Is it time for a rethink?

I've been talking to another Limerick fan this morning about that disgraceful smear on the club last night and it's got me thinking.

With Pat O'Sullivan spending less and less and the new guy spending more and more is it time for a rethink of what the club is at as a club?

At the moment away from the senior team we have going on at any one time:

The hug a hoody campaign

The cuddle a criminal campaign

Mongolian exchange programme

A youth system that has been hugely expensive and a massive failure

The kitman saga

That's off the top of my head. Then with the senior team so far this year you've had:

The Russell saga

The replacing Russell epic

The local lads have to play no matter how bad they are because they are "local" and/or "young" rule

I could go on a rant but meh.

In short, do people think that if the club wants to have a successful senior team they should concentrate on having a successful senior team?

Or do people think the club should continue to be a giant pie that everyone can have a little finger in?

Surely there's a better balance to be found than where we are at at the moment.

My big concern is for a football club how many football people are involved? Do we have anyone at a high level in the club who you would really really trust on football matters? The fact they allowed themselves be spoofed to death by Stuart Tayloe and then kept Russell to put together this joke of a squad we have at the minute when 90% of people knew the chap hadn't a clue is worrying.

Over 1000 people have witnessed this team lose away to near bottom of the table harps 3 1, bottom of the table sligo 3 0 and now bottom of the table Galway 3 1. The cost for these fans in supporting this team and contributing financially to these impoverished areas is massive.

I'm all for building a club which plays a big role in the community but that starts with a successful first team and everything flows from there. The current management seems to think it's the other way round. There is a steady core of about 1200 supporters but it could be so much more with a successful team. Even the away support is excellent.
My worry is that core will start to decrease if current form persists. 3 home wins is a shocking return. Not sure how many more times these supporters will continue to turn up if the dirge of last night continues.
Personally I'm really worried the direction the club is taking.

The chairman is indeed a fine chap,however he has been listening to too many and the wrong, generals, too many ups and downs,managers,crusades etc...the youth system has been a costly failure.some heads need rolling before other issues take it all down.

The core of 1200 would be smaller without the youth system to be honest. Our biggest problem is wasting money on average senior players and making daft managerial decisions.

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Originally Posted by fieldofmarkets

The core of 1200 would be smaller without the youth system to be honest. Our biggest problem is wasting money on average senior players and making daft managerial decisions.

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Agree fully with this. Investing in the senior team only and hoping everything flows from that is the sure way to run the club out of existence. The first team do of course set the tone for the whole club and last night was unacceptable but the over-reaction is completely OTT.

Shamrock Rovers have lost 7 league matches away all season off a budget that's a multiple of ours yet they're convinced that they're on the right track and building sustainably for the future.

How can going to the bottom of the table team and getting turned over not cause a. Massive backlash. A lot of people are spending good money following this team around the country to watch that rubbish. And to add insult to injury only Clarke and Lee Jay came over to acknowledge us, the rest skulked off to the dressing room. This team need to get their heads out of their asses and start putting in performances that are worthy of the Jersey. I really think some of them are just collecting paychecks.

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Originally Posted by Centenary

Agree fully with this. Investing in the senior team only and hoping everything flows from that is the sure way to run the club out of existence. The first team do of course set the tone for the whole club and last night was unacceptable but the over-reaction is completely OTT.

Shamrock Rovers have lost 7 league matches away all season off a budget that's a multiple of ours yet they're convinced that they're on the right track and building sustainably for the future.

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They are also much much better set up off the field then us so it is in no way a similar comparison. Where did anyone say invest in the senior team only btw? In fact the only person that mentioned it flowing from the first team said the exact opposite.

Why do ye think the core would be smaller without the youth system btw? And by how much? And will the core now be smaller since a load of kids have been thrown to the curb by the academy?

You'd be surprised how many underage kids and their parents are going to games. Those teams are actually creating fans.

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Originally Posted by fieldofmarkets

You'd be surprised how many underage kids and their parents are going to games. Those teams are actually creating fans.

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That is fair i suppose but honest question you think the culling of kids teams will hit that?

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Originally Posted by bluewhitearmy

That is fair i suppose but honest question you think the culling of kids teams will hit that?

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Is there a big cull going on so ?

I expect as kids get older there has to be some of that, very important to be sensitive and appropriate or it could effect it for sure. Of course every year there is a new group that comes in so as long as we hold onto a fair number it will keep growing the senior team fanbase slowly over time.

Not aware of a specific cull tbh

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Originally Posted by fieldofmarkets

Not aware of a specific cull tbh

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Have they not pulled out entire teams at certain age groups?

Hadn't heard that. What age groups?

Dont anyone hear believe that funds are being taken from underage and being given to senior. The truth is the underage is self funding (parents)
Limerick have pulled the 14/15 and 16s from the local leagues as they no longer need them as the 15s national league is starting.
Again, there are no cuts financially to the underage as there was no financial supports given to underage.

Don't be talking crap lads. Having an underage structure is one of the best things the club has ever done. More players, more parents, more volunteers. What do ye want a return of the bad old days of 15 senior players and two or three volunteeers

Through countless managers, complete changes in playing staff, different owners and so on.... we have always failed when it comes to the big games in front of big crowds. I honestly can't understand it but we always bottle it in big games or games we should be winning comfortably. It happened in Hogan Park, Jackman Park and now back in the Markets Field.

As for underage, isn't it basically a seperate entity to the senior team when it comes to funding? It's not having any affect on the senior team and if anything it has brought a lot of new fans. The stand would be pretty much empty without a lot of the new families that have started supporting the club.

The under 15's, 17's and 19's is where the major costs would come at underage and they are compulsory teams so nothing the club can do there.

No doubt MacDonald needs to put his stamp on the squad before he can be judged but he also needs players there to bring in before he can start getting rid of players left right and centre.

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Originally Posted by LFC Blue

Don't be talking crap lads. Having an underage structure is one of the best things the club has ever done. More players, more parents, more volunteers. What do ye want a return of the bad old days of 15 senior players and two or three volunteeers

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Who said we shouldn't have an underage structure?

Talk of the underage is a deflection tactic by some

To be honest, if the club is doing stuff that is an attempt to help the wider community, even if that has no real benefit to Limerick FC, then so be it. I can see why it appeals to the people in charge.

I don't think our current frailty is really a result of that kind of activity anyway. We have a squad that is limited, and a set of players that have no steel about them...but would any of that change of there was a 'rethink' of the club's ethos or whatever? I don't think so. Sure, those activities may take money away from the first team, but I think our issue is money badly spent, more than not having enough.

We have a new manager who will be hoping to bring in new players. With luck, our team will be a lot more battle-hardened by the end of the transfer window, and our manager will be more attuned to the qualities of the players he has at his disposal.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

To be honest, if the club is doing stuff that is an attempt to help the wider community, even if that has no real benefit to Limerick FC, then so be it. I can see why it appeals to the people in charge.

I don't think our current frailty is really a result of that kind of activity anyway. We have a squad that is limited, and a set of players that have no steel about them...but would any of that change of there was a 'rethink' of the club's ethos or whatever? I don't think so. Sure, those activities may take money away from the first team, but I think our issue is money badly spent, more than not having enough.

We have a new manager who will be hoping to bring in new players. With luck, our team will be a lot more battle-hardened by the end of the transfer window, and our manager will be more attuned to the qualities of the players he has at his disposal.

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I could be wrong but more than a money thing I think LTID meant he would be a lot happier if the people in charge of the club concentrated more on the senior team as in actually looking at what is happening with it and taking action rather than spend more money on it or less on community projects. For example you mention the "squad that is limited, and a set of players that have no steel about them" well that squad is how it is because the previous manager who the dogs on the street knew couldn't sign players was kept in charge for flimsy reasons at best and then we had the club realise months after everyone else that he couldn't sign players so they had to go and throw it together. Its things like this where they seem to cop things months after everyone else while concentrating on nonsense that bothers people I think.

It just seems to always be wasted money in the wrong places with us like nobody is saying we shouldn't have an underage set up but supposedly millions have been spent on it and what have we got in return? How many players have come through the system? How many are coming through with a buzz about them now? Would some of this huge money spent on that not have been better off doing something with Bruff? Has anything at all happened out in Bruff? Its just missed opportunity after missed opportunity and I can see why people are getting sick of it.

But what else can you do apart from choose a manager and have the manager sign players?

Do you mean that, if the people in charge had been more focused on the senior team, they'd have chosen a better manager...then I can see what you mean, but tbh, that's probably a case of them not being able to evaluate a manager, more than just being distracted by other things.

On the money spent on youth, again, I disagree to an extent.

Now, maybe people like the idea of cutting down on youth as much as possible to have more money for the senior team - that's fair enough. Money shouldn't be wasted, anywhere. But I don't think it's as simple as saying that we should evaluate the youth system based on the quality of player that emerges, and that if no good players are coming through, then it's been a waste of time. Is the youth set-up well run, and is money that is spent on it being spent wisely? If not, then maybe it's a question of waste, rather than the youth setup itself. But youth teams are naturally going to have periods when no good players come through. Everything could be set up just right, and still not get any reward.

But again, it's a question of priorities. What might have happened in Bruff, for example? And if we'd spent the money on that instead, and some local player had been snapped up by another LOI team/UK team rather than coming through our youth sustem, would we be saying that we'd missed an opportunity there?

I suppose the key question is deciding what are the things that the club really needs, and in what order. We are never going to get everybody to agree on that.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

But what else can you do apart from choose a manager and have the manager sign players?

Do you mean that, if the people in charge had been more focused on the senior team, they'd have chosen a better manager...then I can see what you mean, but tbh, that's probably a case of them not being able to evaluate a manager, more than just being distracted by other things.

On the money spent on youth, again, I disagree to an extent.

Now, maybe people like the idea of cutting down on youth as much as possible to have more money for the senior team - that's fair enough. Money shouldn't be wasted, anywhere. But I don't think it's as simple as saying that we should evaluate the youth system based on the quality of player that emerges, and that if no good players are coming through, then it's been a waste of time. Is the youth set-up well run, and is money that is spent on it being spent wisely? If not, then maybe it's a question of waste, rather than the youth setup itself. But youth teams are naturally going to have periods when no good players come through. Everything could be set up just right, and still not get any reward.

But again, it's a question of priorities. What might have happened in Bruff, for example? And if we'd spent the money on that instead, and some local player had been snapped up by another LOI team/UK team rather than coming through our youth sustem, would we be saying that we'd missed an opportunity there?

I suppose the key question is deciding what are the things that the club really needs, and in what order. We are never going to get everybody to agree on that.

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On the first question imo they should never have hired the manager in the first place but thats another story what they could have done this year is not keep that manager when he had proven he wasn't up for the job. Russell was hired supposedly because of how great he was going to be for bringing through people from the youth set up as it turned out 1. We had nobody really good enough to bring through 2. He had absolutely no interest in working with them anyway. And I do mean that had they been more focused on the first team then they would have sacked the manager when it was clear he had no clue. Like you say what more could they do then choose a manager and have him sign players but the manager at the time didn't/couldn't sign players really and I heard loads upon loads of people bring this up before it all came to a head the only ones who didn't see it were the decision makers. As you say though that could be just because they don't know how to evaluate it rather than being distracted but I can see how people can think it is a bit of the distraction thing too tbh. For me personally I don't care which it was I just know either way it wasn't good for the club.

On the whole youth system side of things too when I talk about it and I think its the same for LTID we don't mean the academy which funds itself at this point I think we mean the club funded age groups like soon to be 15s, 17s and 19s I believe. And I most definitely believe the 17s and 19s should be judged on what comes through to the first team it is to me anyway the entire point of them. I am in no way saying cut back as much as possible either but Pat has said time and time again that he has spent millions on the youth set up my question is on what? The entire youth set up has in no way been a waste of time because as others have pointed out it has brought more fans and families to the club but if we are still here in 2 or 3 years time and nobody has come through then it has been a failure in my view. The one person who did actually make it in to first team from it didn't even really make it through the system and force his way in Paudie was thrown in cos we had nobody else at the time and even his exit went very badly.

The Bruff thing if it was done properly would actually have saved the club a ton of money on training costs and the costs of having to pay for pitches for the underage teams to play games on so why that wasn't prioritised more I don't know but there may be reasons we don't know about there.

I think there are just a lot of little things that are building up for the people that know about them and eventually they get a bit sick of it like LTID has. I would never wanna just slate the club completely cos I have seen how hard some of the people involved work and how good some of them are at what they do but then there are definitely others hanging on that offer nothing or are not good enough at what they are there to do. Tbh though I am just trying to make sense of what I think are annoying others most of it I couldn't really care less about yes I want the club to be strong as possible and yes some of the things I find a bit stupid but if the first team is really what I care about so its only the decisions that hurt that which really bother me.

Certainly nothing wrong with club doing an evaluation of what it is spending money on and what it is getting back for it, but as people have said, from there the club would need to decide, clearly, what it is it actually wants for its investment. With the Youth, if it's "Players for the first team/players to export to England" then you can't say its worth it, but there are less fiscal benefits to the youth set-up, in terms of community engagement, creating a young fanbase, etc. Same with the other programs, like the aforementioned Mongolian link-ins and prison stuff. I'm not even sure how much that stuff costs, but the club would need to decide if helping convicted criminals retain fitness and maybe helping with rehab is a good use of their time and money, when there really isn't any direct tangible result for the club (and does the Mongolian thing cost us anything?). On a purely personal level, I actually like that the club does such things, but if the purse strings ever needed to be tightened then it should absolutely be one of the first things considered.

POS could cut everything else to the quick and pour what is left into the senior team, but Limerick's general haplessness with transfers - that pre-dates Russell if we're being honest, though it was at its worst under him - would see it all squandered as things stand. If we're talking re-thinks and re-appraisals, how the club leadership and squad management go about transfer business should be at the top of the list, regardless of who the names actually are.

A smear indeed, and not helped by the internal war being waged. It is indeed time for a change, but it must be a clean sweep - We are no better off than the day we appointed Stuart Taylor and have learned nothing from it. We have a gaping deficit of football intelligence running right through the club for years and keep making the same mistakes. Kenny, Fenlon, Barraclough etc were all interested in the Limerick job at various stages and we opted for Taylor, Russell, almost Nugent and then McDonald as the decision makers opted for the default position ... Get someone from England ! First thing we need is to recognize what we are bad at
1.Appointing managers - We are dreadful at it. How about forming an experienced football panel made up of people who know the game and pay them a consultants fee or appoint a director of football (ie) someone like Brian Kerr who knows the game and may not want to manage full time but who has in depth knowledge of the game and the people in it.
2. Provide some clarity - Limerick supporters have to be the most under informed fans in the globe, it's like the Kremlin. From the Markets field being open on time (the dogs in the road knew it wasn't going to be), fabrication of discussions with potential managers that didn't happen and alliances with every organisation known to man. Give it a miss !! And on top of that we have the latest boardroom saga with people at the wheel positioning themselves to welcome the new "He who might be King"
3. The board - Can we honestly believe that we have a fully functioning board, one that has the balls to raise unpalatable or contentious issues.... It's standard fair and a requirement everywhere else you know. Did anyone ever do a cost comparison to other clubs to quantify what have we actually achieved in the last six years ? If JP hadn't financed the MF what would we have to show for all that expenditure.... Hardly inspiring for any new investor.... .