Shamrock Rovers Investment

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/socc...medium=twitter

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“It” is a €1.5 million investment, in the form of an interest free loan, that will be used to dramatically upgrade the football facilities at Cement Roadstone’s Sports and Social Club at Kingswood, a few minutes’ drive from the club’s Tallaght stadium and so provide the basis for a “more sustainable” future.

With work on a full size artificial pitch and improved grass pitches set to get under way in the coming weeks and a third stand expected to be built in Tallaght next year, the club’s infrastructure is, partly due to the support of Roadstone and South Dublin County Council, on course to be the best in the country, at least until Dundalk get around to spending some of their new found wealth. As Friday’s game only served to highlight, though, the first team is nowhere close to where the club’s fans feel entitled to expect and Wilson, whose many meetings this week included one at what will be the Rovers academy to brief them, insists that that too is high on the agenda for the reformed board.

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Looks positive. Not sure a loan counts as investment though.

Really exciting news for Rovers if monies is invested correctly

Was at the meeting last night . Really positive stuff and the pipeline of kids coming through looks strong. Board were pretty straight with every body. Great crowd and the facilities for the academy will be fantastic

First team will be training there as well when builders finish.

Would it have been a better move by Wilson and Board to have given Stephen Kenny more time a few year back. A more realistic plan than a modern version of the Kilcoyne/Giles project at Milltown.

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Originally Posted by wonder88

Would it have been a better move by Wilson and Board to have given Stephen Kenny more time a few year back. A more realistic plan than a modern version of the Kilcoyne/Giles project at Milltown.

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Managers come and go. Kenny will leave dundalk of his own accord or be fired at some point in the future. The structure of the club and the concentration on the academy is more important then the first team in the shot run.

How long do they have before they have to pay the loan back?

It's nice to see some investment in infrastructure.

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Originally Posted by Nah Nah Nah Nah

How long do they have before they have to pay the loan back?

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That's a resonable question, though I suspect an interest free loan is probably coming from a benefactor and so on generous terms.

Will these new facilities provide an income stream for the club? That would be arguably more useful than the footballing infrastructure.

Isn't this old news?

I thought it was announced a few months back.

We were discussing this and the implications well before the summer.

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Originally Posted by El-Pietro

We were discussing this and the implications well before the summer.

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That's what I thought as well or is this a new effort ?

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Originally Posted by John83

That's a resonable question, though I suspect an interest free loan is probably coming from a benefactor and so on generous terms.

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Even interest free its still a loan that needs to be paid. When you think that they were spending the European money in the last few years and were still inheriting a debt I believe season after season too. They will now have a Loan, no Euro money from before, inherited debt and crowds are down!?? Could be lean times in Tallaght.

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Originally Posted by redobit

Even interest free its still a loan that needs to be paid. When you think that they were spending the European money in the last few years and were still inheriting a debt I believe season after season too. They will now have a Loan, no Euro money from before, inherited debt and crowds are down!?? Could be lean times in Tallaght.

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The facts are as follows: €1.5m interest free loan over 10 years. If at the end of the term loan not repaid then Ray Wilson takes 50% ownership of Rovers, or put it another way he's putting up €1.5m on the basis of collateral of 50% of nothing.

So either he'll ensure Rovers are successful and he'll get his money back or will fail and lose and is left with 50% of nothing.

This is us a fantastic deal for Rovers and more importantly RW isn't the type of guy that ever fails- he's already got his nominee in as CEO and he also has 5 of his nominees elected to the board of 9.

So time will tell but this is a very positive move as it guarantees major cash injection and has also radically changed both the make of the board and the day to day running/control of the club

There is no doubt that the day to day running of Rovers had to change! It on the surface is keeping to the members model but if a guy 'invests €1.5m installs his own CEO and has a majority of the board then the members models is there is but a token gesture to the supporters for Rovers new board and Wilson as their chief. He chooses not to prioritise the repayment of the loan and he in due course get a 50% stake in Shamrock Rovers FC. 50% of nothing is an interesting spin on the terms of repayment. Unless you really believe that Shamrock Rovers is nothing as opposed to owning 50% of a club, the brand, half or assets including cash assets. So say Rovers go on their own European run and take in €6m and if someone has 50% ownership and control of the board and "[COLOR=#333333]RW isn't the type of guy that ever fails" and he decides to take prizemoney to top up his wealth well It could be a shrewd investment for a loan that you will be controlling the paying back of to yourself. Of course Wilson may be an honourable guy and just want Rovers to fulfill potential..one thing is for sure is that it will be very hard to guarantee a 50% block vote to counter Wilson if it was ever needed in the best interests of Shamrock Rovers rather than the Investor.[/COLOR]

