Dundalk's Riches and Euro Riches in General- Implications for the League

With Dundalk set to pocket at least €7 million euro, there are obviously concerns that this could see an already dominant team become untouchable for an extended period of time. One of the great things about our league is it's relative volatility with clubs having good spells and bad. Perhaps Dundalk will spend the windfall on the long term- ground improvements and youth development etc, but even then they should be able to have a relatively huge budget for years to come. Obviously Shamrock Rovers had a windfall and it didn't lead to dominance- but the figures involved now are vastly bigger.

Even without the pot of gold Dundalk have made- the rewards from being in Europe are now so great there may be a danger of an elite forming at the top of the league that is very difficult to break into without the backing of a wealthy owner- something that doesn't always turn out great.

Is there a case to be made for half of all Euro monies to go into a league-wide fund ring fenced for long term projects?

Discuss the issues.

Dundalk will use the proceeds to invest in badly needed infrastructure. The prize money will give them an advantage when competing with other clubs for players but Stephen Kenny likes to work with a small squad so Dundalk can't sign everyone. I expect Dundalk to keep the current squad together and add one or two players for next year.

Other successful team in the league were built on clubs buying the best players. This Dundalk side is different. The spine of the team is made up of players who were not wanted by the previous clubs.

I don't think it's ever fair to expect a club to share their success out among the others. Dundalk have won that pot of gold fair and square. In the short term, I hope Cork manage to win through Genk as well, or at least if they don't, I hope that Cork manage to win the League this season, so that Dundalk won't be able to bolt away from the pack quite as quickly. Dundalk will have some serious fixture issues coming up and it will affect them no doubt.

Immediate things the FAI could do to help redress the balance off the top of my head..

Scrap that 17k(?) registration fee.
The 5k grant which has been announced to help clubs with planning, is a good idea, but obviously the money is, far, far too low to make any sort of meaningful impact.
Offer grants or even training to help towards each clubs administrative staff.
Prize money: If we have Dundalk, and Cork to a lesser extent with plenty of cash reserves swashing around, upping prize money is very much necessary, especially for the clubs who are not competing in Europe, including 1st division.
More promotion, milk the good news stories.
Sort the fixtures out so that all teams in Europe are scheduled to play one another for at least the first two rounds of European competition.

Even with a few steps like that, you'd probably help the weaker clubs thread water far easier, while also helping to keep clubs just outside of European contention, capable of running a decent club, that can build year on year.

Shamrock Rovers windfall did not lead to dominance. 4 European places are available for LoI clubs. Cork have shown others can compete.The prize money in the league is poor. Europe offers clubs an opportunity for some financial reward.

Obviously the qualifying rounds are cup football. BATE missed a few opportunities for an important away goal. In another year and another game, the opponent might take that crucial away goal.

For the league to progress, the best teams need to progress first. It's not beyond the current Premier Division 3rd to 6th and Limerick to compete.

Dundalk and Cork will find it hard to hang on to players. More international respect and status for the league should hopefully help get better fees for selling on players.

One or two teams raising the bar of expectations for others is good for the league. The top 6 and Limerick are capable of moving in a direction of having 5000+ regularly at their games.

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Originally Posted by White Horse

Dundalk will use the proceeds to invest in badly needed infrastructure.

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Is there any guarantee of this though? As a matter of interest- is there a trust or fans group at DFC looking to influence club policy?

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Originally Posted by White Horse

Other successful team in the league were built on clubs buying the best players. This Dundalk side is different. The spine of the team is made up of players who were not wanted by the previous clubs.

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Ah now, it's not as if Dundalk aren't offering some of the best wages in the country. Most of the Dundalk players would walk onto any other team. The signed for Dundalk for the wages, not because no-one else wanted them.

