pat fenlon has a rant

taken from ww.unison.ie he makes some very good points
and i love little asterix at the end that says pat fenlon is manager of shelbourne



League must truly embrace professional era
Wednesday January 5th 2005

Shelbourne manager Pat Fenlon was far from impressed with the way the eircom League's top brass marked his team's title triumph last year

FOOTBALL in this country has a future - and a bright one at that - but a lot needs to change at the top for our clubs to realise their ambitions.

It is frustrating to see the lack of support from Merrion Square for the likes of Shelburne, Bohemians, Cork City, St Patrick's Atheltic, Derry City and Drogheda United who are pumping so much effort and resources into their clubs because they want to move forward.

Those in charge of the game are not slow to jump on the bandwagon when a club does well in Europe, but most of them are found wanting when we want help to push the bar even higher.

Improving Ireland's co-efficient is suppose to be a key objective of the FAI and a few years ago, in an effort to help teams prepare properly for Europe, they started to give each of the four qualifiers £10,000 each.

That money is no longer available, although it is still badly needed. Getting it would help Shelbourne, for example, defray the costs of sending our players to a pre-season training camp, while part-time clubs like Longford would be able to take their players out of work for a few days before a UEFA Cup game to prepare properly.

The lack of real professionalism in the administration of the eircom League is something that really frustrates me, and other managers, because there are some really stupid things which shouldn't happen in a properly run sporting organisation.

The FAI's technical department has been advising clubs over the past few years to adopt the best practice in sports science and seminars have been run to show managers and coaches how to prepare players properly.

However, I get the impression that the eircom League are not aware of this and expect players to turn up on the first day of the season and start performing.

Three weeks after the end of the 2004 season no manager knew when the new season was going to begin or whether it would be played over three or four rounds.

At Shelbourne, this played havoc with our plans. On the Monday after our final league game of the season against St Pat's, we brought in all the players to be weighed and have their body fat checked. However, we were unable to give them a close-season programme - we didn't know when training would start because we didn't know when our first league game next season was going to be.

We also had changes to the suspension system last season without proper consultation. Players and managers weren't aware, until it started to happen, that bans kicked in after four games or that the scheme which rewarded players for going a period of games without being booked had been removed. Had that excellent system remained Barry Ferguson would have been able to captain Longford in the FAI Cup final.

The presentation of the eircom League trophy at Richmond Park on the night we clinched the title was also a shambles. Two guys held up an eircom League Champions sign while the battered trophy was presented. And, six weeks on, the Shelbourne players have yet to receive their medals.

I could go on and on, so is it any surprise that people within the clubs often wonder why they should bother trying to develop a professional game in this country when there appears to be a complete lack of support for their ambitious plans? There is a feeling that there is no strategy or plan in place for the running of professional football here; that those in charge make it up as they go along.

What's needed is a professional management team, with no affiliations to any club, to run the eircom League. I would like to see some people who have worked in the game, like Damien Richardson for example, being involved in that management team in order to provide the insight that is so sadly lacking.

What is going on at the moment is very difficult to take. But it can be changed - it must be changed.

* Pat Fenlon is the manager of Shelbourne.

Pat Fenlon

details so many of the frustrations of being a supporter of this league. for once I totally agree with Fenlon.

There was a few good articles on the EL in the Indo that day, including one from our own 'El Presidente' himself, Jim Hanley, which I think is posted below

I have to agree with the man .... But the people running our league now, we hear very little from them and half of what goes on, we never hear about.

The league needs to decide on what its doing and lay plans in place. We need a decent TV deal straight way .... and if we have to wait any longer for it, then people should step down. The fans and even more so, the clubs seem to just tolerate what ever happens, the powers that be get away with scandle after scandle .... if it is not one thing it is another.
At the very least, appear to be addressing the issues that plague the league.
While it is getting better .... there is such a long way to go, its unreal.

what a bunch of muppets the league are!fenlon has some very validpoints about the eircom league administration and the time is now ready for change.football has gone backwards since the paul marney incident!

will a proposed merger between the north and southern leagues make any difference at all to the admin side? wouldnt be confident at all myself!