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

There is no doubt that the day to day running of Rovers had to change! It on the surface is keeping to the members model but if a guy 'invests €1.5m installs his own CEO and has a majority of the board then the members models is there is but a token gesture to the supporters for Rovers new board and Wilson as their chief. He chooses not to prioritise the repayment of the loan and he in due course get a 50% stake in Shamrock Rovers FC. 50% of nothing is an interesting spin on the terms of repayment. Unless you really believe that Shamrock Rovers is nothing as opposed to owning 50% of a club, the brand, half or assets including cash assets. So say Rovers go on their own European run and take in €6m and if someone has 50% ownership and control of the board and "[COLOR=#333333]RW isn't the type of guy that ever fails" and he decides to take prizemoney to top up his wealth well It could be a shrewd investment for a loan that you will be controlling the paying back of to yourself. Of course Wilson may be an honourable guy and just want Rovers to fulfill potential..one thing is for sure is that it will be very hard to guarantee a 50% block vote to counter Wilson if it was ever needed in the best interests of Shamrock Rovers rather than the Investor.[/COLOR]

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RayWilson is an honourable guy his bone fides our impeccable and well proven as he's the guy that stumped up €220k of his own money during the examinership and that plus the Members funds enabled the club to survive - that at the time gave him a partial ownership of the club - the money was paid back and his ownership removed.

If as you suggest we make €6m - then the club and the structure of the deal means he'd get his €1.5m back and full ownership reverts to the members- if after ten years he's still owed the €1.5m then he retains 50%- however that would also mean most likely it would be worthless in terms of asset value- also correction to my earlier post - he has 4 nominees on a 9 person board.

He may live in Australia but he and his family have been associated with Rovers for over 60 years.

His father was previously a director and Life President of the club and was the main driver behind the instigation of the 400 Club.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Looks positive. Not sure a loan counts as investment though.

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The interest on a €1.5 million loan over ten years would be quite significant so that's an investment of sorts.

Small correction to above he only has 4 of the 9 board votes that was important to the members so they still control the club.


Also it makes me laugh when people talk about Rovers blowing the European money we got about a million euros back then net AFAIK,
The money in the Europa league was a pittance compared to now.
With the money Dundalk have got at this point they should be winning the league for the next 5 years, time will tell I guess

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Small correction to above he only has 4 of the 9 board votes that was important to the members so they still control the club.


Also it makes me laugh when people talk about Rovers blowing the European money we got about a million euros back then net AFAIK,
The money in the Europa league was a pittance compared to now.
With the money Dundalk have got at this point they should be winning the league for the next 5 years, time will tell I guess

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Sorry just spotted your correction above re 4 nominees.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

The interest on a €1.5 million loan over ten years would be quite significant so that's an investment of sorts.

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Loan is interest free though isn't it? (Sorry, should have been clearer about that in earlier post)

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Loan is interest free though isn't it? (Sorry, should have been clearer about that in earlier post)

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I think he's suggesting that foregoing the interest on a ten-year loan of €1.5m represents an investment in the club. If Rovers were to get a €1.5m loan from a bank then it would cost them in excess of €1.5m.

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

RayWilson is an honourable guy his bone fides our impeccable and well proven as he's the guy that stumped up €220k of his own money during the examinership and that plus the Members funds enabled the club to survive - that at the time gave him a partial ownership of the club - the money was paid back and his ownership removed.

If as you suggest we make €6m - then the club and the structure of the deal means he'd get his €1.5m back and full ownership reverts to the members- if after ten years he's still owed the €1.5m then he retains 50%- however that would also mean most likely it would be worthless in terms of asset value- also correction to my earlier post - he has 4 nominees on a 9 person board.