IMO, one year of European success isn't enough to dominate the league for the foreseeable future, but two is.
Dundalk will find it difficult to manage wage expectations, and even more difficult to manage the budgetary demands of Kenny.
We forked out ridiculous wages for a while, staying overnight before matches in Dublin and Galway, flying to Cork and sending the team bus down empty. Our board couldn't say 'no' to Kenny. By 2009 we were bankrupt.

It'll take a very strong board to manage the money wisely. Players (and maybe management) will leave if they don't get more cash. Let them.
Stick the money into Oriel, marketing and youth development. Spend a bit on the team, it won't cost much to win the league. Dundalk will then have a solid base to repeat their success of this year.

I think people are forgetting that 4 years ago were were bankrupt and bottom of the league. The right manager on a tight budget signing a batch unlauded players the turned domestic fortunes around. With a few marquee signings to improve us further were possible with the upturn in gates and prize money. We suffered setbacks each season with talismanic and top scorers leaving. This success is not built on a mountain of cash it is due to good management throughout the club and a lot of damn hard work on and off the pitch. Yes it has snowballed now wit success getting a bit easier with more success but I doubt the basic ethos at the club especially that demanded by SK among the playing squad will change little. Players like McMillan were vilified especially by the odd Pats fan, we often called for a Fagan type signing also. Kenny seemed unconcerned and McMillan is top CL scorer!

Get your grubby paws off our cash :p

I think as a token of goodwill us and Cork should pay the participation fees for the 1st division clubs next season. Might throw a little bit extra to our feeder club UCD.

My expectation of where the cash will go will be on Oriel or a greenfield site for a new ground. I think if the lease situation is unresolved by the end of the year then we may need to seek somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Is there a case to be made for half of all Euro monies to go into a league-wide fund ring fenced for long term projects?.

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Absolutely not.

It's a similar argument to the one division league argument. Why should teams who are doing well be dragged down to the level of teams who are in most cases doing badly because they are really terribly ran.

A funding pot for the likes of Athlone and Waterford to draw down from?

No thanks.

Last night was a bad night for the league as a whole. But that's not dundalks problem.

Be interesting to watch what dundalk do over the next couple of months. If I'm one of their better players I want my 52 week two or three year contract and I want it now.

Teams that are doing well will be dragged down anyway if the league continues to lose clubs. And while Waterford and Athlone may have mostly themselves to blame for their problems- even reasonably well run clubs find it difficult to keep going, never mind building for the future.

And the idea would be that the money would be only for ground development etc, not just short term filling financial holes.

Obviously this is a purely theoretical argument anyway- I can't imagine it would ever get close to happening.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Teams that are doing well will be dragged down anyway if the league continues to lose clubs.

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I dunno, I reckon most of the self styled bigger clubs reckon the league could stand to lose six or seven clubs to be honest.

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And the idea would be that the money would be only for ground development etc, not just short term filling financial holes.

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I'm trying to think is there even one club in the first division that would be in a position ownership wise to develop their grounds.

I'd agree with you on development of training facilities because it's a massive cost of you don't have them. But that money should be coming from the national association not from other clubs imo.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Is there a case to be made for half of all Euro monies to go into a league-wide fund ring fenced for long term projects?

Discuss the issues.

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First off, congrats to Dundalk.

In answer to your question, my view is no. Dundalk went out and did the business, therefor the rewards are theirs.

In the first instance it's up to the LOI to fund itself. Then on a case by case basis, support for infrastructure only either from central government and/or local councils.

I've alluded to the issue of ground ownership in earlier posts but the issue just does not seem to get any traction.

Take Dundalk. Can't get any funding (in excess of €20k) due to this. So until the ownership and security of tenure is sorted properly, once and for all, then pumping state money into LOI grounds is a non runner. And rightly so, IMO.

Take St Pat's. Would you like to see some of your club's hard earned Euro millions being pumped into a ground that has been pledged as security during the boom for a €22m loan to another group company.

Take Drogheda, Cobh, Wexford. Would you pump money into a ground owned by the FAI?

