Out with it!!! Have your say!!! :)
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Out with it!!! Have your say!!! :)
Real or Royal were Francos club. They won countless leagues in the old days BECAUSE they were Francos club. Clubs like Barcelona would never get a result outside of the Camp Nou.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
In regards to Santigo Bernabeau, he was a general or something in the Spanish Civil War and murdered helpless Catalans.
And you wonder why the Catalans hate Real Madrid??? :(
This is the sort of stereotyping that has all Celtic fans as shinners or Rangers fans as racists. What about Real taking the crown off its badge during the 2nd Republic. What about the B*stardolona's fascist salutes, the falangists that ran the club during the Franco years, the 'dodgy' deal that got them the Nou Camp in the first place, the Boixos Nois whose only difference with the Ultras Sur is that they hate everyone except Catalans (bar those non-white Catalans of course) instead of everyone that isn't Spanish. Meanwhile the ONLY two Real Madrid supporters (actually from Madrid) I met in Uni were a Swampy/Harry Enfield's Kevin lookalike, who didn't see the irony when I said 'you must be a fascist supporting Real' and another who had a go at a Aussie Ukrainian lecturer for not condemning his father's Nazi past enough. Some fascists. :rolleyes:
Franco was a Facist, Real are Francos club, do the Math :)Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I think Real will always struggle to lose the Government/Army team tag. It didn't help matters a few years ago when Real, over £100m in debt, sold their training complex to the Government who promptly leased it back to them on some ridiculously low rent.
That is a silly post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldini98
Tony Blair is a Man Utd fan. Does that make Man U a socialist club?
Now everyone knows there are facist undertones in Reals past, but assertions like the above do nothing to prove any argument.
Might do if Tony Blair controlled the club in a socialist way, influenced transfer dealings, bailed Man U out a few times and any many of their fans to this day carried out 'socialist' straight hand hello'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Gary
Oh yea and Blair would have to be a socialist too:D
Thank You SócQuote:
Originally Posted by SÓC
Labour still have notions of being a socialist party, working for the proletariat. We all know thats tripe, but thats what they say they stand for.
As for the argumrnt at hand, Reals history is very transparent, no-one, even themselves will deny that Franco had alot to do with their success decades ago.
but their is a difference between actually spouting cliched hearsay - "Real are fascists" and backing up a point, actually having knowledge of what you are speaking about.
Anyone ever hear of their hooligan group Ultra Surs,well,these scum have links to Hammerskin,the white supremist movement.Recently Figo and Raul were photographed smiling while holding a scarf and flag from this group.Also Raul accepted a plaque as an accolade from this group.This group receives free tickets for games and once,until recently had it's own offices at the Bernabeu handing out leaflets and flags bearing Franco's shield and other nazi symbols.Plus Former club president,Ramon Mendoza once famously said if he was 20 again he would be an Ultra Sur.And people wonder where all the monkey chants come from :mad:
So who are the Socialist club? Pathetico? The club with a fascist in charge POST FAT FRANK and a large following to boot. Rayo? With a miserly following in a city of 3M which was the last to fall to Franco, and voted in numerous socialist mayors up until a few years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
So well informed. You must have read Antonio Salas Diario de un Skin? Or more like yet another gulible reader of Britain's neo-colonial press in Ireland. :rolleyes: Recently? About three years ago, in fact, not that the 'Irish' :D :rolleyes: Mirror bothered to print that until those loveable rogues got the monkey chants. Links to Hammerskin? So do Boixos Nois. Monkey chants? Didn't they appear at the Nou Camp against Roberto Carlos the week-end after the tans game? What's your point. Barcelona are a fascist club too? Didn't think so. As for Ramon Mendoza, wasn't he supposed to be a member of the KGB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
Are we seriously expected to take any sort of lecture on fascism from somone who uses the word 'Yidos' on this site? P*ss off! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldini98
Check out http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200411/s1251921.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by lopez
As for the Yidos quote, Spurs fans call themselves Yidos so I really don't know what you are on about. Anyway you seem a tad annoyed, Going Mad, Going Mad !!!! :)
Of course son and Jews call themselves that too. :rolleyes: Going mad? I'm laughing at your attempt at being an anti-fascist. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Aldini98
Lopez do you like PSG?
No. Are they a 'fascist' club too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
Well they have a leaning towards the right alright,just wondered if there was some sort of pattern there :D
The point about Spain is that, unlike Germany, they have felt - good or bad, right or wrong - that the time for telling people what not to display is too much like Francoism. Fascist symbols include something inocuous as the Spanish national emblem from the dictatorship. Toffs sell a replica of the old Spanish shirt which has this badge on (they also sell, innocently, Italian retro shirts with fascist ensignia, because that was the badges worn during Mussolini's rule). The display of this p*sses me off personally but it can hardly be club policy unless the same flag is displayed over its ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Rayo fans have flags of the equally contentious 2nd Republic as well as flags of the Soviet Union. When I was at a Depor v Malaga game a few years back a supporter had a USSR flag. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd put the Soviet regime higher on the scale of evil than Fat Frank's if not as bad (for ideological reasons only) as the third reich. But I didn't see the police remove this flag or go and hassle stall holders for selling them.
So I'm a fascist now! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
I just don't understand how a club can openly support a fascist group(ultra sur)by encouraging them with free tickets to games and giving them a free hand to do what the fcuk they want in and around the stadium,thats all I have to say about it.
N o I didn't say you were a Fascist pal,as Dav said you seem to be a big defender thats all
Oh just a defender of fascism. Oh that's OK then. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
Whatever you call it mate :rolleyes: ,you know best
Lopez, do you like football? :)
I've never seen any pictures of swastikas at Real games but there are plenty of other 'fascist' symbols, none of which are used as innocently as Cork's rebel flags. As for the kit, I doubt that had anything to do with race and I see that they replaced the purple away kit with an all black kit when adidas took over.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
To be honest, my one visit to see the 'new-shirts' (dear me, even I can't stop alluding to the club's fascist past - well more like ultra conservative past because claiming Franco was a Fascist in the true sense of the word is like claiming a McDonald's chicken nugget came from a farmyard bird), the poor enthusiasm of the rest of the stadium probably requires the club to employ the US to get some sort of atmosphere in. As for football clubs themselves, I like to see their employment policies for a better picture of discrimination and some good old socialist clubs - Liverpool and Everton come to mind - don't come out too good in this.
Thanks for that. We might talk some more when a topic comes up that you actually know something about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
No problem son, get back to me when you learn to respect other people's opinion and manage to wake up and smell the coffee,maybe then I'll consider it :D
That there would be some fightin' talk !!!!! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
Fair point. They do indulge these scum, and a lot of Real fans are far from happy about it. But to be fair, they are not the only club in Spain (let alone europe) to indulge fans of dubious reputation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
unfortunately there have been. I have photos of it from Marca or AS from 2 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I declare this can of worms WELL AND TRULY OPEN :D
In all seriousness, I think conor has spoken the most sense on this thread. Its a tag, a label, that is used by people with nothing better to do, and without the energy to investigate the real facts. I did a research project on it (only about 12,000 words) for college 2 years ago, so if anyone wants a copy, let me know.
Facts are these:
- Real enjoyed support from the dictatorship.
-There WAS government intervention in the di stefano transfer.
-There is no evidence of government interference in any other matter- other than forcing Barca (and Athletic) to change their name into spanish.
-Real were just better than Barca. Compare the trophy haul under the dictatorship, and since the dictatorship- it proves it.
-Barca have every right to detest Real for the politics of some of its fans and those of previous presidents. it doesn't mean they were cheated.
-Barca's previous president (who spouted the usual Catalan nationalist rhetoric) was a member of the predecessor of the PP, a party founded by members of Franco's government. As was the current Real president
-The Boixos Nois (Barca Ultras) are just as right-wing and nasty as the Ultras Sur. Many Barca fans have turned away from them after they took a turn to the right after Franco's death.
Not facts, but things I firmly believe:
-Talk of refereeing bias- for every ref who sided with Real, you can be sure there was one who sided with Barca. Spain was(is) very evenly divided on the matter.
-Barca are a very successful club. They've won a lot. Real just happen to have won more. And they both won fair and square.
-Barca have just as much access to politicians as Real, and enjoy complete, unrestricted access to the Catalan regional parliament.
-Barca have always had (and continue to have) a large sympathy vote from around the world- this despite the fact that both clubs (to a similar extent) represent the same type of egotistical nationalism and contempt for others, its just that Barca have succeeded in perfecting their "victim" status. Historically, Catalans have been victims, Barca has not
It wouldn't surprise me. Some US got arrested in Germany a few years back (think it was the Dortmund first leg in 98) for doing a Prince Harry impersonation. They didn't realise that it's a criminal offence there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
unfortunately me neither. two lads holding big 3rd reich flags with a proud swastika bang in the middle. :rolleyes: of course, they regularly have the old spanish flag with the dictatorship's insignia on it (name escapes me) which is illegal in SpainQuote:
Originally Posted by lopez
One. Great. Free. Didn't know the flag was illegal in Spain though. Note for anyone visiting Spain with their Toffs retro 1964 top, then: Don't. Also words to the Spanish anthem is a highly controversial issue. I heard that our old friend Luis Hablo-cojones was apparently told to keep his mouth shut during the anthem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
Thought your summary (and Connor's) was excellent. I'd disagree with the bit about the Catalans. I'd say a large section - just like the rest of Spain - were victims while a minority done very well out of it all. But then life is never (if you pardon the pun) black and white.