He may live in Australia but he and his family have been associated with Rovers for over 60 years.

His father was previously a director and Life President of the club and was the main driver behind the instigation of the 400 Club.

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That does make a difference in terms of the members influence!

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

The facts are as follows: €1.5m interest free loan over 10 years. If at the end of the term loan not repaid then Ray Wilson takes 50% ownership of Rovers, or put it another way he's putting up €1.5m on the basis of collateral of 50% of nothing.

So either he'll ensure Rovers are successful and he'll get his money back or will fail and lose and is left with 50% of nothing.

This is us a fantastic deal for Rovers and more importantly RW isn't the type of guy that ever fails- he's already got his nominee in as CEO and he also has 5 of his nominees elected to the board of 9.

So time will tell but this is a very positive move as it guarantees major cash injection and has also radically changed both the make of the board and the day to day running/control of the club

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That may be the case but in fairness CJ my question still remains.

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Originally Posted by redobit

They will now have a Loan, no Euro money from before, inherited debt and crowds are down!?? Could be lean times in Tallaght.

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What inherited debt?

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Also it makes me laugh when people talk about Rovers blowing the European money we got about a million euros back then net AFAIK,
The money in the Europa league was a pittance compared to now.
With the money Dundalk have got at this point they should be winning the league for the next 5 years, time will tell I guess

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You're not comparing like with like. You're applying the 2016 position to the 2011 position.

Back in 2011 the money earned by Shams was also unprecedented in terms of the LOI, at that time. No other club had anything like that and I fully expected Shams to go on and dominate the league for years. Look at the position they were in - success on the field, cash in the bank, new stadium, massive new population base to exploit......................all positive.

The accounts for the succeeding years clearly show that not only was the Europa money blown but losses of over €500k were incurred up to 2014. And to add insult to injury the entire capital base has been eroded, hence the investment/bailout. Call it what you want. It doesn't disguise the fact that the club was poorly managed, both on and off the field.

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Originally Posted by ThePrisoner

You're not comparing like with like. You're applying the 2016 position to the 2011 position.

Back in 2011 the money earned by Shams was also unprecedented in terms of the LOI, at that time. No other club had anything like that and I fully expected Shams to go on and dominate the league for years. Look at the position they were in - success on the field, cash in the bank, new stadium, massive new population base to exploit......................all positive.

The accounts for the succeeding years clearly show that not only was the Europa money blown but losses of over €500k were incurred up to 2014. And to add insult to injury the entire capital base has been eroded, hence the investment/bailout. Call it what you want. It doesn't disguise the fact that the club was poorly managed, both on and off the field.

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While I appreciate your concern for Rovers finances I think the approach they have laid out in terms of infrastructure and Academy development is the way to go.
The 2011 money in relative terms was around 1 million compared to around 7 or 8 this time (depending on what you read) if you think that the playing budgets for LOI teams are 7 or 8 times higher then they were 5 years ago you are wrong. Yes they could have done better but that's sport, if Dundalk get pipped for the league by Cork this year and then lose in the first round of the Europa league next year will that make Kenny a bad manager or make Dundalk a badly managed club ? ? Not in my opinion its Sport sometimes the ball just doesn't break

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

What inherited debt?

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Have a look at the last filed accounts, 2014. The filing of the 2015 accounts is in arrears by a number of months.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

While I appreciate your concern for Rovers finances I think the approach they have laid out in terms of infrastructure and Academy development is the way to go.
The 2011 money in relative terms was around 1 million compared to around 7 or 8 this time (depending on what you read) if you think that the playing budgets for LOI teams are 7 or 8 times higher then they were 5 years ago you are wrong. Yes they could have done better but that's sport, if Dundalk get pipped for the league by Cork this year and then lose in the first round of the Europa league next year will that make Kenny a bad manager or make Dundalk a badly managed club ? ? Not in my opinion its Sport sometimes the ball just doesn't break

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I am disinterested in Shams finances. I'm just pointing out the position as stated in the accounts, available for all and sundry to read.

The Europa money was c.€1.1m at the time.

I do not think nor did I suggest that the budgets had increased by a multiple of 7 or 8. I simply pointed out that they had a lot of positives that no other club had at that time and well, the rest is history. As to what Dundalk will do, who knows?

