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Cork City manager Pat Dolan admits that the club’s substandard training facilities could have contributed to their failure to claim the eircom League title in 2004.
Cork missed out on their first title in 11 years by just three points, and Dolan feels that better facilities could have made the difference between winning the title and finishing as runners-up to Shelbourne.
http://www.eleven-a-side.com/premier...p?newsid=15475
To be fair, Im sure Dolan cannot say more than 4-5 sentences without sneakily getting the words 'training facilities' and 'lack of' in there.
What he says has merit though. If City have aspirations of glory, a proper, purpose built training facility is essential.
yes,thats true.
wasnt the rebel army buissness drive something to do with the percurement of funds for this purpose?
what is/has happened on that front?
City have won things without a training ground of their own. Surely there is some facility that is good enough for him in the City because a new one isn't going to be built over night.
Dolan needs to stop moaning about all the obstacles he and the team face and get on with his job.
You're right NiamhQuote:
Originally Posted by niamh
But there are some decent facilities in Cork. What about the floodlit allweather place that hosts the Nightowls for example?
Quote:
Originally Posted by niamh
I dunno though.... I mean most junior clubs would have a place to train at minimum, or be aiming that way at least. It does seem like a bog standard thing to have, being a football club and all. I wouldn’t trivialize it at all, infact enabling the club to give the manager of their football team to give an excuse is what I’d be more worries about.
I am not getting at the club and I do realise the situation but having a training pitch is a bog standard requirement if it is a football club and there is no getting away from that,
I think its a fair enough comment for Dolan to make. He has made the point ever since coming to cork and it must be a big problem if he is going on about it so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by niamh
It would be a much stronger comment if the excuse 'we might of won if things were different' wasn't included.
Despite that, we’ve been able to have success – the frustrating thing for me is, the training facilities last year, could they have been worth an extra three points? If they could have been, we’d have been champions.
If he had said "we'll we didn't beat Shels last season and that cost us the title, if we had had better training facilities we might of been able to beat them but we didn’t, this is something we are looking into and will be rectifying to ensure Cork City FC has a fair chance next year. It could come down to three points again and next time well be ready"
Soundbite man we know he is and it comes as part and parcel of Pat Dolan. Silly quote to give in my opinion, if we were to use his logic well then Cork could of won it for the last few years only for the training facilities and the rain and the black cat and the ...............
Don't want to hear excuses. We have a press officer to make excuses not a manager.
So where do City train lads? Excuse my ignorence but do they genuinely not own ANY training facility? I thought Bishopstown was used for training :confused:
Where is Dolan using the training facilities as an excuse for not winning the league?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dricky
Read what you have written down.
He asked a rhetorical question: "could better training facilites have been worth 3 points?". Not an excuse, simply musing on how improved facilities MIGHT have changed the title race.
If that question was able to be answered in the affirmative, then we would have won the league.
Please point out where he said "We didn't win the league because we lost an extra 3 points by not having the training facilities".
We took two points off shels last year, that is something he could of done something about in that season. The training facilities we could do nothing about. He claims that if we had the training facilities it could of been worth 3 points to us.
Now this is where I will infuriate some, others I know will agree.
If Pat was the professional manager, (which we do need as a pro team) well then he wouldn't be coming out with such tripe. We know the shortcomings of Cork City.
IF IF IF is all it is,
rhetorical, well why doesn't he go rhetorical on the 'we only took two points of Shels'
We are a pro team, he is meant to be a pro manager, rhetorical doesn't come into it, he doesn't have that comfort. He is judged on his achievements. (I do believe he deserved to keep his job as we did reach second).
If the mini crisis hadn't happened mid season we wouldn't have dropped as many points. That to me is what he should be questioning but hell no we can't question Pat's ability.
Playing for a draw in Dublin on more than one occasion that I would question more?
THe Fenn debate
Corks best 11.
These were his responsibility and he hasn't ever said we came up short here.
How would training facilities improve him as a manager? yes the team would improve but his shortcomings would still be there.