I thought the Idea of involing people like Damien Richardson in running the leauge in this country was a good idea.

Nuttsy said nothing that Dolan hasn't been saying for years. Of course Dolan was called a crank, so will Nuttsy get the same sort of treatment from the league now?

Fair dues to whoever in Indo sports had the idea for running the series.
It'd be nice to see more from other media who want to support the game at home.

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Originally Posted by patsh

Nuttsy said nothing that Dolan hasn't been saying for years. Of course Dolan was called a crank, so will Nuttsy get the same sort of treatment from the league now?

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My thoughts exactly. Fenlon is right in what he's saying but Dolan comes out with this kind of thing almost every week but unfortunately nobody listens. What makes Fenlon different and why would anyone take any more notice of him than they do of Dolan?

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Originally Posted by Colm

My thoughts exactly. Fenlon is right in what he's saying but Dolan comes out with this kind of thing almost every week but unfortunately nobody listens. What makes Fenlon different and why would anyone take any more notice of him than they do of Dolan?

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You have to question that alright ... i totally agree with Fenlon but in fairness, Pat has never been afraid or tried to be opportune when i highlightng the problems with the league, he doesn't pull any punches, and that probably rocks the boat for a few people.

I presume Fenlon was just asked to do an article for the Indo, same as Declan Hanney and Jim Hanley, Dolan has his own newspaper column, no harm in hearing from other people..

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Originally Posted by Colm

What makes Fenlon different and why would anyone take any more notice of him than they do of Dolan?

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Nothing. Fenlon is merely echoing what Dolan has been saying all along. The fact that there is more than one person saying it, the eL powers might actually take more notice and do something about it.

But of course if Fenlon says anything he is wrong. No wonder people say City fans are bitter :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gary

But of course if Fenlon says anything he is wrong. No wonder people say City fans are bitter :rolleyes:

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No in fairness despite our hatred for the little freak I think all City fans will acknowledge that what he's saying is correct.

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Originally Posted by Colm

What makes Fenlon different and why would anyone take any more notice of him than they do of Dolan?

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with dolan, most of his good points get lost, because he is usually making at least one ridiculous statement every week in his star column, he also comes accross as very much a soundbyte type person (e.g stadium of light, supersaints, rebel army etc).

wheras fenlon comes accross as more reserved, therefore when he does speak in the media it carries more weight than dolan (forgive the pun)

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Originally Posted by ColinR

with dolan, most of his good points get lost, because he is usually making at least one ridiculous statement every week in his star column, he also comes accross as very much a soundbyte type person (e.g stadium of light, supersaints, rebel army etc).

wheras fenlon comes accross as more reserved, therefore when he does speak in the media it carries more weight than dolan (forgive the pun)

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Eh Dolan is a respectable well spoken and intelligent man while Fenlon is a dirty little jackeen whom a lot of people would find hard to take seriously.

Not everyone is as anti-Fenlon as you lads are..

Its all well moaning about the eircom league management but afaik the league is run by the people elected by the clubs???

If the league has problems then surely only the clubs themselves thru the elected league members can solve it???

:confused:

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What makes Fenlon different and why would anyone take any more notice of him than they do of Dolan?

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Dolan has lied before in front of the whole league.. He even had the cheek to takes his lies to court.

He got found out and I don't think he has fully recovered yet. People don't usually listen to the words of a LIAR.

I think Fenlon has conducted himself well over the past two years in front of the media and although people don't agree with him, sometimes Shels fans, he is a more credible person then the caught out LIAR...

Dolan has cried wolf enough times so people stop being interested.. Its simple

^^^

Sounds like a load of slanderous bluff which is not uncommomn from Shels people.

What lies do you speak of?

Seems like fairly serious allegations yuo are making there Higgins.