Could some of the prize money be spent on a giant inflatable two fingers being driven slowly around and around RTE and a smaller equivalent display outside the offices of independent newpapers?

Great for Dundalk and good for the league in the bigger picture. What may stop Dundalk from dominating, even if they were to do it again, is that even with a large budget there's only so many players you can have in a squad and only so many players you can attract a) from other LOI clubs and b) from elsewhere. While they can build the strongest team in the league it will not be proportionate to the difference in budgets so I think the league will stay relatively competitive.

It will force the rest to become more strategic in their approaches to youth development and maximizing all available sources of income including trying to implement practices that will allow for fair transfer fees. This requires the support of the FAI something that has been easy for them to ignore/defer over the last few years. A strong and successful Dundalk with some power and good governance structures puts pressure on the FAI to pay attention to them and therefore to the league. A viable LOI team with sustained success will attract new fans to their local teams and will swell gate receipts across the country.

Strong provincial teams like Cork, Limerick and Sligo (not to mention Galway) and new Dalymount and the Tallaght project will all also help maintain broad competitiveness across the league.

In short there's a lot of potential upside to the league as a result of this and it will remain very difficult for a single club to dominate the league here. The budget will help but it's upside is fairly limited. I think.

The first thing Dundalk need to do is to tie down their better players on good contracts. Will also provide a better bargaining tool if and when the English league clubs come sniffing about.
The likes of Horgan especially needs to be offered a two year deal with a decent wage.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

The first thing Dundalk nfteed to do is to tie down their better players on good contracts. Will also provide a better bargaining tool if and when the English league clubs come sniffing about.
The likes of Horgan especially needs to be offered a two year deal with a decent wage.

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Our better players will be advised by their agents not to sign a new contract as it may scuper a love to the uk.

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Originally Posted by Dalymountrower

Could some of the prize money be spent on a giant inflatable two fingers being driven slowly around and around RTE and a smaller equivalent display outside the offices of independent newpapers?

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Virgin Medias offices too because they dropped Eir Sports and therefore many people aren't exposed to LOI any longer!

The FAI should be helping the likes of Waterford and Athlone, not Dundalk. Dundalk can do what they like with the money as well. I hope they blow it on pink diesel and bananas myself but I'd say they will put a few mill into oriel and have a serious budget also going forward.

I don't buy the argument that this is bad for the league either. Even when Rosenborg were dominating in Norway. Viking Stavanger were putting out the likes of Chelsea in Europe - Brann were able to reach the QF of the cup winners cup. Tromso got to EL group stages. Breakthroughs in Cyprus and even Shamrock Rovers have not had the dominating effect in those leagues. There is plenty evidence to suggest that this can raise the standard of the league in general. But I don't see how anyone can predict things with any degree of certainty. If football was all down to budgets - then BATE would have won 10-0 on agg.

Dundalk can only sign so many players and just because they have big money doesn't make the pool of players to chose from any bigger. Its not as if they are suddenly going to attract big names from the UK or abroad and if they did the money wouldn't last very long.

Where Dundalk are at the moment on the field is what all LOI clubs should be striving for and if you don't have ambition to do that then you shouldn't be competing in the first place. Sport across all codes has always been about teams setting standards and other teams trying to match or better it.

If for one am delighted for what they have achieved and hope that Limerick can one day be in a similar situation.

Clubs now need to worry about themselves and not what Dundalk are doing with their money.

I'm sure they won't as they're far too well-run currently, but instead of wasting their money on individuals by spending it on bringing over Damien Duff's dad and some other fat, past it footballers from beyond the horizon, they really ought to just boost Horgan's wages to championship level and either secure a top talent for the coming years or at least a fair compensation were he to rightly leave to bigger things.

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Originally Posted by paykanti

they really ought to just boost Horgan's wages to championship level and either secure a top talent for the coming years or at least a fair compensation were he to rightly leave to bigger things.

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That would mean paying him about 5k per week!!!

