Last man standing in Israel

Think I must be the last Irish man (or woman) left in Israel from the game last Saturday. :)

Just off the flight back up to Tel Aviv from Eilat, and am absolutely raging at the treatment meted out by the security people at the airport. Had to endure constant questioning from 4 different security personal, lasting 50mins. This was done in full view of everyone else in the airport, and they had to hold the plane until the questioning was over. Questions even of such a ridiculous level as "Why didn't I learn Hebrew at school?" Errr - cuz I'm an Irish Catholic perhaps......?

And why did this happen ? Because I had the temerity to have travelled from Israel into Jordan and back into Israel again on my own. Shock horror - I must be a terrorist...! Even had to show them my match ticket, take them through the slideshow of my holiday pics from Petra, produce every receipt for everything I've done in Israel (which only made it worse, as the taxi I got in Jerusalem was driven by an Arab....).

Unbelieveable. If I was planning to blow the plane up, they'd have spotted the bomb in my baggage. In the absence of a bomb, their options are to either let me fly or not. If they didn't want me to fly - fine, hold me in Israel indefinitely and then ship me out to Guantanomo., But if they were going to let me fly - in the absence of a bomb, why the absolutely ridiculous questioning....?

Has left a very bitter taste in my mouth from my whole trip, which has been fantastic. Doubtless I'll get the same sh!t when I turn up at Ben Gurion airport tomorrow morning for my flight back home.

If that's how they treat an articulate Paddy, God knows what they put the Palestinians and their own Arabs through. And then they wonder why more poeple don't visit their country....

The airport security is a serious issue alright and it definitely does not help tourism, especially the ridiculous questioning and being passed from one person to another. They were very polite with me but it still took 1.5hrs to get through because I had an mp3 player with speaker (which I showed working). I could not really understand it as it was a charter flight going to Dublin, not really any history of Irish suicide bombers.

Any of our Isareli friends care to comment?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Think I must be the last Irish man (or woman) left in Israel from the game last Saturday. :)

Just off the flight back up to Tel Aviv from Eilat, and am absolutely raging at the treatment meted out by the security people at the airport. Had to endure constant questioning from 4 different security personal, lasting 50mins. This was done in full view of everyone else in the airport, and they had to hold the plane until the questioning was over. Questions even of such a ridiculous level as "Why didn't I learn Hebrew at school?" Errr - cuz I'm an Irish Catholic perhaps......?

And why did this happen ? Because I had the temerity to have travelled from Israel into Jordan and back into Israel again on my own. Shock horror - I must be a terrorist...! Even had to show them my match ticket, take them through the slideshow of my holiday pics from Petra, produce every receipt for everything I've done in Israel (which only made it worse, as the taxi I got in Jerusalem was driven by an Arab....).

Unbelieveable. If I was planning to blow the plane up, they'd have spotted the bomb in my baggage. In the absence of a bomb, their options are to either let me fly or not. If they didn't want me to fly - fine, hold me in Israel indefinitely and then ship me out to Guantanomo., But if they were going to let me fly - why the absolutely ridiculous questioning....?

Has left a very bitter taste in my mouth from my whole trip, which has been fantastic. Doubtless I'll get the same sh!t when I turn up at Ben Gurion airport tomorrow morning for my flight back home.

If that's how they treat an articulate Paddy, God knows what they put the Palestinians and their own Arabs through. And then they wonder why more poeple don't visit their country....

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

If that's how they treat an articulate Paddy, God knows what they put the Palestinians and their own Arabs through. And then they wonder why more poeple don't visit their country....

---

You do realize that no one is doing it JUST to annoy you, it has a purpose. Lives were lost when we allowed ourselves to be easy on people entering the country from any directions. Starting with a Japenese tourist with a violin who shot about 20 people to death in Ben Gurion airport about 30 years ago, to constant arrests of terrorists who try to enter Israel, most arrests don't get the international media's attention, but it happens. Not to mention the terrorists who already have managed to get into Israel by pretending they are sick / their wife is in labor. I know it's horrible, the way everyone have to suffer this longs checks, but what would you do? Be nice and let a terrorist enter your country? God knows they keep trying. I'd love it if it was a nice an quiet place.