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Originally Posted by higgins

Dolan has lied before in front of the whole league.. He even had the cheek to takes his lies to court.

He got found out and I don't think he has fully recovered yet. People don't usually listen to the words of a LIAR.

I think Fenlon has conducted himself well over the past two years in front of the media and although people don't agree with him, sometimes Shels fans, he is a more credible person then the caught out LIAR...

Dolan has cried wolf enough times so people stop being interested.. Its simple

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Strong words indeed. But wouldn't that possibly apply to Ollie?

forget about the the advice from Fenlon

what about the ref's - declan hanney i think - advice that was carried in the same section .... Cuban Marxist philosophy on football ....

nutter

Pat Fenlon-'We should beat Sligo quite easily next week then we can concentrate on the league again'

Shels 2-3 Sligo Rovers

Theres only one Gareth Gorman!!!!! :p

What Fenlon says, is what most people say about our league, and is therefore right. I'd rather listen to him, than listen to DR's incomprehensible waffle on TV3 every Monday night during the season!!! :D

He didn't know when the new season would start, neither did the rest of us, but with only 3 less games, it was probably going to start at the same time as last season, which it will.

He really didn't know whether there would be 3 or 4 rounds of games next season?? Of course it was going to change to the 3 round basis. Even the buffoons in the FAI weren't going to force NL teams to play 44 league games next season over 4 rounds!! That was blindingly obvious since they changed the league to a Premier Division of 12 teams.

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Strong words indeed. But wouldn't that possibly apply to Ollie?

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Are we talking about Ollie???

I was full sure the debate was why would someone listen to Fenlon over Dolan?

Fenlon doesn't make a joke out of himself every second Monday night on TV3. Dolan is a laugh and good for TV but is full of hot air. Don't you see the new stadium St Pats are in??? Its lovely isn't it! and he lied over the registration of one Paul Marney.. He also lied to his Judge friend that the unregistration of players was commonplace within the league and was believed only to then be shown that he based this on nothing and just made it up..

I find it a silly debate anyway!
Dolan and Fenlon who would you believe??? You would know it was the close season

I totallly agree with Fenlon. The way the league is run is a complete joke. The FAI are a farce too. I cant belive some of the comments Im reading here about Fenlon who is arguable the BEST Eircom League manager EVER !!

Just wait till Shels get into the group stages of either the C.L or U.C. Where will all the nay sayers be then ?

Pat Dolan - Are you havin a laugh


FORZA SHELS :D

And this coming from the club that couldn't produce a programme for a cup match.... the league is run by the clubs, and its half-assed administration is just a reflection of the way most clubs are run. Ther league was always badly run, before the FAI ever got involved and sadly probably will be for a long time.

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

I totallly agree with Fenlon. The way the league is run is a complete joke. The FAI are a farce too. I cant belive some of the comments Im reading here about Fenlon who is arguable the BEST Eircom League manager EVER !!

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Argued by who, Pat Fenlon? Jim McLaughlin has to go down as the best manager in the League of Ireland. To be honest, Dolan is great for a soundbite and a bit of spin, but you are right, most people would probably treat Fenlon's comments with more weight but lets not get ahead of ourselves

In terms of calling the League a joke, lets start with the so called Champions.

How many times has your Chief Executive been "warned as to his future conduct"?

Shelbourne agree to sign Alan Cawley and then go to arbitration to get out of signing him.

All slagging aside, for the most succesful Dublin club and all the "free tickets for u16s" schemes your crowds are a joke. You can claim that this is just sour grapes and that your average is above ours but that is due to Dublin derbies. The cup tie in Tolka immediately after the Deportivo game had 1,100 with 100 Derry fans- crowds how are ya?

You lot are perfectly happy to ask the rules to be bent in terms of the timing of fixtures for yourselves, but cry foul if anyone else asks for it.

Need I go on? It alright crying that the League is a joke, but stop and think that you lot are partially responsible for it.