No offence but that's way too much for any LOI side to be paying anyone. The absolute max any Dundalk player should earn over the coming years is 1.5 - 2k per week imho. With that budget they could still be dominant domestically for years to come.

By all means give the lads a few grand each as a bonus for their progression in the CL but pls for the love of god don't lose the run of yourselves and start offering 3 yr contracts on massive wages.

Lads don't be jealous dundalk have worked extremely hard on and especially off the pitch from the first division not so long ago to the very top of the premier league and now progressing in Europe.
Whatever millions they will get they fully deserve it and have worked hard for it don't begrudge them it's up to other teams now to try copy there model of success.
Cork is sold out aswell there doing a good job down there aswell.

Another team limerick fc seem to be going the way of dundalk in regards off the field matters there doing enormous amount of work in the city and county there attendances are excellent concidering there playing very poor opposition they have a fantastic stadium there doing things the right way and it's showing on the field aswell promotion ( just about) and a cup final also still in fai cup.

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Originally Posted by Philosophizer

That would mean paying him about 5k per week!!!

No offence but that's way too much for any LOI side to be paying anyone. The absolute max any Dundalk player should earn over the coming years is 1.5 - 2k per week imho. With that budget they could still be dominant domestically for years to come.

By all means give the lads a few grand each as a bonus for their progression in the CL but pls for the love of god don't lose the run of yourselves and start offering 3 yr contracts on massive wages.

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It's what's needed if they're looking to progress beyond simply winning the LOI every season. They have a top quality talent at the minute on their books, if he goes, replacing his quality is very difficult so take the opportunity now to try and tempt these players to prolong their stay by offering them their market rate. Obviously giving him the 5k as opposed to 1k will cost them 250K a year (plus the added costs of others wanting to have their wages increased) but the risk is far less than handing out contracts to the likes of McGeady and what-not.

It is the natural next step to progression once they've got their bigger priorities like the infrastructure and stuff in place.

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Originally Posted by paykanti

Obviously giving him the 5k as opposed to 1k will cost them 250K a year (plus the added costs of others wanting to have their wages increased) but the risk is far less than handing out contracts to the likes of McGeady and what-not.

It is the natural next step to progression once they've got their bigger priorities like the infrastructure and stuff in place.

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This is the type of mindset that lead to the boom and bust of many LOI clubs in the past. Success followed by mindless splurging, followed by debt, bankruptcy and in many cases extinction.

As others have said, the majority of money should be spent on the stadium, training facilities, underage, marketing and community endeavours. By all means they can afford to increase their playing budget too but the day Dundalk players earn anything near 5k a wk is the day the club have signed their own death cert.

Not sure why ppl are mentioning McGeady. He doesn't strike me as the type of person that Stephen Kenny would want. Kenny prefers to work with younger hungry players. He doesn't want old guys coming to the end of their careers. I'd hope Dundalk go nowhere near the likes of him.

dundalk's earnings completely dwarf the money that Rovers received in 2011 so to compare them is not the best example.

they wont improve the ground because its not theirs , so it will be spent on bonuses , wages and travel for euopean games.
7 million will take awhile longer to blow than €1.5 but i'm sure they'll get there!

as for the idea that dundalk share their money around the league, I'm sure they'd say "get stuffed", and are well within their rights to do that.
If clubs are being badly then they need to be removed from the league once and for all , and a viable 10-12 league established.

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Originally Posted by Philosophizer

This is the type of mindset that lead to the boom and bust of many LOI clubs in the past. Success followed by mindless splurging, followed by debt, bankruptcy and in many cases extinction.

As others have said, the majority of money should be spent on the stadium, training facilities, underage, marketing and community endeavours. By all means they can afford to increase their playing budget too but the day Dundalk players earn anything near 5k a wk is the day the club have signed their own death cert.

Not sure why ppl are mentioning McGeady. He doesn't strike me as the type of person that Stephen Kenny would want. Kenny prefers to work with younger hungry players. He doesn't want old guys coming to the end of their careers. I'd hope Dundalk go nowhere near the likes of him.