All I can tell you is, that as much as it is annoying - and I KNOW it is - you're lucky to only have to suffer it on your one visit. We live with it.

It seems to me to be a perfectly resonable response by the Israeli security forces. You traveled to a semi-hotile Arab country and returned via a taxi driven by an Arab. They are living under a totally different set of rules over there. When suicide bombings are (were?) relatviely routine and you are surrounded by hostile nations it is a resonable response.

A friend of mine travelled to the game by flying into Beirut, Syria and down into Petra in Jordan. Safe to say it was an hour's interview before he was let into Israel a couple of days before the match. It was a 2 hour interview before they would let him leave the country last tuesday. The multiple passing of his bag through the x-ray machine washed out all the film in his camera of his trip.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cowboy

The airport security is a serious issue alright and it definitely does not help tourism, especially the ridiculous questioning and being passed from one person to another. They were very polite with me but it still took 1.5hrs to get through because I had an mp3 player with speaker (which I showed working). I could not really understand it as it was a charter flight going to Dublin, not really any history of Irish suicide bombers.

Any of our Isareli friends care to comment?

---

We had an attempted one albeit totally innocent. Caused a huge stir at the time back in the mid 80's.

Ever heard of Ann-Marie Murphy form Sallynoggin? Long chilling story just google it.

I left early am Sunday morning and security was no problem - 45 minutes from door to duty free shop heavy but efficient - was expecting a lot worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by soylent green

A friend of mine travelled to the game by flying into Beirut, Syria and down into Petra in Jordan. Safe to say it was an hour's interview before he was let into Israel a couple of days before the match. It was a 2 hour interview before they would let him leave the country last tuesday. The multiple passing of his bag through the x-ray machine washed out all the film in his camera of his trip.

---

That doesn't suppose to happen... sad! however, when you travel through arab countries it's obvious you're gonne be checked longer. As I said, unfortunately, we're not in a position that we can allow ourselves to take any risks, even if it's in the price of losing on tourism (which we're quite lost on, anyway, and it's not because of the security checks). When I came back from London, couple of years ago, I had to open my backpack because I had a book that I boguht in a small town in Ireland while waiting for a bus in my bag, and they wanted to make sure it was really only a book. And I'm a very innocent looking Israeli girl. The only thing I can say, again, that we have to live with it all the time. In fact, my first day in Ireland was really weird because I entered a mall in Cork and something bugged me for a few hours, until I realized no one checked me at the entrance... you get used to anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

We had an attempted one albeit totally innocent. Caused a huge stir at the time back in the mid 80's.

Ever heard of Ann-Marie Murphy form Sallynoggin? Long chilling story just google it.

---

Excellent point Gary I had forgotten about her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

We had an attempted one albeit totally innocent. Caused a huge stir at the time back in the mid 80's.

Ever heard of Ann-Marie Murphy form Sallynoggin? Long chilling story just google it.

---

Nice boyfriend.

When I was at Ben Gurion I had about a 10 minute interrogation which I found bad enough. My passport had a picture of me in school uniform which looked nothing like me. The woman kept insisting it wasn't me. I also had a copy of a hebrew newspaper and she wanted to know if I spoke Hebrew and if not why have a newspaper. but After 10 minutes she just let me go but insisted that I take nothing from anyone upto boarding the plane. Funnily I found her alarm more sincere than the treatment I normally received from Mister Airport/Port Poleeeceman back in England at the same time.

To be honest dcfcsteve, they held the plane for you. British police in the eighties here wouldn't have bothered with that. I worked with this Northern Protestant who had along with some quaint tatoos of red hands, one making an insulting sign with a reference to the pope, who also had an Irish passport. He was strip searched along with the only other Irishman on a plane to the Canaries in the seventies. The police couldn't give a f*ck about the flight but then, as was quite common, the flight was delayed, possibly due to an air traffic controlers strike in France. He told me he went into the toilet, felt inside his pocket and pulled out his stash of resin that he had been saving for the trip and had himself a spliff. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

It seems to me to be a perfectly resonable response by the Israeli security forces. You traveled to a semi-hotile Arab country and returned via a taxi driven by an Arab. They are living under a totally different set of rules over there. When suicide bombings are (were?) relatviely routine and you are surrounded by hostile nations it is a resonable response.

