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In to-days staR
Shelbourne 2,200,000
Bohememians 1,800,000
CORKCITY 1,200,000
Drog 1,100,000
st pats 950,000
shamrock rovers 850,000
longford town 775,000
derry city 750,000
waterford 600,000
bray 525,000
ucd 400,000
finnharps 375,000
total 11,525,000
Biggest surprises in there are Drogheda and, of course, Shelbourne.
i wouldn't call shels a surprise- they make a fortune from off-field stuff. What this does highlight is how far City have to go in terms of revenue that isn't from gate receipts- we have much bigger crowds than all these other clubs, but they have bars etc that really help outQuote:
Originally Posted by jimhacker
look at Rovers....the state they are in they are pretty high up
lads there is a big difference between turnover and profit just because clubs have a high turnover dose not mean they have a big profits
e.g rovers probably have a high turnover because of having to rent a ground
Too true, shels are something like €700,000 in debt from this year alone. I think the big surprises are Derry and Longford who run thier clubs at nearly half our turnover. Theres some difference between City and Shels though.Quote:
Originally Posted by exile
show just how much they generate even with a lack of gates. we need to sort ourselves off the park big timeQuote:
Originally Posted by exile
Where did you get that figure from?Quote:
shels are something like €700,000 in debt from this year alone
To be honest, I'm even more surprised that we're bigger than Harps (and all the First Division bar Galway and Dundalk)! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhacker
Killkenny and Limerick are making by on budgets of E80k a year - actually incredible how they field a team on that amount! Monaghan are pulling in E350k from somewhere! That bar must be doing great business!
How does the 'STAR' come up with those figures??
Are they from some public records or have they obtained these from the clubs?
Im surprised that some clubs even have this information :rolleyes:
The Clubs had to record gate receipts and attendance figures this season as well as have audited accounts and make these available to the league in order to comply with the UEFA Licencing regulations this past season.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Official attendance figures revealed that there was a marked down turn in attendances in July and August this past season. Summer season 2004 has indicated that the switch to summer soccer has been a mixed blessing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I would estimate Ramblers turnover to be close to the 500k mark, that may seem like an inflated estimate but that's only because of the revenue generated by their clubhouse.
does anyone know did city break even this year or how did they do? :confused:
UEFA Licencing requires all clubs to submit annual audited accounts now - thta's possibly where they're getting them from. It doesn't say, though, if the likes of Monaghan's E350k turnover includes the nett or gross income from the bar (i.e. if it counts the bar's profit or all the bar's income, from which wages, etc. would have to be deducted, which would mean the football team operates on far less than E350k). Some of the figures are down as estimates, which could mean that the clubs didn't/haven't yet supplied accounts - which would appear to mean that they're contravening licencing (unless of course, the figures are coming from some other source). And of course, as exile pointed out, turnover and profit are very different things...Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
For the record, the full info given was -
Club............Turnover; (Full-time players, full-time admin and coaching staff)
PREMIER 2004
Shels...........2.2m (21, 10)
Bohs...........1.8m (18, 10)
Cork............1.2m (16, 3)
Drogs..........1.1m (13, 6)
Pat's...........950k (17, 12 :eek: )
Rovers........850k (7, 3)
Longford......775k (4, 0)
Derry..........750k (10, 4)
Waterford....600k (6, 4)
Dublin C.......450k est (3, 1)
FIRST 2004
Dundalk.......530k (1, 3)
Bray............525k (2, 2)
Galway........440k (0, 0)
UCD............400k (0, 1)
Harps..........375k (0, 0)
Monaghan....350k (0, 0)
Sligo...........310k (0, 3) (sounds very inefficient?)
Cobh..........300k est (0, 1)
Kildare........300k est (0, 0)
Athlone.......250k (0, 0)
Kilkenny.......80k (0, 0)
Limerick.......80k est (0, 0)
Would this be better in the eL general section?
Edit - just read CTID's explanation of the UEFA Licencing and audited accounts...same as mine...apologies! :p
SPA have more fulltime players than City and Drogs?:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
and 12 Admin staff?:eek:
SPA are being run more badly than Rovers....:rolleyes:
Diarmuid McNally our commercial manager/administrator would be the only full-timer at the club at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Great minds etc :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
It doesnt matter how many full time players you have really
What matters is the amount they are being paid. Thats a better judge of their value.