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Exactly Kenny always wants player who want to improve themselves and buy into the training and fitness regime

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Originally Posted by placid casual

they wont improve the ground because its not theirs , so it will be spent on bonuses , wages and travel for euopean games.
7 million will take awhile longer to blow than €1.5 but i'm sure they'll get there!

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They're currently in a legal dispute to try to gain ownership of the lease. Sorting that or else acquiring a brand new site to develop is their main priority. There's no chance they'll spunk their winnings away like others have done. They seem to be better run than previous LOI clubs who have had success.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Is there any guarantee of this though? As a matter of interest- is there a trust or fans group at DFC looking to influence club policy?

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Rovers proposed something like this a few years back when we'd have been the ones losing out and it was voted down!

What did Shams spend their money on in the end? I know there is a big difference in the sum, but a lot of people had the same fear about them dominating. That didn't turn out so well.

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Originally Posted by Nugget

What did Shams spend their money on in the end? I know there is a big difference in the sum, but a lot of people had the same fear about them dominating. That didn't turn out so well.

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Paying Stephen Kenny off would have taken a decent chunk of money I'd imagine.

Paying off Trevor Croly.

Paying off Pat Fenlon.

You get the picture.

Croly had three months left on his deal and was just paid as normal. Kenny got a job right away and settled. Most of the money went into the temporary stand, paying for the away trips and the youth system. The rest was slowly drained by the first team.

The evidence to date is that the current Dundalk owners will not blow the Euro money on player wages. Apart from the improvements required at Oriel Park, they share Kenny’s vision, the end result of which is to dominate Irish football and through that to generate a future Euro cash flow. Whether in the Champions League or the Europa League, it is difficult to see Dundalk not being in the first three in the League for the foreseeable future. With an annual Euro reward of between €4k and €6k, over the next half dozen seasons that’s worth another €3 million, thus re-enforcing the dominant position.
That’s the danger for other LOI clubs, not the once and for all 2016 €7 million.

This thread reminds of how around 2006/7 all the so called experts told us our new found wealth would continue , that ".. Things are different this time.." , how the economy at worst "..Would have a soft landing..." etc. And we all know what happened

So we'll see

And we all remember rovers fans in 2011 talking about them being the model club built on a solid foundation and ready to dominate the loi for years to come and this was only the beginning.

The truth is that the prize money already attained by dundalk will mostly go to much needed ground improvements or looking into a greenfield site if oriel is to costly to get up to standard. 7m will not cover it imo.
So it's a bonus an unbelievable one but we are not or I am not getting away with it. A fantastic opportunity for some forward planning and a terrific facility like tallaght, turners cross or the showgies

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Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite

The truth is that the prize money already attained by dundalk will mostly go to much needed ground improvements or looking into a greenfield site if oriel is to costly to get up to standard. 7m will not cover it imo.
So it's a bonus an unbelievable one but we are not or I am not getting away with it. A fantastic opportunity for some forward planning and a terrific facility like tallaght, turners cross or the showgies

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You're probably right, jinxy. However if they were go get through to the group stages then they really would swimmin in dosh...

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Originally Posted by Philosophizer

You're probably right, jinxy. However if they were go get through to the group stages then they really would swimmin in dosh...

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A new stadium wouldn't be cheap. I'm sure the money could go very quickly.

everyone seems to be saying this Dundalk board are too smart to waste the money. Is there any particular reason for this honest question not trying to be cheeky just don't know very much about their board and was wondering if they had done something in particular to get this sort of perception.

Dundalk board and owners certainly showed their smarts back in 2012 when convincing Stephen Kenny to sign up

Erm.. he was one of the highest rated managers in the league even if his time at Rovers had gone poorly. So that doesn't really answer the question. European success doesn't automatically mean you have a great board.. just look at Shels.