am I right in thinking there are no "Official" words to it, but two (or more) different versions which would indicate a persons politics fairly clearly, depnding on which version they sing?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I agree with you there. Some people did very well out of it- Nunez the ex-barca president for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Another thing I remembered as well- if Barca fans want a hate figure, how about Primo de Rivera, the dictator before franco in the 1920's. he actually banned the club from all competitions for 6 months for booing the Spanish anthem. that never happened under franco
You're right. The 'Marcha Real' has no official words but it was used as the anthem under Fat Frank. While I knew there were words written I only found out recently that one set was official under Franco. I typed in 'Himno de Espana' in google and unsurprisingly got linked to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
http://www.americanfascistmovement.com/music.htm
Cara Al Sol was another song and it is here that the derogatory term 'new shirt' comes in. A 'new shirt' was someone who joined the 'movimiento' for reasons nothing to do with the Falangists of Jose Antonio PdR. Monarchists, capitalists, churchmen, Carlists, and general scumbags. All usually in an effort to get a slice of the action. Nothing unusual here as the same happens in all totalitarian regimes, left or right.
As you might know Joselito was shot in Alicante by the Republicans through Franco's insistence not to do a deal with them over exchanging prisoners. Of course nothing to do with a threat to his power. :rolleyes: Then Joselito's number 2 (who's name I think was Herrera) ended up as a guest of the fat one with the reds when he too criticised him. Something about a riot with some Basque Carlists at a Movimiento meeting in San Sebastian also comes to mind. Then we have Jose Gil Robles, the leader of the Catholic fascist CEDA who did more than anyone to stir up the SCW but ended up a 'democrat' according to Juan Carlos's dad who gave an eulogy at his funeral. Elbowed out by Franco, he later voiced his concerns at a Christian Democrat congress in Munich circa 1964. For his troubles he was arrested at Barajas on his return before being pencilled in for the last flight out of Madrid. However the story goes that this was to Dakar and some generous cop thought this was a bit severe and waited until the morning for a flight to Paris instead. Like Carillo and Ibarruri, he only returned once Fat Frank was a stiffy.
Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol). I know there were rumours that the Frente Atletico were/are right wing, and the club may have had some involvement with the Air Force of Franco during the Civil War (when it was renamed Atletico Aviacion), but I was let to believe more recently that it draws its support from the South-West of the City, which is the poorer bit and many of its supporters are substantially Argentine (and other Latin American 2nd Generations) and are not pro-fascist. I think the last bit may well be true as I've spotted numerous Argentine flags at their matches, and when they played Valencia 18 months or so ago I noticed they cheered when Aimar was on the ball.
Espanyol I believe tend towards the right as they were set up to see themselves as the antisis to Barca - ie the Spanish side in Catalonia. However ironically enough this lead to many of the Spanish 'immigrants' to Catalonia supporting Barca, afterall its difficult enough moving to a new area where there is already hostility to who you are, so why not at least try to make things easier by involving yourself in the local culture by supporting locals club.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
I think that this is the synopsis that Phil Ball gives in his book Morbo about the Spanish game. (he also points out that Madrid's last president before Franco was a commnuist and that they had a large left wing support before the Civil War as Madrid itself was a fairly left wing city)
Any corrections to this I'm sure the good Senor can help!
Éanna has actually written a very good and (suprisingly:D) balance thesis/essay on this before, he (for once in his life) speaks sense on this subject
All I have to say is
Catalonia Supports London 2012
Best Banner EVER
it was excellent alright. BTW, try telling a Catalan that the olympics were in Spain in 1992 :eek: It drives them nuts :DQuote:
Originally Posted by SÓC
Espanyol are very firmly right wing- well their ultras are anyway, and as was said above, the club was founded in opposition to the foreigners (Swiss & English) who founded Barca- hence the name "Espanyol." The full name of the club is Real Club Deporitvo Espanyol- Royal Spanish Sporting Club literally.They did call themselves Español for a long time, but then changed it to Espanyol, the Catalan spelling of the word, in a token effort at reconciliation with Catalanists.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Pathetico Madrid are a strange lot. They were called Ath. Aviacion at one stage when, as far as i know, Franco's brother was involved with them. The Frente Pathetico are very right wing, not far behind the Ultras Sur, the Boixos Nois and The Gijon Ultras (name escapes me) as Roberto Carlos will testify thanks to the grunts he got from them.
their president until a few years back was Jesus Gil, one of the most insane right wing politicians in spain- he was best buddys with Franco- who pardoned him and released him from jail after his holiday apartments collapsed and killed 50-something people (they'd been built without planning permission, or the use of an architect). he was also the Mayor of marbella, was linked with the Russian mafia and called his party the Grupo Independiente Liberalista (Independent liberal group)- strange for a man with such right wing views, until you realise that the name was shortened to his own surname G.I.L. Not that he had an ego or anything ;)
Also, Gil is responsible for one of the best comments ever- in an interview shortly after he'd had a bypass, he got rather excited, and when the interviewer told him to calm down, he replied "They can shove my heart up their arses." Charming fella :)
which is the bigger match for the fans, the Madrid derby or Barca-Real?