He used that soundbite so he can take any pressure off himself as this is what the fans will hear. He is not as good a manager as is needed by Cork City, we all know that the training facilities aren't there and maybe it did cost us 3 points, some of his tactics cost us more than 3 points so maybe he should of used the knowledge of our disadvantage and played for wins in certain matches instead of the draw.
Cork City did not win the el last year because of shortcomings in the team, we know we are far from the finished article but Pat put your hand up as well.
He claimed no such thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dricky
Again, READ what you posted that he said.
He ASKED a question: "[size=3]could[/size] they have been worth an extra three points?"
He doesn't know, I don't, do you?
Could better training facilities have been worth a few extra points to us?
What has listing out all the things you think Dolan could have done, got to to with your claim that he made training facilities an excuse?
You didn't answer the question, so I'll repeat it: Please point out where he said "We didn't win the league because we lost an extra 3 points by not having the training facilities".
more excuse mongering, just get on with it dolan you've won nothing with cork, and your three years is nearly up! :eek:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dricky
Ah come Dricky ... its a bit more than that ..... i wont say it is cold fact but no matter what way you look at it, training facilities must/will/a dead cert to make it easier for City ... converting it to points is another seperate step but both are closely related.
There is no harm in Dolan reminding everyone that we dont have the infacstructure. If it getting anyone in gear and motivate them enough to resolve the "problem" (that is was it is, no matter how long it has existed) .... in fact he doesn't remind people enough IMO.
Read again what he say
Despite that, we’ve been able to have success – the frustrating thing for me is, the training facilities last year, could they have been worth an extra three points? If they could have been, we’d have been champions.
Why does he even bring it up that is what you are missing the point on, Pat is famous for deflecting critisism, ask any StPats fan, they will tell you the same.
That word IF is in his quote
IF IF IF IF IF
Pat Dolins comments were about thing the could of been.
The things that were are the things we had to deal with, he knew at the begining of the el that those trainning facilities weren't there so whats the point in the comment. That is where you have missed my point Patsh, what he came out with was a soundbite, that soundbite is now planted in everyones head, he had all this information and still points it out. We deal in reality he is being rhetorical, instead of dealing with he's poor team selection for some matches as well as poor tactics. They are things we and he knows cost us points. No if's, no buts, no what could of been. THat is what he should be talking about, as at the begining of his contract he had the same information about the training facilities.
His quote is
Despite that, we’ve been able to have success – the frustrating thing for me is, the training facilities last year, could they have been worth an extra three points? If they could have been, we’d have been champions.
What should frustrate him something he knew wasn't available to him???
Or
Only taking 2 points off SHels. Had beaten Shels we wouldn't be talking about this.
Using his formula for the quotes if I say "If those training facilities were not there and we had not lost two of our games to Shels, would we be champions?"
So what is the point to his statement??? Had we played to win, would we have won???? with or without training facilities we would of had a much better chance of winning a match if we were to play to win instead of playing for a draw and losing.
Do you see were I'm coming from??
I haven't missed your point. You said Dolan used the lack of training facilites as an excuse for not winning the league.
He has done no such thing.
You can say what you like about what Dolan should have done, but your main point was that you "Don't want to hear excuses". Dolan did not make any excuse.
There would be more strength in him not even saying it, as we already knew it.Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
Had he delt with the mid season slump better and more like a pro well then the training facillities wouldn't even be brought up.
Now that it is in the press/media that is what will be gone back too, he is not a Pro, maybe in time he will be but it was a comment passed to deflect from himself, there were thing he could of done something about where is his talk about that?????????
Apologies for jumping in here...
Surely as manager, Dolan is entitled to point out shortcomings within the club? If he feels the facilities need improving, surely there's no point sitting around and hoping someone will read his mind? He's not using it as an excuse for last season, more ensuring that he won't have to use it as an excuse for next season...
That's the way I see it anyway.
I suppose we should be glad our club aspires to winning the league next season. So many clubs that also once had that aspiration now will be just glad to survive next season. ;)
Don't want to hear excusesQuote:
Originally Posted by patsh
there is another piece on that which makes the point not just half it.
We have a press officer for that
Had he said nothing about the training facilities I would say nothing, these did not lose us points or gain us points they don't exsist so deal with what we do have.
Patsh, "Don't want to hear excuses" is not my main point it is part of a little foot note main points don't normally come at the end of a piece.
Don't want to hear excusesQuote:
Originally Posted by patsh
there is another piece on that which makes the point not just half it.
We have a press officer for that
Had he said nothing about the training facilities I would say nothing, these did not lose us points or gain us points they don't exsist so deal with what we do have.
Patsh, Don't want to hear excuses is not my main point it is part of a little foot note main points don't normally come at the end of a piece.
That is what we pay him for. If he does come out with If and coulds well then he has to look at himself as well. He knew when he signed they weren't available what was available was a team that can play to win go out with the tactic of playing to draw and you risk playing to lose. THat is something that can be dealt with now in the short term that would affect our long term objectives, why doesn't he talk about that, they are not If's or coulds they are what happened.
Again it was a soundbite from Pat, where did he talk about things he can affect as a manager??????????????????
That is what we pay him for. If he does come out with If and coulds well then he has to look at himself as well. He knew when he signed they weren't available what was available was a team that can play to win go out with the tactic of playing to draw and you risk playing to lose. THat is something that can be dealt with now in the short term that would affect our long term objectives, why doesn't he talk about that, they are not If's or coulds they are what happened.
Again it was a soundbite from Pat, where did he talk about things he can affect as a manager??????????????????
What I say is Pat Dolan should be talking about what did happen and what he needs to do to improve, not something he has no control over. He at no stage has mentioned or even highlighted that he could of been the difference between 3 points here and there.
It is a very fair comment for me to make.
NoQuote:
Originally Posted by Dricky
Dolan is talking about facilities and you're talking about tactics.
WHERE did Dolan say that the training facilities were to blame for not winning the league?
WHERE did Dolan use the training facilities as an excuse for not winning the league?
Dolan is the manager of the club. He has an interest in everything. He feels the lack of proper training facilities meant that they could not perform. He makes a good point. Maybe those extra few % he could get out of the players would have made a difference in games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
That's my point. Lennox will have to put his hand into his own pocket to fund a training facility - it takes time. So instead of Dolan moaning about it AGAIN should he not be focused on an alternative solution in the short-term or adapting these training routines so they can used?
The games where we dropped vital points were about a total lack of performance rather than a couple of percent IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by harry crumb
Yes but the shortcomings that cost us points were his, if the facilities aren't there why should he even talk about three points, his job as manager is to get the best out of what he has, that is the hand a manager has to work from. There were certain matches that cost us points and he is talking about getting extra ones!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Don't spend currency you don't have.....
Playing for a draw in Dalymount was a very bad decission, we all saw what happened after that match. Should never have come to that. That is something Pat could and should of dealt with, fixing where we lost points first before making the jump to where he can get extra ones. Where is his comments on that, again he is not interested in that because it was a soundbite.
"Despite that, we’ve been able to have success"
What success? No leagues, no fai cup and no league cup. On the wider point, next season I just cant see Cork improving at a greater rate than shels or even bohs who will probably regroup under Farrelly. So in essence nothing has changed - despite all the soundbites.....
Being manager of the club shouldnt just be about first team performance.
I disagree. If he sees areas of the club which could be improved, surely he is within his rights to point this out? By making it public, maybe he's just putting extra pressure on those in charge to sort things out. Nothing more than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dricky
Again Training facilities are something he has no control over, the team he does, where are his comments on not dropping three point rather than gaining other. If, coulds and woulds don't win anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by harry crumb
He has put a quote out there and when you hear the mention of training facilities again it will because something wasn't achived.
He never mentions any of his shortcoming this is why it is a soundbite, it is a very onesided one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
HE didn't make it public we have know about it for years and years, he was paid to do a job he is talking if and coulds. The things he can deal with, well some of them were down to him, he should talk about points dropped as his soundbite does nothing but provokes questions about the chairman, he has to look at his shortcomings, does he do that?
He state that we could be champions if we had training facilities that may give us three extra points.
Had he played to win instead of the draw he would of had more of a chance of beating some teams when instead we lost. They were things he could deal with in the here and now, that is what we paid him to do.
His talk of three points and winning and what could of been.
If his point was just about training facilities, it wouldn't have mentioned what could of beens. The fact he mentions it, changes things. Again where is he critical of himself? Why has his poor choices not come up in this peice? They were the things he should deal with ass a professional manager.
Thank you someone who knows where I'm coming from. Dealing with what is thereQuote:
Originally Posted by niamh
Thank you someone who knows where I'm coming from. Dealing with what is there has not come up from him.Quote:
Originally Posted by niamh
I can see where you're coming from, but what'd be the point? "We didn't win the league because I made too few subs at crucial stages" or whatever. So what? What's saying that publicly going to achieve? Whereas having a go at the facilities might provoke some action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dricky
I'm sure he is looking at his own shortcomings as well, but there's nothing to be gained by opening your soul to the media surely?
My point is and always has been that that was a soundbite, something that had nothing to do with the preformance of the team last year. He knew when he signed his contract thats the way it was, his comments can be taken as if we had training facilities we may have won the el, if he puts this into the public domain well then comment will follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
All he did was deflect attention away from the fact the a lot more then three points were dropped because of bad decissions, that has nothing to do with training facilities. To say things could of been different was a very poor comment to make because it leaves open the idea that if Lenox had the facilities in place it could of been the difference of 3 points. We knew they wouldn't be so why pass the comment?
Exactly .... i mean ... if you cant say this in the off season, when is the best time to say it ... seriously, we could all turn around at any time of the year and say he is being opportunistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Is it not better that he says it now and highlights the problem ?
Do you think that the training facilities should be addressed at all ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dricky
Dricky ... Niamh will be the first to admit she was never a fan of Dolans, she has a reasoned opinion and makes her point very well, but there is no getting away from it, (i hope you dont mind me saying it Niamh) ... she will never be heard singing his praises from high heaven.
And i've never heard you come out straight saying the same, infact (and dont get me wrong, you are entitled to your opinion, i am not suggesting that at all) i would of had both of you down as non pro-Dolan fans (i am not saying you are anti-Dolan, just saying that you'd both never sing his praises)
And with that ..... i'd read between the lines of both your posts. Sorry ... i dont mean to judge, but i ... well, err ....ahhmm ... i judge.
Never have I claimed to be a Dolan Fan but I have always said he is entitled to a chance but when he comes out with rubbish like "could it be three points" it smacks of Dolan all over, soundbites, nothing of substance in that statement. it is hearsay and that is one of the reason I don't think he is the pro manager to take Cork City where they should be going but then he has done enough to keep his job.Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
That soundbite is a Patdolanisim, he has said it so next season that quote is in everyones mind, the shortcomming last year were not down to trainning facilities as we didn't have them he knew that then. Had he come out with training facilities may be worth three points and save the club €150,000 in rental, then the comment would of been for a good reason and have some worth.
What I want to know is what was the point to his comment, if he throws that comment in, well he then needs to question where else the other points were not gained, that big finger is pointing at him as he is the manager. When he signed up he knew this
Should we have won the el last year, no we were not good enough I don't think many will disagree about that.
So what is the point in the sh:te of "could it of been worth three points"
We are more than three points off Shels. coulds ifs buts don't win points.
SHut up and do the job first, comment after. Now I ain't asking for a Guntherisation but deal with the hear and now that is what he signed up for.
Come out with "could it be worth three points?" Your the bloody manager you should know if it is or not..... stop the if and could.
Plenty of Pats fans would see his quote and laugh, laugh so hard that they'ed need a change.
We didn't win because we weren't registered, now that is an excuse and one that has a truth to it. (instead he went on a crusade of we won we won, here a medal we made for you)
One of Pats strengths is how he can handle press and fans. He knows what the fans want to hear.
Our weekness is we print what he says in full.
and see things in what he said that aren't there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dricky
You still haven't pointed out where Dolan said that the training facilities were the reason City did not win the league last season.
Lads, ye are going around in circles.