As I see it and I know both gentlemen concerned, one of the reasons that Pat D is taken less seriously than Pat F; is that while at St. Patrick's Athletic, Pat D presided over a club that could not organise registration of it's players satisfactorily. Amateur Clubs in Amateur Leagues can manage that much.
I do admire Pat D's many other achievement both on the banks of the Camac and the banks of the Lee however, but in the interests of balance one must get the basics sorted.

I agree with the thrust of what both of the Pat's have to say about the League however.
P.S. with special thanks to Maribor for mentioning a certain matter which if I had raised I would have been slagged off as my club is involved.

I think to be fair to Shelbourne, Bohemians and St.Patrick's Athletic to an extent on the crowds front , they are up against the following fact.
Dublin residents, whatever their origin, are a lazy shower of wasters who can't be bothered to stay out of a pub long enough to go to a game.

Or is this a nationwide problem ? :D

Its a big problem in Dublin. It has been for the past 25 years.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

special thanks to Maribor for mentioning a certain matter

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Don't worry CTID I'm less reserved than you.

I agree with what Pat's said. Bud I do also think that Shels are just as unprofessional as anyone else in the league. Aswell as the Alan Cawley incedent it should also be pointed out that Shelbourne don't (or at least didn't) have any flood insurance on Tolka Park.

It's easy for Pat F. to criticise the league for not giving a much neened and deserved 10,000 pounds to euro qualifiers, but that type of money is just as needed and deserved when a clubs young players are signed by a bigger club. And it might be hard for the league to find such money when thay're paying for flood damage in Tolka Park.

Much as it pains me to make an even slightly pro-$hels observation, I hope you're not studying insurance out there in Belfield.
Would you quote for flood cover on Tolka?

Anyway, the point that the league is a shambles because its clubs are a shambles is a fair one.

BTW. Where did the cup get damaged?

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Argued by who, Pat Fenlon? Jim McLaughlin has to go down as the best manager in the League of Ireland. To be honest, Dolan is great for a soundbite and a bit of spin, but you are right, most people would probably treat Fenlon's comments with more weight but lets not get ahead of ourselves

In terms of calling the League a joke, lets start with the so called Champions.

How many times has your Chief Executive been "warned as to his future conduct"?

Shelbourne agree to sign Alan Cawley and then go to arbitration to get out of signing him.

All slagging aside, for the most succesful Dublin club and all the "free tickets for u16s" schemes your crowds are a joke. You can claim that this is just sour grapes and that your average is above ours but that is due to Dublin derbies. The cup tie in Tolka immediately after the Deportivo game had 1,100 with 100 Derry fans- crowds how are ya?

You lot are perfectly happy to ask the rules to be bent in terms of the timing of fixtures for yourselves, but cry foul if anyone else asks for it.

Need I go on? It alright crying that the League is a joke, but stop and think that you lot are partially responsible for it.

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Typical bitter anti Shels derry tosser. What exactly has crowds got to do with how the league is run? What had Ollie got to do with anything that was said in the debate? You make a good point and go and waste it by going on a vintage meaningless rant about Crowds. Our average is above yours, as you correctly pointed out, and under 16s do not get into Tolka for free.

Sorry Slash,

In truth my point with regards crowds relates to a post of jollyrodgers a months back. Crowds certainly do have an effect on the way the league is running. Witness yourselves being allowed to rearrange a game against Bray a few years back to play a friendly, and Ollie moaning several weeks ago when the format of the twelve team league was announced that Shels would lose valuable gate revenue due to the fact that there were fewer games

Ollie has a lot to do with the points originally made. He complains that the League is a shambles. Ollie's bullying tactics and double standards are all part and parcel of the manner in which the League is viewed by some parts of the media, and therefore by extension the public at large.

Typical anti-shels? Apologies, should I lie down and plead forgiveness before the greatest team in the land? I deliberately tried to make points relating to incidents which didn't involve Derry and I am sure that fans of every club could add their own to the list.