You could have the the best players in the league on part time contracs and be paying a fortune. Or you could have the 22 worst players in the league on Full Time contracts for feck all.
SPA would be far better off getting higher quality part time players for the extra money they are using to pay the average players on full time..
They would be better off spending the little money they have on the likes of andy myler and so on,,
Unless you have the money of shels cork drogheda or bohs then you would be better to stick part time, sort of like drogheda last season...
who are city's three full time coaching/technical staff?
dolan, obviously. Gunther? barbara in the office?
at the time city's 3 were. Pat Dolan (team manager), Barbara Sweeney (Office) & John Crowley (Commercial Manager)
all other positions within the club are on a part-time basis
Strange that Longford Town are listed as having no full time staff at all. Is that a typo, or does the club get outstanding value for their part time manager?
moved thread to the general forum.
Éanna
e.g rovers probably have a high turnover because of having to rent a ground[/QUOTE]
Ehh ? Turnover basically means 'total money coming in' (i.e. before deductions). Renting someone else's ground would have a negative impact upon turnover (unless you were packing-in dramatically more fans than you otherwise could. Unlikely...)
Main surprises in there for me were :
ROVERS
- How the hell are they so high, having to pay part of their gate revenues in rental and having no commercial facilities of their own to generate cash with ?
DROGHEDA
- Again - how were they so high ? I know they charge hefty admission rates, but their crowds were at or below average for most of the season, and they didn't even have a shirt sponsor until the Cup Semi-final !
HARPS
- How were they lower than UCD, given the gap in average crowds between the 2 ? The mind boggles....
I may well be wrong here, but anyone who knows the League will find some of the stats presented 'interesting'. Looks like a significant degree of 'guess-work' involved in those figures. Since when do businesses have nice-round turnover figures anyway (and if the author did have site of actual accounts, why didn't they list the actual figures ?).
Presumably their turnover was before paying rent, so that would only affect profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
UCD run the Superleague (internal football league in the college) - presumably this money is included in our turnover, but then there are decent costs which go with it (e.g. renting pitches, insurance, etc.). If this is the case, then the figures would be more realistic if we could get them in the form of club income (i.e. gate receipts, merchandise, etc.) and nett fundraising. Still, as a start, it's interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
One thing to note re Harps and us - Harps' average gate per here was 1,106. Times that by 17 and then by E7 (say, being an average ticket price between adults, children and freebies) and you only get E130,000. Prize money would have been negligible, add in some for merchandise and you're still looking at the fact that the biggest team (and presumably by extension, all teams) in the First Division last year must have had more than 50% of its income coming from fundraising. Which really shows how important those people who go out selling half-time draw tickets, etc. are!
One thing to note re Harps and us - Harps' average gate per here was 1,106. Times that by 17 and then by E7 (say, being an average ticket price between adults, children and freebies) and you only get E130,000. Prize money would have been negligible, add in some for merchandise and you're still looking at the fact that the biggest team (and presumably by extension, all teams) in the First Division last year must have had more than 50% of its income coming from fundraising. Which really shows how important those people who go out selling half-time draw tickets, etc. are![/QUOTE]
You're missing out sponsorship and ground advertisement here, which are big sources of revenue. Also - you're only looking at League games in the above - I'm not sure how many home League Cup & Cup games Harps had, but if we assume a total of 4, with the money split after costs, that's another E20K revenue to add in (assumes lower than average crowds for League Cup & higher than average for FAI Cup, with the 2 balancing out). In total, should add over another 50% to the above figures(assuming a figure of E25K for shirt sponsorship, and E25k for all other advertising/sponsorship deals over the year). That still leaves a big gap to the E375K figure quoted. Whilst your point about fundraising being vital is right, I really can't see how it could bring in more than gate recipts over a year at any club. Not all fans participate in fundraising, and those that do on average would donate much less than their annual expenditure on admission.
For perspective (apologies if this is dull ) : I used to work at a Students Union in an out-of-town University campus in England : we had a captive audience of 6,000 students who were there over 30 weeks of the year (incl. 1,500 living on campus), a 150 capacity bar open every day, a 400 capacity nightclub rammed 4 nights a week, a busy cafeteria open all day, a travel shop that was a legend in terms of cash-generation, a very popular convenience shop, major events, Balls and gigs for thousands of people throughout the year, a very busy non-term trading period for staff, Open University local-events etc, plus other sponsorship deals, vending/gaming machines etc etc. We still only turned over £4m a year at our height (E6.6m). Shels are generating a third of that total through having an in-stadium captive-audience of c. 2,500 (I've averaged out the European attendances) for no more than 60-70hrs TOTAL in a season (i.e. 8-9 trading days for retail outlets) , plus all their other non-matchday activities. Big European run aside, the figure for Shels and some other clubs really surprises me.
