not encouraging to be honest.

England
Luke Steele (Manchester United) - on a season long loan at Coventry, very highly rated
Lee Camp (Derby County) - just linked with a move to Villa in the close season
Justin Hoyte (Arsenal) - played several first team games this season, including Champion's League against Rosenberg and PSV
Pablo Mills (Derby County) - Regular in Derby side, in the play offs this season
Dean Leacock (Fulham) - on loan at Coventry earlier in the season, yet to play for first team this season
Andrew Davies (Middlesbrough) - on loan at QPR from January until April, sent off in his last game, played 3 of the last 4 games
Liam Ridgewell (Aston Villa) - almost ever present since the end of December at Villa
Peter Whittingham (Aston Villa) - played regularly at the start of the season, on loan at Burnley
Marcel McKie (Tottenham Hotspur) - still at Spurs, not played for the first team yet
Ciaran Donnelly (Blackburn Rovers) - Released to Blackpool in March. Scored for England in the match, actually qualifies for Ireland through mother (I think)
John Welsh (Liverpool) - played several times for the first team, including Champion's League away to Bayer Leverkusen
Steven Schumacher (Everton) - released to Bradford in July last year
Kieran Richardson (Manchester United) - on loan at West Brom, very highly rated
Lee Croft (Manchester City) - on loan at Oldham earlier in the season, regularly in first team squads now
Wayne Routledge (Crystal Palace) - playing regularly in the first team, probably staying in Premiership if Palace get relegated
Stuart Downing (Middlesbrough) - regular on the left wing for Boro, played for the England senior team
Eddie Johnson (Manchester United) - on a season long loan at Coventry, played once for the senior team in 2003/2004 League Cup game
Tommy Wright (Leicester City) - playing for the first team

Rep of Ireland
Tim Ditmer (Liverpool) - not sure of his situation, honestly can't find anything about him on the net, anyone?
Paul Murphy (Leicester City) - released by Leicester in May of last year
Kevin Deery (Derry City) - playing for first team at Derry
Tim Clancy (Millwall) - still at Millwall (as far as I can tell) although has yet to play for the seniors, was on loan at Weymouth in 2004
Pierre Ennis (Aston Villa) - released, now at Dublin City
Henry McStay (Leeds United) - released to Halifax Town in March
Kevin Cronin (Leeds United) - currently playing for Bohemians
John Fitzgerald (Blackburn Rovers) - on loan at Bury, told he has no future at Blackburn
Killian Brennan (Peterborough United) - released, now at Dublin City
Neil McCafferty (Charlton Athletic) - on loan at Rushden And Diamonds
Glenn Whelan (Manchester City) - sold to Sheffield Wednesday, playing in the League One play offs
Paul Keegan (Leeds United) - no games for the senior side
Stephen Bradley (Arsenal) - released by Arsenal, played for Dunfermline, released again, now at Drogheda United
Michael Timlin (Fulham) - played once for the senior team this season, League Cup away to Boston, still highly rated

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Nevin (Fulham reserve manager)

With his versatility, quality and work rate, I think it's only a matter of time before he forces his way into the First Team squad.

Darren Potter (Liverpool) - playing in the first team, including 3 Champion's League games, eligible for a medal if they win it?
David Bell (Rushden and Diamonds) - release in May of last year
Richie Ryan (Sunderland) - on loan at S****horpe, played twice in the Premiership in 2002/2003. Progress hampered by serious injury last season
Danny Byrne (Manchester United) - relased to Leigh RMI in February of 2004, currently at Witton Albion
Willo Flood (Manchester City) - played and scored for the first team this season, currently in reserves, still highly rated, should make the step up to first team regular next season
Stephen Elliott (Manchester City) - sold to Sunderland, performed above all expectations, made his debut for the Ireland senior team this season
Mark Yeates (Tottenham Hotspur) - still highly rated at Spurs, Jol definately rates him and performed well on loan at Swindon and Brighton in the last 2 seasons
Mark Quigley (Millwall) - made the breakthrough to the senior side in march
John Flood (Bray Wanderers) - still at Bray
Alan O'Brien (Newcastle United) - not played for the senior team, heard he got released (or told he has no future) anyone confirm?

so out of the England squad, only 2 are not contracted to their original teams, 10 have Premiership experience, 1 has played for the England seniors, all have some form of senior league football experience
Of the Ireland squad, 3 have dropped out of football altogether (as far as I can tell, welcome to be corrected on this), 10 are playing at a lower level than the club they were at the time, 1 has already played for the senior international side. Of this team it does seem likely that Whelan, Potter, Flood and Yeates will play for the senior international side.

Switzerland were also in this group, Vonlanthen (sp?) was in that squad, he's gone on to break the record for youngest player to score at a European Championship.

I think what this does tells us is that our underage sides are generally weaker than England's, and less of them will go on to play at the highest level. But those that do make it are more likely to play for the senior side at a younger age. It is a bit discouraging, but it does show how blessed we were that Keane, Duff, McPhail, Reid, Dunne, etc all came through at the same time. Will that amount of players at the level of quality ever be seen again?

The last under 19 squad (for the tournament involving Poland, Albania, Serbia & Montenegro and ourselves) was:
Darren Randolph (Charlton Athletic)
Terry Masterson (Millwall)
Paul McShane (Manchester United)
Shane McFaul (Notts County)
Darren O’Dea (Celtic)
Richard Keogh (Stoke City)
Marcus Painter (Birmingham City)
Michael Collins (Huddersfield Town).
Joey O’Brien (Bolton Wanderers)
Darren Gibson (Manchester United)
Patrick Cregg (Arsenal)
Ian Morris (Leeds United)
Stephen Foley (Aston Villa).
Jonathan Hayes (Reading)
Diarmuid O’Carroll (Celtic)
Leon Best (Southampton)
James Hand (Huddersfield Town)
Andrew Keogh (S****horpe).

I'd argue the previous team was stronger (at the time) but I'd say more of the current squad will go on to play at the highest level
11/05/2005, 1:02 PM
eirebhoy

A lot of research done there, fair play. :) It shows we are still producing midfielders but not many defenders.
11/05/2005, 2:08 PM
Stuttgart88

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I'd argue the previous team was stronger (at the time) but I'd say more of the current squad will go on to play at the highest level

Hard to tell. I have to say that I know of more of the most recent crop of players than the first list. But name recognition & quality aren't the same thing.

I hear several of the current bunch are very highly rated but we all know that that's no indication of future success.
11/05/2005, 2:46 PM
SaucyJack

"Paul Keegan (Leeds United) - no games for the senior side"

yet another who got the "new Roy Keane" tag when he arrived at Leeds.
11/05/2005, 2:47 PM
drummerboy

have to say I'm a little dissappointed with the progress of the under-age teams of late. Since Kerr has left the underage set up hardly any teams have qualified for their respective finals. Is this because of the new manager, McCaffrey, I think his name is?
11/05/2005, 3:02 PM
tetsujin1979

Another point is that the current U-21 side came through every qualifying series they were in up until the current qualifiers for the European U-21 Championships
11/05/2005, 3:04 PM
tetsujin1979

Sorry should have made this a bit clearer - the teams in brackets next to the players' names is the team they were with at the time of the qualifying series
11/05/2005, 3:24 PM
Stuttgart88

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummerboy

have to say I'm a little dissappointed with the progress of the under-age teams of late. Since Kerr has left the underage set up hardly any teams have qualified for their respective finals. Is this because of the new manager, McCaffrey, I think his name is?

Only a few months ago we were hailing our U21s as our best ever on this forum. Now they're only ahead of Cyprus in their qualifying group. Has Givens under achieved or were we just wildly optimistic? I suppose we still have 3 home games to come, but McGeady & Elliott seem to be closer to the senior squad now.
11/05/2005, 3:27 PM
drummerboy

Heard it from a good source that Stephen Kelly (Spurs) will not be playing for the U21s again.
11/05/2005, 3:47 PM
NeilMcD

As in he will be in the Senior squad from now on or what
11/05/2005, 4:09 PM
eirebhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Another point is that the current U-21 side came through every qualifying series they were in up until the current qualifiers for the European U-21 Championships

are you sure? I don't think we ever got out of an U-21 qualfying group.

Quote:

Only a few months ago we were hailing our U21s as our best ever on this forum. Now they're only ahead of Cyprus in their qualifying group. Has Givens under achieved or were we just wildly optimistic?

Givens/The team has definitely under acheived.

Henderson - Did well on loan at Notts County. reserves at Villa atm.
Foley - Just won League 1, first choice at Luton.
McCarthy - First choice at Leicester.
Kelly - First choice at Spurs.
Fitzgerald - First choice at Bury.
Willo Flood - Broke into the Spurs team for a few games.
McGeady - First teamer at Celtic. Played in the CL.
Potter - Always in the Liverpool squads for the games. Played in the CL and prem.
Whelan - First choice at Wednesday. In the playoffs for promotion to the Championship.
Elliott - First teamer at Sunderland. Won the league
Doyle - First choice at Cork.

Deeney - First choice at Notts County.
Tabb - First choice at Brentford.
Kearney - First choice at Cork.
Murphy - Just got a move to Sunderland.
Thornton - On the way out of Sunderland but still played a bit this season.
Kohlmann - Started a game for Dortmund but got injured.
Joey O'Brien - Captain of Bolton reserves. Did well at Wednesday. Still 18/19.
Mark Yeates - Can't even get into the U-21 squad. As said above, rated but Jol.

We have never had anywhere near the choice we do now. This set of players should have qualified.
11/05/2005, 4:18 PM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

are you sure? I don't think we ever got out of an U-21 qualfying group.

What I meant is that the current U-21's have qualified from every set of underage qualifiers that they have played in as a group from U-16 level, until the current European Championship qualifiers
12/05/2005, 6:46 PM
TheJamaicanP.M.

Well done Tetsujin1979

Fair play to ya Tetsujin, that's the post of the month award wrapped up. :D

I was at that game back in 2003 and came away very frustrated. We played England off the park that night. They scored with their only chance of the game. Donnelly scored the goal alright. Think he was England's captain. He qualified for Ireland through his dad. Anyway, I was frustrated we lost becaue we were much the stronger team in Tolka that night. I thought our defenders were poor but was really impressed with Stephen Bradley in midfield. Despite his slight build, he was lightning quick with the ball at his feet. I would have banked on him becoming a senior international. As a youngster in Tallaght, Alex Ferguson visited Bradley's home to convince him to play for ManU. However, Bradley chose Arsenal instead. The best player on the park that night was Paul Keegan of Leeds United - great touch and held the ball up very well. Disappointed he hasnt broken into the Leeds team this season. Neil McCafferty came on as a sub for Bradley that night. He is another player that a lot was expected of but he epitmises the problem with many Irish players - he's too small. Mark Yeates also came on as a sub and made an impact. Although he's made a few appearances for Spurs, I think the jury is still out on him. I was also impressed with Quigley of Millwall that night. All in all, I would say that the current under-19s are probably stronger that the crop from 2003. I think 3-4 of the current crop will be senior internationals in a few years. I'm expecting big things from Joey O'Brien in particular.
13/05/2005, 9:04 AM
tetsujin1979

I remember us being dominant in midfield - Flood, Whelan, Bradley and Potter - ironic then that an England midfielder scored the winner! But we couldn't get the ball to the strikers, Elliott definately played up front, but I can't think who was alongside him.
Our defence was weak, as was the keeper, but overall I didn't think we deserved to lose.

There was a bit of controversy after the game after Donnelly scored and celebrated in front of the home fans to rub it in.
18/05/2005, 9:49 AM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Kieran Richardson (Manchester United) - on loan at West Brom, very highly rated

Just called into the England squad for their joke tour of the States in June
18/05/2005, 10:11 AM
Stuttgart88

Quote:

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

We have never had anywhere near the choice we do now. This set of players should have qualified.

I agree. I'm very surprised we've done so badly so far (albeit with our home games to come). We nearly nicked a point in France but everything else has been crap. Should Givens' role be under scrutiny?
18/05/2005, 1:59 PM
Eirambler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I agree. I'm very surprised we've done so badly so far (albeit with our home games to come). We nearly nicked a point in France but everything else has been crap. Should Givens' role be under scrutiny?

It should, but Givens covers himself by saying that its not about results, its about getting players into the senior team.

By that logic he can lose every game and still be a success as long as someone like Elliott goes on to play for the seniors after playing under him, even though Elliott would obviously be good enough for the seniors regardless of whether he played under 21 or not.
30/01/2012, 4:25 PM
AlaskaFox

Tets alerted me to this post on twitter after I wrote this article earlier on GreenScene:
http://greenscene.me/2012/01/ireland...-are-they-now/
30/01/2012, 4:42 PM
Dermotron

4 pros with a scattering of semi-pro's, poor return for what seemed a talented bunch.
30/01/2012, 6:44 PM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlaskaFox

Tets alerted me to this post on twitter after I wrote this article earlier on GreenScene:
http://greenscene.me/2012/01/ireland...-are-they-now/

Pretty sure Laurence Gaughan played with Galway United in the second half of last season.
30/01/2012, 7:07 PM
AlaskaFox

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Pretty sure Laurence Gaughan played with Galway United in the second half of last season.

Indeed he did. Thanks.
30/01/2012, 7:12 PM
Yard of Pace

Interesting article. Depressing reading though. Can/should more be done to help develop these young lads? Or is it a case that this kind of poor return is par for the course??
30/01/2012, 7:32 PM
SkStu

the majority should stay at home until older, learn their trade at irish clubs or LOI clubs, then move abroad. I think we would produce more successful players that way.
30/01/2012, 8:06 PM
Yard of Pace

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkStu

the majority should stay at home until older, learn their trade at irish clubs or LOI clubs, then move abroad. I think we would produce more successful players that way.

I was actually going to say that. Particularly after the interesting cases of Sheppard, Kearns etc who went to England, came back and have now gone back to England.
30/01/2012, 8:29 PM
Charlie Darwin

I think Doyle and Long would be better examples. Although I'd say the players who trained in England and returned, like Kearns and Fahey, are more technically skilled than those who stay at home but that could as easily be the reason they're chosen to go abroad in the first place.
31/01/2012, 12:14 AM
SkStu

Fahey was a strange case of a player who decided to come home because he wanted to come home for personal reasons (homesick) and then built the self belief to try it again.

To be clear, the very best of the best will and should always go over in their teens but the amount of GOOD, SOLID players that could develop in a domestic first team and actually learn the game, finish school and do it the smart way before moving to England as a proven player or at worst a good prospect. It just makes more sense to me and i think the junior and schoolboy clubs have destroyed a lot of young players careers through their policy of farming their players overseas at 14/15/16 with a lot of dreams and little else to suggest they would cut it at that level.
31/01/2012, 10:14 AM
OMTY

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlaskaFox

Tets alerted me to this post on twitter after I wrote this article earlier on GreenScene:
http://greenscene.me/2012/01/ireland...-are-they-now/

On the Greenscene piece, Paul Honohan is part of the Cork Senior Football panel. He played underage hurling and football for Cork.
31/01/2012, 10:39 AM
AlaskaFox

Thanks, updated. I wouldn't be a big GAA follower unfortunately.