---

To clarify - I was taking an internal flight from Eilat (south Isarel) to Tel Aviv (middle of Isarel). I therefore didn't return in a taxi driven by a an Arab. The taxi driven by an Arab had been in Jerusalem 6 days earlier - and whilst he was an Arab he was driving a white taxi (i.e. one that allows him to work within Jerusalem itself) rather than a yellow one (i.e. a Palestinian taxi, that aren't allowed to work in the City). If he had been allowed a white taxi over a yellow one by the authorities (an important distinction that helps the security forces instantly determine who may or may not pose a risk), then he can't have been that suspect, can he....

Also - whilst it may be chock-full of Palestinian refugees, Jordan is the least hostile of Israel's neighbours, and if I'm correct was the first to sign a peace treaty with the Israeli's. This despite the fact that Israel occupies a large chunk of their land and has seen them burdened with 1m Palestinian refugees (20% of their entire population).

Back to the airport security. I totally accept the need for very tight airport security in Isarel, and I'm grateful for it as it prevents me from being a victim on the few times I have flown in and out of the country myself . But there is a level of security beyond which the safety of the state is no longer enhanced, and all that results is frustration and anger for the detainee. I would challenge any one on this site to explain to me how the security of Israel has been enhanced by me being asked why I didn't study Hebrew at school ? Or how was the safety of that flight furthered by incredulous questioning as to what an Irishman was doing living in London ? Helllloooooo - there's like 800,000 paddies in the UK - mostly in London. They simply couldn't understand why I was Irish but living in England. How did their inability to fathom that make flight EY1805 any safer on Saturday night ?

If the big issue is stopping the movement of terrorists in and out of the country, then why did I have absolutely no problems with the inland crossing into Israel from Jordan 2 days previously ? That was all smiles, a couple of rubber stamps in the passport, and a brief walk through no-man's land. Wee buns.

There is a point at which incremental increases in security stop delivering incremental increases in safety, and instead start to impact ordinary people for no apparent or justifiable reason. That is a simple fact. That point was well breached with me on Sunday.

It was been well-noted by myself both when I flew out of Stanstead a week earlier, and when I was being interrogated openly at Eilat, that it was only Gentiles who were being exposed to the full treatment. None of the people I saw ushered into the private security room at Stanstead (where, incidentally, I was asked to drop my trousers to prove that a metal zip and a love truncheon were the only offensive weapons I had down there) were either Jewish or Israeli passport holders. This was clear from their attire, their accents, their responses to questioning, and their passports - all of which I had the time to digest/observe whilst standing with my trousers down for about 5mins.

The state of Israel's airport security therefore targets Gentiles (i.e. non-Jewish people) for intensive security, which it does not likewise enforce upon Jewish people/Israeli passport holders. Some might describe that as a rascist - I just accept it as the way things are out there. However, they appear all too willing to take their security with Gentiles way beyond the point of which it can actually make any contribution to the security they are attempting to enforce, and instead generates ill will towards them. That is what I'm annoyed about.

After 50yrs you'd have thought they might have learned that they can achieve the very same airport security results they seek (and again, it appears to only be at airports) WITHOUT alienating people and making them feel like dirt....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

...None of the people I saw ushered into the private security room at Stanstead (where, incidentally, I was asked to drop my trousers to prove that a metal zip and a love truncheon were the only offensive weapons I had down there) were either Jewish or Israeli passport holders...

---

Totally understandable. All the country's enemies are Gentiles. E.g. When was the last time an Israeli Jew assasinated an Israeli Prime Minister?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Totally understandable. All the country's enemies are Gentiles. E.g. When was the last time an Israeli Jew assasinated an Israeli Prime Minister?

---

Lousy PR dont you think though mi amigo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

but After 10 minutes she just let me go but insisted that I take nothing from anyone upto boarding the plane.

---

Funny, you mention it like it's weird. It's the standard speech of security guys here at airports, we know it by heart, so we don't even wait for them to ask it anymore: "yes, I packed it alone, I had my bags with me at all times since I packed it until now, no one gave me anything, I've got nothing that looks like a knife or a weapon," etc etc. Then they ask you not to receive anything after the security check, because what's the point of a security check if not all of your things were checked?

Quote:

---

To clarify - I was taking an internal flight from Eilat (south Isarel) to Tel Aviv (middle of Isarel).

---

It doesn't matter. When I go into central bus station in Jerusalem I get my bags x-rayed and I have to go through metal detector bus. and Eilat is quite close to both borders of Jordan and Egypt, so you never know if someone managed to get something into Israel. Yes, I know it's hysterical, but it's based on our reality.

Quote:

---

Also - whilst it may be chock-full of Palestinian refugees, Jordan is the least hostile of Israel's neighbours, and if I'm correct was the first to sign a peace treaty with the Israeli's. This despite the fact that Israel occupies a large chunk of their land and has seen them burdened with 1m Palestinian refugees (20% of their entire population).

---

I'm trying not to get into politics, because it's complicated, but some historical facts: Egypt was the first to have a peace agreement with is. as for the occupied land, back in 1967, after we occupied it in a war in which all the countries around us planned to attack us, we wanted to have peace talks and return it to Jordan, but for almost 10 years all the Arab countries around us refused to negotiate with us. I'm still all for returning it back to them, and these days efforts are made towards this direction. As for the Palestinian refugees, it's one of the saddest stories here I think. Back in 1948, right after the UN acknowledged our right to have a country and divided Israel to two countries, big one for the Arabs and small one for us, the Arab leaders decided it's not good enough and opened a war against us. They told all the Palestinians to go to Jordan and come back only after the war is over because they were sure they'll manage to beat us. They didn't and those many many poor people fell for the words of their stubborn leaders and got stuck there. It's really sad because entire families were torn apart...

Quote:

---

I would challenge any one on this site to explain to me how the security of Israel has been enhanced by me being asked why I didn't study Hebrew at school ? Or how was the safety of that flight furthered by incredulous questioning as to what an Irishman was doing living in London ?

---

Actually, they're asking those questions BECAUSE the answers are so obvious. If you had different answers for those questions you would have looked suspicious to them, but they can't tell without asking. They want you to tell that you didn't learn Hebrew because you're an Irish Catholic and that there are 800,000 paddies in London, and they want to see you're all natural about it and don't get confused or whatever.

Quote:

---

If the big issue is stopping the movement of terrorists in and out of the country, then why did I have absolutely no problems with the inland crossing into Israel from Jordan 2 days previously ? That was all smiles, a couple of rubber stamps in the passport, and a brief walk through no-man's land. Wee buns.

---

Hmm, because the security checks there aren't that obvious. they monitor you all the time while you're there and scan your bags. each place employs its own methods of security, and while I KNOW how annoying some of the methods are (I'm flying a lot) I don't think there's a reason to get so angry about it. Just know how it is and don't let THAT be the thing to ruin a nice experience for you. No one is doing anything on purpose, they're just doing their jobs.

Quote:

---

None of the people I saw ushered into the private security room at Stanstead (where, incidentally, I was asked to drop my trousers to prove that a metal zip and a love truncheon were the only offensive weapons I had down there) were either Jewish or Israeli passport holders.

---

When I was in Stanstead I had to go through the entire check, including taking clothes and shoes off, and I'm an Israeli passport holder.

Quote:

---

The state of Israel's airport security therefore targets Gentiles (i.e. non-Jewish people) for intensive security

---

Only in the last year there have been a few arrests of European citizens (I remember a Dutch, a Dane and an Irish one, actually) who have been working for terror organizations and tried to enter Israel. That's why we're so sensitive about anyone who enters Israel. Basically, people with Israeli passports aren't interrogated so much because we APPEAR in a database, and any Israeli passport holder who was suspected in such activity will be recognized upon entering or leaving the country.

Quote:

---

After 50yrs you'd have thought they might have learned that they can achieve the very same airport security results they seek (and again, it appears to only be at airports) WITHOUT alienating people and making them feel like dirt....

---

You're taking it way too personal. I know it feels awful, and I'm always sorry for friends of mine who get from abroad and have to go through some of those things, and I agree that sometimes the people there CAN be nicer, but it's an hard and important job that they are doing, and I don't mind one person less to smile at me if it means no terrorist is going to blow up in front of me. I'm talking from the heart here, I live in a neighborhood in Jerusalem where we've had over 10 suicide bombers in the last few years, only here, not even talking about the rest of the city. My favorite hangouts were blown up at least once. the cafeteria in my university was blown up too, 8 people died and many friends of mine were injured. Terrorists killed 25 people in a passover dinner at a hotel a few years ago, we were nearby at my grandma's house and all of our windows got broken.
So, you see, all those routines, it's something we've acquired from long and bloody history of a fight that sadly never really ends. I go through security checks every day, every place, my bags get scanned when I enter university, workplace, bus station, anywhere. It's annoying and security people aren't always nice - it's an high risk job, low payment, long hours and it's very very hard, but it's a must here and I accept it. I agree that there might be ways to improve some of it, but basically you gotta take it in the right proportion. No one's doing it to annoy you. Quite the opposite.

Oh, that was long, but I guess I'm a bit sensitive about this subject, and from obvious reasons. :)

Quote:

---

Totally understandable. All the country's enemies are Gentiles. E.g. When was the last time an Israeli Jew assasinated an Israeli Prime Minister?

---

Oh, don't even get me started on the inner-Israeli arguments! it will never end! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Totally understandable. All the country's enemies are Gentiles. E.g. When was the last time an Israeli Jew assasinated an Israeli Prime Minister?

---

Errr - try 1995 ? Yitzhak Rabin - assassinated by a right-wing extremist Jewish student.

Care to tell me the last time a Gentile assassinated an Israeli Prime Minister ? I'll give you a clue - it's happened less than once.....

That's a frighteningly firm grasp on the Middle Eastern situation you have there Lopez :rolleyes: Fancy trying out for Irish Ambassador some time.....? :D

Not surprised to hear this kind of thing at all. This is a government that shoots children for throwing stones and demolishes people's houses whenever they feel like it on the most spurious of grounds. Just count yourself lucky you're irish, they'd probably have shot you otherwise :rolleyes:

well if most of my race was wiped out 60 years ago while the rest of the world did f**k all to help... i'd do whatever i liked too!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Éanna

Not surprised to hear this kind of thing at all. This is a government that shoots children for throwing stones and demolishes people's houses whenever they feel like it on the most spurious of grounds. Just count yourself lucky you're irish, they'd probably have shot you otherwise :rolleyes:

---

You're right, they haven't been invaded by seven countries on three seperate occassions. If they just learned how to love they would just be left in peace and they wouldn't be exterminated. And sure the Palestinians are an oppressed people and aren't being used as pawns by their Arab neighbours at all....

There are two sides to every story.

I travelled to TA the week before the match on an EL Al flight via Heathrow. There were three of us, me, an English colleague and another English guy who lives in Florida who flys frequestly in the US. Myself and my English colleague were given the whole thrid degree treatment at Heathrow (twice xrayed our bags, loads of questioning, trousers down and shoes off etc) and also on the way back in Ben Gurion Airport. The other guy got none of this over and above normal airport security. Pretty sure it must be because he is on some US security data base from tavelling so much in the USA and this must be shared with the Israelies. Having said that I don't have a problem with the security measures. I'd be more worried getting on the plane if they didn't do it.

All of this debate simply comes back to a point raised in a previous related thread 'What has all this to do with a European WC qualifying tournament?'

I still believe that Israel should not accomodated by being allowed to play in the European football zone. What would happen if all African countries boycotted Zimabwe? Would they be admitted to the European zone?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the political situation in the Middle East, Israel have no incentive to sort out their affairs while they are being accomodated and supported in many areas by Europe and the US.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Éanna

Not surprised to hear this kind of thing at all. This is a government that shoots children for throwing stones and demolishes people's houses whenever they feel like it on the most spurious of grounds. Just count yourself lucky you're irish, they'd probably have shot you otherwise :rolleyes:

---

Oh, gotta love the international media and it's very one-sided views. While this might be a little true, too, they forget to show you the terrorists who send kids with stones to be their first line of protection. Very human, too. And it only demolishes people's houses AFTER someone from that house has decided to blow himself up in the middle of a packed bus and killed 20 people. Count yourself lucky you're irish, because YOU don't have to be scared every time you go on a bus or go out to a pub. You don't have to have conversations about "where is it safer to sit in the restaurant, inside or outside, because inside the bomb will be more powerful but more chances the terrorists will manage to kill you outside," and YOU don't have to worry about the people you love every single day, every single second. And anyway, I said it once, I said it again, there are quite a few things my goverment does which I don't agree on, but I'm shocked every time to see the way the international media, which is the most unbalanced EVER, managed to get so many people to be brainwashed by their one-sided way of coverage.

And pardon me if I sound just a little bit mad, but A. what can I do, I am, and B. this is so complicated, kills me to see people think they understand it while simplfying it so much. There are strong and threatening people on both sides, exactly as there are many people on BOTH sides who just wish for peace, to know that they can bring up their children safely.

Quote:

---

I still believe that Israel should not accomodated by being allowed to play in the European football zone. What would happen if all African countries boycotted Zimabwe? Would they be admitted to the European zone?

---

Israel isn't playing in Europe just because of the other countries boycotting us. Israel is a member of many European organizations, in economy and culture as well as sports, because the mentality here, the culture, and the development in general is far more European and western than it is middle eastern. I mean, Israel is taking part of Eurovision since 1973. That's definitely not because the Arab countries are boycotting us. There are many countries which are not part of Europe and therefore don't take part in the Eurovision song contest. Israel participates it regulary even though it wouldn't really matter if we didn't, because it's not like they have it in every coninent and we can't participate in our own, and yet we participate there, why is that?

And as for your example. if it's all about sport, than even your first argument, which is wrong - about Israel permitted to play in Europe only because our neighbours boycot us - would work here: if we played in Asia, we would probably have no problems to qualify for the World Cup, because half the teams we would be drawn against will retire. this is not the way sport should be, and this is wrong, we want to qualify because we earned it, isn't that the way it goes? what would you do? force Israel to play there while it's against the values of sport? force Israel to retire, while that is against the basic values of sport too? so yes, if Zimbabwe was boycotted by all of the countries in Africa, I would let it play in another continent, because of the values of true sportsmenship (is that even the word? can't figure it out in English, the hebrew one is so much better, I hope you get my point anyway).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Errr - try 1995 ? Yitzhak Rabin - assassinated by a right-wing extremist Jewish student.

---

Sorry dcfcsteve, but I thought you would have picked up the sarcasm there with the specific reference to 'Prime Minister' rather than 'the last time an Israeli Jew blew up a plane?' Sounds like you're still recovering, hombre. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Totally understandable. All the country's enemies are Gentiles.

---

I know Claudio Gentile was a dirty fcuker, but is this not a bit harsh ?

Quote:

---

I mean, Israel is taking part of Eurovision since 1973

---

You've won me over now. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shae_B2D

I would let it play in another continent, because of the values of true sportsmenship (is that even the word? can't figure it out in English, the hebrew one is so much better, I hope you get my point anyway).

---

Your translation is fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brine3

You've won me over now. ;)

---

except for a totally wrong construction of my sentence there.
(and I'm kinda scared to ask).

Quote:

---

Your translation is fine.

---

Does that mean you actually READ all the way down and survived??

Shae B2D,

There's too much in your last big post to respond to it all bit by bit.

Unless I'm reading your sentiments incorrectly, you seem to be asserting the view of 'whatever Isarel does to ensure its security is fine by me, as long as it stops/reduces terrorist activities'.

At first sight this seems a perfectly reaosnable posiiton to take. However, if this is the case then I think you've also missed the point of my previous posts.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that the state of Israel should be more lax in its security operations. But my point is that there is a level of security beyond which safety is no longer improved by any significant degree, and the only outcome is therefore disruption and alienation amongst those the security is directed against. As I said previously, I believe this line was crossed with me on my flight on Saturday.