True - away game v. Shels in the Cup; LC games v youz, Monaghan, Sligo and Longford...E25k might be a bit low for shirt sponsorship - they had an open draw at E100 a pop or something, which was a good idea - but not too far off. So my E130k plus E20k tops for Cup games plus E25k for shirt sponsorship plus E25k for other sponsorship plus E15k prize money plus merchandise and programme (can't see that being too much more than E10k) - that's still only E225k. You'd be surprised what fundraising can do though - we have a dinner every year which has had about 400 people the last two years each paying E120 a head - that's nearly E50k. If that's the figure in turnover, then it's very distorting because the profit to us after paying for meals and room in a four or five star hotel as well as guest speakers would be a lot less. A couple of big fundraisers could bridge the gap very easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Look at us - average gate of 300, probably only 200 paying in at an average of say E7 - 16*200*7=E22.4k. Maybe the same again after including a couple of big Cup games. There's our dinner "bringing in" that for a start. Our average gates are actually more than half the First Division, so most First Division clubs are in our position. Gate receipts are really only a small part of an eL club's income, sadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Longford Town have no full-time staff. All down to the hard work of 10-15 volunteers.
I reckon those figures arent right at all. How could shels lose so much money on so little turnover?
Also if you take away the estimated european money you are left with not much money in the equation. Thats if they are including european earnings??
What's the craic with Shels losing money? Only time I've heard of that (or them being in debt) was on this thread.
Earnings would have to include Europe, I suppose. Was it E500k they were talking about earning from Depor alone?
What I'd heard was that until the Depor game they had large debts but that tie more or less cleared them off, I don't know how true that is though.
Well they were certainly in bother at the start of the season, so there were all them stories of going cap in hand to get money from fans sponsors etc. And Ollie's moans about the lost of home games when we move back to 12 teams and the revenue he will lose due to this means that money is hardly flushQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Remember at the end of last season, Shels had just won the league and asked the players to take a pay cut and Ollie said the'y have to reconsider the full time set up? Obvisously the Eurpoean run has meant that the problem did not arise again, but if they don't go so well in Europe this season...
I'd say those figures are pretty well of the "journo looks at squads etc and guesstimates a figure" variety.
The turnover for Harps bears no resemblance to reality.
Also, anyone interested in financial transparency, Finn Harps will, as always, publish their full audited accounts at their AGM in the next month.
TG
I may be completely wrong, but I read that article in the Star at the time and I'm sure they related to the projected running costs for the individual clubs for next season as opposed to turnover/profit for the season just gone. :confused:
Well, for a couple of matches last season we didn't...Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Just had a look at Harps' accounts which were produced at the AGM on Sunday last. Total income for Harps was €376,164. Of this, €148,296 (39.4%) came in on gate receipts/season ticket sales, €82,067 (21.8%) came in from Sponsorship and advertising while profit from Lotto/Half-time draws/500 Club/Monster Christmas Draw/Golf Classic/Indoor Soccer Tournament/Night at the Dogs/Programme Sales showed a total of €118,560 (31.5%). Other income totalled €27,241. It just goes to show, as Pineapple Stu said, that clubs income from gate receipts is just a small proporition of the total income. The hardy soles who go out week in, week out selling lotto tickets, etc. are the ones who keep every club going.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
That matches almost exactly with the 375,000 posted at the start of this thread. It looks like the figures there are accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by harps1954
As I noted in another thread though, the figure released by Harps on Sunday was not even known by our treasurer till a few days ago when the final audtited accounts came back from the accountant. It was also a good bit less that the figure, which would have been public knowledge, from last year (as last years account also included the tailend of the 03/04 season and the playoffs 2 weeks).
If they'd quoted last years figure near enough you could say they did their homework, but as it is they either psychic or 375k is a lucky guess.
Your treasurer didn't even have a idea what the top line turnover was before the audit was done? Surely the management figures would have given him a good idea?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_T
course he had a good idea, but i can assure you he didn't tell it to the Daily star some weeks ago. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy