Is anyone else sick to death of this so called feud?,the pair have been fairly quiet for the last few months,suddenly as the Highbury game gets that bit nearer it all starts again :rolleyes: .Just one big set up if you ask me.
Printable View
Is anyone else sick to death of this so called feud?,the pair have been fairly quiet for the last few months,suddenly as the Highbury game gets that bit nearer it all starts again :rolleyes: .Just one big set up if you ask me.
I'm surprised it's carried on - didn't think Wenger was going to comment on Fergie ever again (except obviously any day with y in it, it seems).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
In fairness, it was Ferguson who started it AGAINQuote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
Personally, I think Fergie has Wenger this time - he's getting closer and closer to a Keegan-esque break down. I'd just love it :D
The pair of them should get in the ring and sort it out for the asian disaster,they'd make big money I'd say.
It was indeed Ferguson who gave an interview 4 months after the game on the morning of a game against Liverpool!!!! :confused:
p.s. Misquoting Wenger's is a national hobby, having watched the post game interview on Arsenal Plus, he actually told the gathered UK Media after the that he would not answer any questions about Alex from them again - he hasn't. THe UK Media printed further quotes form a French TV interview - not Arsene's problem! They are the facts.
I quite enjoy it to be honest. It adds to the tension which invariably will be in the match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
As for it being a set up, you could be on to something. Sky just love to call these games "Judgement day" or "Night of Destiny" or such rubbish, and with the 2 managers feuding on the backpage of every tabloid, its adds to viewers.
So just not answering questions from anybody from that press conference (who obviously only British). :DQuote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Keep dreaming there Macy!! You'd wonder why a highly successful manager would need to indulge in these so-called mind games at this stage in his career. Perhaps it's to cover the blips in the transfer market or to deflect the focus from the thoughts of a second successive season without a title or a top 2 finish???? I've yet to see Fergie rattle Wenger once - he tried it all last year, he tried it in 98, he tried it in 02, he tried it the first day wenger came to England with his educated 'he comes here from Japan and thinks he knows all about football?' comments!! It's just laughable at this stage! :D
emmm, yes I think you will find that he hasn't mentioned Fergie to anyone from that Press Conference i.e. the gathered English media - where's your problem with understanding that??? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
sorry but wasn't it Sir Alex who said it was Arsenal who kept going on about the tunnell incident and then brings it up 4 months later!
I'm just glad our story of the events have been consistant and not like Fantasy fergie's doissier's and interviews!!!
it's a bit like the Rio drugs scandel again
There's a different angle from you guys every day. Smells of desparation - roll on February 1st :D
LOL, the fans are falling for it as much as Wenger... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
all this has nothing to do with the match in 2 weeks time. To me its designed to take the gloss off the fact that the 2 of them are 10 points off chelsea and their teams just aren`t in the same class.
Mourinho is the man having the last laugh, only in england a wet day and hes making a fool out of the 2 experts at "mind games" :D
apparently the cops have told them both to shut it.
personally, i think its pathetic, to see 2 grown men behaving like that, but it is an entertaining soap opera for fans. I think Ferguson has really got to Wenger this time- wenger looks like a man who's ready to crack. Ferguson is a scumbag and bully, but he knows what he's doing. Wenger should shut up before he embarasses himself
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
Except he has you see, the sports correspondent from the guardian was on the last word and he said that while Whinger refused to talk about Ferguson in the press conference, after the press conference he and some journos moved to another room, he was pushed on the subject and let rip...
...anyway, it's so bloody boring at this stage, I don't know why I'm joining in. :rolleyes:
LOL you must be joking! Watching Fergie twist and turn and change his story is a great laugh! Us Gooners stopped taking him seriously long ago (think it was the 'every player in the world wants to play for Utd' (except Shearer, Vieira & Ronaldinho obviously!) or when he celebrated the 2-2 draw with Arsenal on the highbury pitch in 2003 to make up for Wenger celebrating completing the double at Old Trafford the year before! (hilarious that was!) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Macy
as i said, roll on 1st February! :D
Had my fill of the Wenger/Ferguson thing pretty much at after the 2-2 draw at Highbury two seasons back. Listening to the sports reports after and reading the papers for the following couple of days you would have thought that no other sporting event existed outside the two managers.
Karlos your comments are very pro Arsenal due to you obviously supporting arsenal, so they have no air of objecitvity about them at all. To be fair to ferguson, he was hit with food in the tunnel by arsenal players. Wenger also started calling his players cheats. in the tunnel and he told Wenger to go back into the dressing, and then wenger raised his fist and said what are you going to do about it. It was agreed between the 2 clubs that what happened woudl be kept quiet to protect all concerned which was in Arsenals interest more than Utds. However a lot of Arsenal players kept on saying they were kicked off the pitch at Old Trafford and saying that utd only won by bully boy tactics despite arsenal having more yellow cards and committing more fouls during the game. As a result Ferguson was giving an interview about many subjects, it was quite a long ranging interview and he was asked about the forthcoming arsenal game and he felt it was time to set the record straight as aresnal had been warping the facts of the incident. That is the context of teh interview and the comments.
Alex Ferguson has won more trophies than any other British manager
He qualified for the quarter finals of the Champions leaugue 6/7 years on the trot. He has 3 European trophies to his name
Wenger is a very successful manager in the premierhip but only has 3 league titles to Fergusons 7. He has never one anything at European level and in fact Aresenal have only made the quarters once in all their efforts in the Champions league.
These are all the facts. I am not a utd supporter. But a bit of balance is needed here as you say yourself you are a gunner.
Wenger never raised his fists at Ferguson. Why do you believe this? Because Sir Alex said it happened????? :rolleyes:
I admit I'm a staunch Gunner but first thing first. The Series of Events you described above are the 'FACTS' as described by Alex Ferguson not by anyone else. No journalist reported Wenger raising his fists at the time 4 months ago and this has only come to light since Alex's interview. If Food was thrown, and it could possibly have been, who threw it? Why didn't Alex mention the person who threw the food in his interview? Why don't the papers name him, seeing as they know everything else that happened? Why was this story brought back up almost 2 months since the last Arsenal player spoke about it which I believe was Reyes? When has Fergie ever mentioned that Food was thrown?? he hasn't yet? One thing is for certain, Wenger did call RvN a cheat and has been punished for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
In fact seeing as Arsene hasn't been in English football as long as Alex it's natural that he has won more and his record is great, no question. However you negelected to print the record of Alex since Wenger became Arsenal boss as this is a better comparison of their head to head battles. Arsene 3 League Titles, 3 FA Cups - Alex 4 League Titles, 2 FA Cups, 1 European cup.
The records of head to head Arsene vs Alex are quite evenly matched, would you not say???? You bring up Arsenal's european record when Utd haven't come even close to winning the cup since 1999 - first round knockout last year I do believe. I'm not here arguing who is better but the FACTS are there for you too see. We have yet to be produced with facts from the old trafford fallout. We have heard story after story, rumour after rumour, why should we believe Alex's story over Wengers??? Give me one good reason why we should? If your asking me to take the word of Alex Ferguson as gospel then I can't go along with that.
Ditto Wenger surely? Should we believe him, just because the press love him?Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
Utd were not knocked out in the 1st round last year they were knocked out in the 2nd round or last 16 if u will. this is the first time that this has happened for them in 6 or 7 years which was a European record whereas Arsenal have never come near winning the European Cup. U say Utd have not come near winning it since they won it but Arsenal have Never come near winning it.
Ferguson descrived what happened in the tunnel if anything he said wasn not true you would guarantee that Wenger and or Aresnal would have him up for defamation of character or at least contradict what happened. However Wenger has just said I belive nothing significant happened in the tunnel. Whenever Arsenal lose there is always some reason for it they never just lose but always blame something. This is not necessarily a bad thign as i think players should be bad losers but you can go overboard and throwing food at a manager is a terrible act.
Another thing that gets refused to mention in this. Many many mangers in England and throughout Europe are quiet friendly with Alex Ferguson
Harry Redknapp
Jim Smith
Peter Reid
Marcello Lipi
Gerard Houllier
George Graham
Alan Curbishly
Steve Mc Claren
Walter Smith
and he at least has the decency to have a drink with the opposing manager after the game. however Wenger is unpopular with other mangers and refuses to have the post match drink with the opposing manager. If Ferguson was such a ******** or a scumbag as people here have said do u you think all of the others would be friendly with him
And the current scraps with Arsenal are nothing compared to the late 80's and early 90's ones with Graham as manager...
I still think Ferguson's European record is very poor, esp. compared to the likes of Cappello or even Otto Hitzfelt. Domestically he's done well, but in Europe he's had just one good season. When you consider the money spent, and players at his disposal he really should have done more in Europe. In the past 5 years Man Utd have been pretty poor in the Champions League, average teams have made it as far as the semi finals over the past 6/7 years (Leeds, Depor, Leverkusen all spring to mind), let alone the quarters (where you can start adding the likes of Panathinikos, Liverpool, Galatasaray, and one of Bremen/Lyon this season) so I don’t think getting there is a major bench mark of success. When you look at how many (or few) quality teams Man Utd have beaten home and away over the last 5 years in Europe its not a particularly impressive read.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Arsenal's record in Europe is worse, as are most other English teams, but United have passed the peak of their dominance (now they regularly have to go into the qualifiers of the CL) and many other European teams have better recent records.
The bottom line is Chelsea are the new top dogs domestically, and Morinho has already won as many Champions Leagues as Ferguson (ie one, but Morinho won it with a much cheaper team, and looks likely to win it again with Chelsea over the next few years).
Ferguson should have walked after the treble, he would have gone out on a high that way - but he hasn’t and he's frustrated hence the jibes with Wenger, and more recently his nouvelle bete noire, José Morinho. For his part Wenger is probably frustrated at the Arsenal's lack of money / inability to compete financially with the biggest European Clubs. Both of them are like bald men fighting over a comb.
And just to clarify I don’t support any Premier League team.
As far as I can make out the media have blown this Arsenal/Man U feud up big time over the years.It was never there in the 60's and 70's,started off in the late 80's,festered in the 90's and now we have the managers at it now.It has all been made up to satisfy the football public.Arsenals biggest/traditional rivals,Spurs, are not big enough to compete with them and ditto for Man U and Liverpool.
I agree english teams have a terrible record in europe since the Ban. However i was comparing Ferguson to Wenger which is the topic of the debate. In that regard Wenger can never be regarded as a Great manager as he has done nothing at European level. Ferguson did win the Cup Winners Cup with a regional team i.e. Aberdeen and winning the treble was a remarkable achievement hence it never been done before or since. Utd have reached the semis 3 times under his managership and they went out to Leverkeusen on away goals.
Capello has a great European track record as has Lippi other than that I think Fergusons compares favourable to contemporary mangers. Another thing that must be understood is that Ferguson is hated by the English journalist as he does not give them post match interviews. Joe Lovejoy was on Jimmy Hills supplment one day ans there was venom coming out of his mouth and it is generally agreed amongst most of the London based journalist that Ferguson is an ignorant man. However has i said before he is very popular amongst the mangers. I think i know which I woudl prefer to be popular amongst.
wow fergie is friends with all those managers, legend? This has a significance with what??
p.s. don't tell Fregie but Marcello Lippi is managing a team with his secret friend Arsene in aid of the Tsunami fund in the Nou Camp..........there may be trouble ahead.
I have never laughed so much - amazing how you know all about the personal friends of Sir Alex and if your not a manc, you should be - and I'm the one not being objective - reality check!!
The only facts we have from Old Trafford is that Ruud Van Nistelrooy was called a cheat and that Arsene Wenger was fined. The rest is pure subjective gutter newspaper ballix of half truths and rumours!
just for the friendship fanclub: Houllier and Wenger are best mates, Houllier presented him with his outstanding achievement award as 'MANAGER OF THE YEAR FOR 2004' the other nite and they talkied about their friendship and fun times together! Friendship is bliss!
spot on - for all his lack of the massive budgets Utd have spent since Wengers appointment (28m on Veron, 30m on Rio, 30 on Rooney) Wenger's highest fee paid was 13 million for Wiltord up until Jose Reyes signed last January - that's just 1 million more than what Utd paid for a teenager in Ronaldo. For his ability to win only 1 less trophy than Ferguson during his time with Arsenal without the budget that others have had, have made him a magnificent 'manager' of not only the team but of the funds. Arsenal are currently sitting 2nd in the Premiership ,( a point ahead of Man Utd) knockout stages of Europe having won their group having spent 35m less than Man Utd and a Billion Less than Chelski this Summer and having the burden of 256 million stadium. I can live with that!Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
If it's a value for money ratio - Wenger's streets ahead of any Manager in the game. :D
Well I'd say neither can be regarded as great on the European level, and I would like to think that a discussion on either Wenger or Ferguson’s European Management credentials could be party to this thread given its title.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Some other winners of the CWC (10 or so years either side of Aberdeen's win), that I'd class as regionalQuote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
1974 FC Magdeburg
1976 & 78 Anderlecht
1981 Dynamo Tblisi
1988 Mechelen
1992 Werder Bremen
1995 Real Zaragosa .
I don’t think winning a competition that, lets be honest was never a first rate European Trophy, can be considered a great achievement. The teams he beat in that season were, Sion, Dinamo Tirana, Lech Poznan, Bayern Munich, Waterschei and Real Madrid in the final. With the exception of Bayern and Real, it would be hard to class any of the above teams as great European powers, four of the 6 opponents were, lets be honest probably far weaker than most of the small teams he'd have been playing in the Scottish League.
Against a relatively poor Bayern side, he drew 0-0 in Germany and won 3-2 at home. Similarly he beat Real 2-1 in extra time in the fina, creditable performaces but only over 3 matches. To my mind, his CWC win with Aberdeen, so frequently held up as an example of his European pedigree, consists of 6 ties, 4 against significantly weaker teams - and 2 made up of one-goal wins against good teams.
Only if compared to other premier league managers. Otto Hitzfeld has won the CL twice, with different clubs (Dortmund and Bayern) and reached the final another time. Other managers have won it once also but have had much less time to do it than Ferguson (eg Ancelotti, Morinho, Del Bosque)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
His alleged ignorance, and the media's perception of him, in my opinion, have very little bearing on the facts of the matter - he has had more opportunity (in terms of time at club, ability of squad, money to spend etc) than any other manager in the modern European game over the past 15 years. Yet despite this (ie having a decent squad, a substantial amount of money, and 15 years) he has only one the biggest prize once... that to me is a poor record. I would like to think that any top manager at Old Trafford over that timescale would have been able to at least match his European achievements, and would imagine if Morinho is at Chelsea for 15 years he will win more than one Champions League.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
He may well be popular amongst the managers and unpopular with press, if I was him I wouldn’t place excessive care on either - Christian Gross was unpopular with the media, and Dave Bassett was popular with other managers yet there popularity had little impact on their success, which was governed by ability (or lack of it). The point is management is not a media or cohort popularity contest, winning trophies is what counts, and in Europe he's not done that nearly enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Yes but that is not the way managers are judged Wenger will never be considred a great manager until he can deal with the European game and win a European trophy or at least get Arsenal to a champions league final. THat is the true test of a manager. In relation to Fergusons friends within the game, that point was to counteract a lot of the comments that are made here and elsewhere that he is a scumbag and a ******** and that he is a **** stirrer etc. If that was the case do u think he woudl be friends with so many managers. In relation to Lippi it is possible to have two friends that dont get along. I am not saying that been popular is an important component in been a manager but in a thread where the point seem to be the managers personalities as well as their respective records it is a point worth bringing up.
Edmundo you seem to have narrowed the discussion to suit yoru argument. The thread is about wenger ferguson hence the title. It is not exclusively about the top managers in European football. THis is a valuable component of the argument however it is not the only part of the discussion. I think a manager who has won more trophies than any othe British manager must go down as one of the greatest managers of all time. That is fact. If wenger goes on to win more trophies than anybody else then he will go down as one of the greatest managers of all time as well. I agree that Fergusons spending of money in recent years has not been great but rememember the more money you have to spend the more you get charged for a player. If Utd go on for a player the cost of buying genearally doubles. IN additino Ferguson did not have loads of money to spend in the first few years. In addition he also formed the backbone of his side with players froma youth system that he set up. in my opinion that is the mark of a great manger, been able to set up a system at a club that had virtually no youth set up and get so many good players from it.
We are probably getting away from the original point of the thread. However I do think that Ferguson, if he was hit with food by Arsenal players is due an apolgoy by either Arsenal or by Wenger or by the player that did it to him. The diciplinary record of Arsenal since Wenger joined has been terrible and now manager should have to food thrown at him while he is walking back to his dressing room.
Neil, I’ll try and avoid further confusion by outlining my thoughts:-
* Ferguson's won a considerable amount of domestic trophies, however, for much of that time he (& man utd) had very little competition. There were no major challengers and the English league was as predictable as the Norwegian League.
* Wenger and Ferguson have pretty much similar domestic records asince Wenger became manager. Implying that once there was serious competition Ferguson's domestic record deteriorated.
* Ferguson has a better European record over that time.
* Ferguson has more means (ie more money, time at the helm etc) to succeed in Europe. In fact he's had great means but only won the CL once, Wenger's done worse but has (imo) had less resources.
* Wenger has a better record when it comes to buying players, he's generally spent less money (in some cases he actually made money for the club), and has had less expensive flops (Veron).
* Both have weaknesses in their current team (ie Goalkeepers), these weaknesses have been apparent for around a year yet neither manager has done anything about this. It could be argues that Wenger is limited by lack of money, but given Ferguson's spent significant money on 3 strikers (Saha, Smith, Rooney) over the past 12 months you have to question why he didn’t buy a quality keeper (eg Abbondanzieri, Hildbrant, Robinson or even try to get Given). To my mind that’s poor management.
* Incidentally it is worth considering that there are 3 top teams in the Premier League now. Chelsea, Arsenal, and Man Utd. Of their managers, there appears to be a conflict between Ferguson and Wenger, and Ferguson and Morinho - do you not consider it perhaps curious that there doesnt appear to be a conflict between Morinho and Wenger.
* To my mind AF’s lack of European success, coupled with the realisation that his golden era is over (and so chances of further European success are greatly diminished) has caused a degree of bitterness on his part. AW’s lack of funds means it will always be very difficult for him (& Arsenal) to compete with the richer European Clubs (Juventus, AC Milan, now Chelsea). Consequently Arsenal have a great 1st team but don’t have vast strength in their reserves. This means that, when they inevitably pick up one or two injuries, their form against the cream of European opposition suffers. Both managers are frustrated by their situations and hence the bickering, which frankly shows immaturity on the part of both. I cannot imagine Lippi, Trappatoni or Hitzfeld getting themselves dragged down to the level those two have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
It's worth noting that while the Gunners have had dubious displinary record, they finished first in the Fair Play Table last year and top 5 the year before. This is a significant improvement and testiment to Wenger's enforcement of disipline so often called into question.
Utd haven't always had the best displinary record during Fergusons reign with Cantano and Rio's bans stretching well over a year in length and the scenes of half the Utd Team chasing a referee around the pitch hardly covering the club in disipline glory.
It's swings and roundabouts for most clubs as far as disipline and I'm glad to see Wenger sorted that out when we were by far the worst for on-field offences!
I think we should call it a day on this one, we're worse than sky for the hype here and my blood pressure won't take 2 weeks of this!! May the best team win (as long as there wearing red n white!) :D
Could not give a **** who wins as Long as Ireland qualify for the world cup. I was tyring to comment on this as a dispasssionate observer and I dont get fooled by the media protrayal of Ferguson as a monster or whatever they like to call him. He comes across to me as a very principled but fair man and I do not support Utd or have I ever supported Utd. Also Wenger seems to be no friend of Ireland as I have not seen many irish players grace the Arsenal line up in his time there.
Hope Fergies lawyers is not reading this for your sake. Some serious allegations been levelled at him there, and i am not sure if any of them have been proven
Yes Stam and he has a sqeaky clean record himself
Of couse not but it does mean that maybe what he says may not be as honest or as truthful as you are painting out him to be. I would not take what is in his book as fact.
Which do you have now? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
Naive to think that every team doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
Nothing at all to do with Greening being bitter about not being very good. Not exactly an unbias source. However, there are plenty of players at United that don't/didn't have his son as an agent and haven't been forced out of the club. Suggesting, favouring etc I'll accept (and think is wrong), but forced is going too farQuote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
Well he did drop it for the good of the club - no one knew, including the tax dodgers, that the nag would prove so good. Wasn't good for the club, but then it depends on whether you think it's alright to give a present, and then take it back when you realise that it's actually quite a good one. It should be noted that SAF was settled, just not to the level he wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
So what - the BBC were doing a hatchet job on him, why should he support them at the same time. Incidentally all managers use this weapon when someone reports something they don't like. The Manchester Evening Blues have suffered from this a few times. The BBC have as well (normally as a result of Alan Green's anti-united rants)Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
Depends on who you believe I suppose. I'll check the book tonight for the full story - he did go to an unfair dissmissals tribunal, (and lost, but not because of an issue over money) so it wasn't that clear cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
To be honest in Wengers time at Arsenal there are only a handful of Irish players who could get into his Arsenal team, Duff, Keane, Given maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
You should have a read of the 'Arsenal Irish' thread! You'd see that there are quite a number of young Irish male and female footballers now learning their trade under Arsene's coaching staff at club. Certainly there are very high hopes for Anthony Stokes who is playing regualry in the reserves and the likes of Emma Byrne who has won more trophies than I've had hot dinners!
I'm not sure if your trying to imply that Wenger has some sort of anti-irish disposition, I'd like to think you could back that up if it was the case :mad: . Certainly in the recent cases of Barrett and Stack - they were not better than the players who held their positions at the time (although a case could be made for Stack now).