A work colleague is a member and he says, in round figures, it's €1m for the academy and €.5m to shore up the day to day running of the club.

This has nothing to do with Stephen Kenny and Dundalk.

The club was poorly managed off the pitch - changing managers, throwing money at problems, running up losses that have now to be dealt with, not commercially exploiting the positive position from 2011........................

The club was poorly managed on the pitch - no major silverware, no European football in 2013 and 2014, a lot of poor signings, big wages......................

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Originally Posted by ThePrisoner

Back in 2011 the money earned by Shams was also unprecedented in terms of the LOI, at that time.

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It was less than the club's budget for the year, maybe the biggest UEFA payout but hardly unprecedented in an era when clubs had borrowed millions on an annual basis.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

It was less than the club's budget for the year, maybe the biggest UEFA payout but hardly unprecedented in an era when clubs had borrowed millions on an annual basis.

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Still trying to down play the position and potential you had in 2011.

Apart from Bohs, who lost the run of themselves, who else borrowed a million or more annually for a number of years?

Why would I bother trying to play it down? I'd say I'm far more aware than you of how the potential was squandered. It still doesn't change the fact that Rovers' entire windfall was the amount that Pat Dolan would have wiped his arse with a couple of years earlier. There certainly was the chance for Rovers to use the money to slowly build up a dominant position in the league, but it was also a small enough amount that it could be seriously dented by one bad season and one bad appointment.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Why would I bother trying to play it down? I'd say I'm far more aware than you of how the potential was squandered. It still doesn't change the fact that Rovers' entire windfall was the amount that Pat Dolan would have wiped his arse with a couple of years earlier. There certainly was the chance for Rovers to use the money to slowly build up a dominant position in the league, but it was also a small enough amount that it could be seriously dented by one bad season and one bad appointment.

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We'll agree to differ but your reference to Pat Dolan has just ruined my appetite.

So back to my question, apart from Bohs, who lost the run of themselves, who else borrowed a million or more annually for a number of years?

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Originally Posted by ThePrisoner

We'll agree to differ but your reference to Pat Dolan has just ruined my appetite.

So back to my question, apart from Bohs, who lost the run of themselves, who else borrowed a million or more annually for a number of years?

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Counting non-refundable loans from owners, Pats, Drogs, Shels and Cork.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Counting non-refundable loans from owners, Pats, Drogs, Shels and Cork.

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I take your point regarding Drogs & Cork. Shels I'm not sure about as they are not required to file accounts. However, as I recall it back then they were shareholder loans rather than borrowings from financial institutions. Hair splitting I know. Not really relevant now as Drogs and Cork are operating under new entities.


Pats on the other hand have sold their soul. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

It was less than the club's budget for the year, maybe the biggest UEFA payout but hardly unprecedented in an era when clubs had borrowed millions on an annual basis.

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Not a huge amount of cash but in by LOI standards an awful lot of money. The point is that it was always earmarked for the construction of the new training facility. Which the club has now just got a loan to build.

Sometimes the problem with building facilities in Ireland is that not enough use is made of some of them to justify the spend. The redeveloped Pairc Uí Choimh is likely to give a poor return. Is Dublin not well served with gyms, running tracks, astro pitches etc. What about the national sports campus, 3rd level college facilities. I know Crewe Alex did it in England for many years, but a policy of developing youth players to then sell on is difficult to achieve, very risky. Maybe a strategic plan to achieve average gates of 3,000 fans could be a better way to go.

Program yesterday talked a bit about the Roadstone development. The 3G is to be built by Christmas as phase one. Phase two will be the building of a kitchen, changing rooms, a relaxation room and a treatment room.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Program yesterday talked a bit about the Roadstone development. The 3G is to be built by Christmas as phase one. Phase two will be the building of a kitchen, changing rooms, a relaxation room and a treatment room.

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Phase three is the hiring of a full-time yoga master.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Phase three is the hiring of a full-time Jedi Master.

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Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by ger121

Fixed that for you.

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That's Phase Five after construction is completed on a spaceship hangar for mypost.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

That's Phase Five after construction is completed on a spaceship hangar for mypost.

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Totally pointless; no direct bus.