Your responses seem to suggest that if I had been asked to stand on my head and drink a pint of water whilst singing 'La Bamba' at Eilat airport then that would've been fine, as I'm not to know the deeper reasons why they certain questions or actions - all I need to know is that tight security is needed to protect Israel, so anything they request is fair. But that extreme examples shows that not everything the security ask or do may necessarily have an impact upon the level of security.

You could even argue that, by pushing the level of security/questioning beyond the point at which it no longer makes any contribution to safety, the security of Israel is actually being jeopardised. Individuals are actually being alienated and becoming embittered by Israel's actions (as a number of people on this site have personally commented). This therefore makes them less likely to cooperate openly and fully with the authorities at airports etc (which was my attitude 10hrs later at Ben Gurion airport), which actually reduces the effectiveness of the security operations. It can therefore be counter-productive for the nation's security. It also increases international ill-will towards Israel, which creates seeds in which activities prejudicial to the country's security can grow. There are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people every year flying in and out of Israel who, like me, leave the country feeling they've been treated badly by security - either as an individual or as a Gentile. That's many thousands of people walking around who have had a direct and negative experience with the authorities of your state, who to varying degrees will now harbour a grudge against Isareli authorities. That has obvious dangers. You can say we shouldn't take it personally, but clearly from this thread lots of people do.

And I still stand by my observations that the level of interrogation Gentiles recieve by far surpasses that for Jews - regardless of whether that is due to superior intelligence on them or not, it still looks suspect.

You can choose to ignore what I'm saying here, but the above are simple facts. Israeli security has the serious potential to create greater problems for your country on the occassions when it seemingly or actually crosses the line of reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shae_B2D

except for a totally wrong construction

---

And could that construction be a WALL built by a subsidary of an Irish publicly quoted company?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

You can choose to ignore what I'm saying here, but the above are simple facts. Israeli security has the serious potential to create greater problems for your country on the occassions when it seemingly or actually crosses the line of reason.

---

I'm, by no means, try to ignore what you say. I think that being an Israeli obviousely gives me a different opinion on that, for the simple reason that I'm so used to live with that security, I can't really imagine how it feels for someone who hasn't been living it for his entire life. I do agree that to some extent, the security measures sometime go overboard, but I have to be honest and admit I don't really know where to draw the line. You said that by my point of view, since it's for security, everything they do is fine by me. Well, it's not, but to tell you the truth? there are many things there that I find being in a "Gray" zone. That said, I understand your frustration completly, it probably won't come as a shock to you to find out that you're not the first person I've heard saying such things, and I know that usually means that a problem exists, and I know it does.

But as it happens, finding the perfect solution is hard, usually impossible, and in that case, I don't think you can just write down the answer to make it work. I don't work in security, so even as an Israeli I don't have the whole picture, which makes it hard for me to entirely be mad at that, at least not until I hear the entire reasoning behind such behavior. When I hear stories like yours it makes me mad, but I can't pick a side, really. I see the reason in the behavior of both sides, the security checks as well as the feelings of the guests being mistreated. I still think that you're taking it too personally, but at the same time I understand that only a person who really lives here can understand it's not and I don't expect our guests to understand that. I'm caught in the middle here, where would you draw the line? because, for example, I don't find nothing wrong in the questions you were asked, annoying as they were, it was just questions. On the other hand, while having to take your clothes off is very invasive, I've been through it too and I AM a jew, which contradicts your "jews aren't treated that way."

oh, and btw, while you're on that subject: I've got an American passport, my mom's got an Israeli one. Every time we enter a foreign country I get to walk through all the checks smoothly and quickly, while my mom is always being held up, checked, etc. I guess it works both ways, and it works that way anywhere, even with places less secured than ours.

I appreciate the fact you bothered to answer my big post. many people wouldn't. thank you.

i had no problem really with the lengthy security I just wanted to make it known that with all the effort made by the municipality and people in general to welcome us this had a negative effect. I would definitely go back again but i think others may think twice, especially regular tourists whom you are trying to attract and i think this should be a consideration and some thought should be given by the authorities to this subject.

We have a saying here " Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater "

An interesting debate none the less