While you may arguably accuse me of being anti-Shels, do not mistake it for a bitter and twisted rant. My initial point related to the bemoaning "woah is us, if it wasn't for the administration we would be in the Champions League" attitude of your fellow fans. All clubs, fans, players and the administration as a whole are responsible for the state of the league.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Sorry Slash,

In truth my point with regards crowds relates to a post of jollyrodgers a months back. Crowds certainly do have an effect on the way the league is running. Witness yourselves being allowed to rearrange a game against Bray a few years back to play a friendly, and Ollie moaning several weeks ago when the format of the twelve team league was announced that Shels would lose valuable gate revenue due to the fact that there were fewer games

Ollie has a lot to do with the points originally made. He complains that the League is a shambles. Ollie's bullying tactics and double standards are all part and parcel of the manner in which the League is viewed by some parts of the media, and therefore by extension the public at large.

Typical anti-shels? Apologies, should I lie down and plead forgiveness before the greatest team in the land? I deliberately tried to make points relating to incidents which didn't involve Derry and I am sure that fans of every club could add their own to the list.

While you may arguably accuse me of being anti-Shels, do not mistake it for a bitter and twisted rant. My initial point related to the bemoaning "woah is us, if it wasn't for the administration we would be in the Champions League" attitude of your fellow fans. All clubs, fans, players and the administration as a whole are responsible for the state of the league.

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Well I still don't see the connection between crowds and this debate or why the team with the third highest attendence is the one you're having a go at but how and however.

Ollie complains that the way the league is run is shambolic, and he is right. Ollie may use bully boy tactics and is certinaly far from ethical with the stuff he does, he does it for the good of Shels and nobody else, but at least he's competent, ruthlessly so. The point he makes is that the people running the league haven't got a clue and he is right. The point Fenlon made about fixtures and starting dates is spot on and is absolutley shambolic. Also the 12 team league system is a joke, playing each other three times is a farce. Can you imagine the whinging if Cork lose by a point to Shels and had to play twice in Tolka and once in the cross?

I'm sure fans of every club could reel of a list and I could do the same for Derry, such as treatment of away fans at the Brandywell or pre contract agreements, but that's another debate. Once again I'll point out Ollie wasn't even part of this debate until a vintage blinkered anti Shels Derry fan rant seemed to want to bring him up. It was only about Fenlon and Dolan.

I agree with your last point but again the point being made is that the FAI are incompetent, Shels are far from that. Shels are very professional and very well run, the problem is they're too well run for the incompetent people at the FAI and so are capable of getting their own way at times. It's not our responsibility to look out for what's fair for everyone, we're trying to look out for ourselves, it's upto the FAI to ensure fairness. Stuff like not knowing how many fixtures we'd have or when the league would start is incompetence, something you can't level at Shels.

And never, not once, have I seen anybody say Shels would be in the champions league if it wasn't for the FAI.

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Originally Posted by Slash/ED

Can you imagine the whinging if Cork lose by a point to Shels and had to play twice in Tolka and once in the cross?

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were city fans whinging about having to play in inchicore twice in 98/99? No. We did what we have always done and just got on with it. Finally, since Dolan came to Cork, and Lennox took over the club, we have people who will stand up to the powers that be- thats justifiable grievances Slash, not whinging. I'm sure if the reverse were to happen, Ollie Byrne wouldn't object..........oh no, wait. Thats the guy who managed to have a go at the team who finished 3rd in the aftermath of his own team retaining the title for the first time ever- now thats a whinger.

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Originally Posted by Éanna

were city fans whinging about having to play in inchicore twice in 98/99? No. We did what we have always done and just got on with it. Finally, since Dolan came to Cork, and Lennox took over the club, we have people who will stand up to the powers that be- thats justifiable grievances Slash, not whinging. I'm sure if the reverse were to happen, Ollie Byrne wouldn't object..........oh no, wait. Thats the guy who managed to have a go at the team who finished 3rd in the aftermath of his own team retaining the title for the first time ever- now thats a whinger.

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I never said Shels wouldn't whinge too, or you wouldn't be right too :)

The fact is the system is stupid if a title is decided by 3 points or less in favour of a team who had two home games against their rivals, it's not fair. You can justifibley say the league may not be a true reflection of the strenghts of the teams, in a 12 team league the old saying the league never lies isn't true because an unfair advantage is being handed to one of the teams. And yeah I'll still be saying that if Shels win the league by a small margin over Cork and played them twice in Tolka, it simply isn't fair and is down right stupid.

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Originally Posted by Slash/ED

I never said Shels wouldn't whinge too, or you wouldn't be right too :)

The fact is the system is stupid if a title is decided by 3 points or less in favour of a team who had two home games against their rivals, it's not fair. You can justifibley say the league may not be a true reflection of the strenghts of the teams, in a 12 team league the old saying the league never lies isn't true because an unfair advantage is being handed to one of the teams. And yeah I'll still be saying that if Shels win the league by a small margin over Cork and played them twice in Tolka, it simply isn't fair and is down right stupid.

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fair enough then. but lads, correct me if I'm wrong- the league is run by the clubs, so they voted this in. So basically, they're arguing with themselves :confused:

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Originally Posted by Slash/ED

I never said Shels wouldn't whinge too, or you wouldn't be right too :)

The fact is the system is stupid if a title is decided by 3 points or less in favour of a team who had two home games against their rivals, it's not fair. You can justifibley say the league may not be a true reflection of the strenghts of the teams, in a 12 team league the old saying the league never lies isn't true because an unfair advantage is being handed to one of the teams. And yeah I'll still be saying that if Shels win the league by a small margin over Cork and played them twice in Tolka, it simply isn't fair and is down right stupid.

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I agree with what you're saying to some extent Slash/ED, but you're in danger of tying yourself in knots here.

If Shels win the league next year over Cork by a small margin and play them twice at Tolka, it simply isn't fair and is down right stupid ? You only won the league this (2004) season by a similar margin, but managed to play Dublin City home and 'away' at your own ground, thus arguably giving you an unfair advantage due to their inability to have a suitable home ground (admittedly not your fault). Is that then unfair and downright stupid ? If playing more games at home than someone else delivers an unfair advantage, which it more than arguably does, then clearly it is ? If Drogheda win the league next year by 3 points over Shamrock Rovers, with the Hoops playing home games at United Park, is that any less unfair or stupid than the swings and roundabouts of a 12-team league's fixtures ? Yet where's the complaints about ground-sharing.....?

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While you may arguably accuse me of being anti-Shels

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That's the understatement of the year Maribor!! Even if it is only 9 days old... Dragging crowds into an argument about Fenlon and Dolan is fairly pathetic. As pointed out we have the 3rd highest attendance out of the 22 league clubs? Where are Derry on this list and what gives you the right to criticise our crowds. I like an answer to this as your comments certainly appear to be from a 'bitter and twisted' derry fan as you put it.

Was it not derry who played a friendly shortly before an away game in Europe a few seasons back?? How professional was that when you take into account that the whole leagues coefficient suffers and we boarder on the seeded/unseeded margin? It was hardly proper preparation and certainly played a part in the loss.. Is that forgot about?

And you seem to have the impression that fenlon is talking about shels in the article. He is talking about all the league and his argument holds for every team. Where did he say we would be in the Champions League if we got our medals presented properly?? What is your problem with Shels and why bring it up in a Fenlon V Dolan thread?

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Bud I do also think that Shels are just as unprofessional as anyone else in the league. Aswell as the Alan Cawley incedent it should also be pointed out that Shelbourne don't (or at least didn't) have any flood insurance on Tolka Park

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Are you serious with this comment?? It comes from the team who build apartments on the land behind one of the goals!! How forward thinking is that? UCD fans giving us tips on professionalism in the Eircom League... Good one!