Wenger to Blame?

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07/12/2004, 12:46 PM
fergalr

Wenger to Blame?

With Arsenal needing to win tonight there's been a lot of media discussion about their failings in Europe over the past few years.

What I find curious is that there never seems to be a suggestion that Wenger is to blame. Is it not possible that while he's sussed out how to be successful in the premiership, his man-management and tactical skills are in fact shown up to be woefully inadequate for the bigger CL stage?

Apart from being slagged off for never seeing any controversial incidents involving his own players, how does he never seem to get his fair share of media criticism?

Just wondering .....
07/12/2004, 12:52 PM
Risteard

I dunno.

There seems to be lots of faith put in the continental managers in England, of late.
The tolerance of Sven, and the lack of media criticism, in comparison to, say Robson or Taylor is stunning.

However, two points.
1. Its Wengers best performers who let him down when the going gets tough ie, Viera & Henry.
2. Losing two games in a season and a half is no crisis.
07/12/2004, 1:31 PM
Troy.McClure

If you buy players that couldnt make it on the contanent as most of his buys have been (Berkamp excepted, but he's old & the young players are just out of their youth teams) then you've got to expect trouble when you play contanental teams. Arsenals style suits England not Europe. I dont like Arsenal so Ive got no sympathy :D
07/12/2004, 1:34 PM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risteard

However, two points.
1. Its Wengers best performers who let him down when the going gets tough ie, Viera & Henry.
2. Losing two games in a season and a half is no crisis.

1. Totally agree, Onrey in particular doesn't perform against quality
2. Losing two league games in a season and a half - they did lose other games in that period

Additionally, to criticise the english teams too much for not performing in Europe would be admitting that the premiership isn't nearly as good as they (the UK media) make out.
07/12/2004, 2:31 PM
Karlos

Henry & Big Games

Yeah your right, Mr. Henry doesn't perform in big games against big teams - the stats even back you up!

2 goals Vs Inter Milan (away) Champions League
3 goals Vs Roma (away) Champions League
1 goal Vs Juventus (Home) Champions League
2 goals Vs Valencia (1 Home, 1 Away) Champions League
3 goals Vs Deportivo (2 Home, 1 Away) Champions League
1 goal Vs Bayern Munich (Home) Champions League
1 goal Vs Bayer Leverkusen (Home) Champions League

And that's just the so-called big ones!

An then there's his record against the big four

Man Utd
Chelsea
Liverpool
Newcastle

(you can check the stats on that yourself but needless to say it includes a hat-trick vs Liverpool, a lob over Barthez, a dance around cudicini and a dink over Given amongst others)

Since 1999, Thierry has averaged a goal every 1.6 games for Arsenal including winning 2 golden boots, having the most goal assists in the premierships and never scoring under 20 goals in a season for the Gooners!

So as far as big games go, that would be as the french would say, speaking 'Le Ballcock!'

:D
07/12/2004, 2:35 PM
Macy

Okay, get your statometer out and give us the breakdown of those European goals against big teams in the knock out stages. If they prove me wrong they prove me wrong....
07/12/2004, 2:48 PM
cullenswood

I'm with Macy,

Henry has the knack of rising to the small occasion but in the knock-out games of the Champions League for Arsenal, and the World Cup and European Championships for France he has always gone missing, preferriing to stamp his foot and wave his hands in the air.
07/12/2004, 2:56 PM
Karlos

[QUOTE=Macy]1. Totally agree, Onrey in particular doesn't perform against quality

Apologies, I forgot the group stages don't count! sides like Inter Milan, Roma, Valencia, Deportivo, Bayern Munich only become quality after December even with the same personnel......yeah.

You said he didn't perform against quality (nothing about knockout stages!)....

I'm saying that those opposition are quality and where all big games. You need to look at games in context. I don't consider Liverpool a huge game at present but last year after being beaten by Chelsea and Man Utd it became a massive game and Henry scored a hat-trick and performed outstanding. The game against Inter Milan was the same and a place where they have never conceeded 5 goals in their history in Europe. Likewise Juventus & Bayern were massive games in the 2nd group phase and Valencia was in the Quarter Finals.

I don't think you can dispute the validity of these games and not to mention his contribution and assists in other games

so I take it then that tonight is not a big game for Arsenal seeing as it is a group game????
07/12/2004, 3:05 PM
Karlos

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullenswood

I'm with Macy,

preferriing to stamp his foot and wave his hands in the air.

I remember him actually waving his hands in the air in '98 and 2000 with a massive peice of silverware after scoring goals in both the World Cup and Euro 2000 to help France pick up both cups not to mention his golden boot performances in winning a 2 league championships, 2 FA Cups and 2 PFA awards in a row!!

So is the Sun or the Mirror you read?

The facts are there for themselves - 4 tournaments, 2 winners medals, scored goals in 3 of the 4 tournaments.

So you would leave him out of your team if you had him for the BIG games!!!!

c'mon!
07/12/2004, 5:11 PM
Troy.McClure

Has he ever scored in the World Cup finals? Im just wondering here but I didnt think that he really featured in 98 and 02 was laughable. I cant exactly remember him setting the world alight in Euro 2000 either and Im not even going to bother bringing up Euro 2004.

Obviously domestically he's one of the best but in Europe he doesnt do it really, he's a long way off Ruud or Raul. You've probably listed all of his goals in the CL in your list KarlosIRL.

Saying that though the official Arsenal site says that he's got 28 goals in 45 European games in the last 4 years. I find that very hard to believe :confused:
07/12/2004, 9:07 PM
Karlos

Henry got 3 goals at the World Cup in 1998 and also got 3 goals at Euro 2000 finishing joint 3rd top golascorer behind Patrick Kluivert and Savo Milosevic.

He's scored 28 european goals for Arsenal (although many wouldn't be counted here because they were in the meaningless group stages!!!!)

His average is 6.5 goals in the champions league each season.

As for the comparison with Ruud and Raul - one might suggest that as we have never finished out of the top two in 6 years - he hasn't had the luxury of bagging a hatful against a second rate hungarian team like Ruud and Raul have over the last few years in the pre-champions league qualifiers! That siad, their records are phenomenal but Ruud like Henry hasn't a medal to show for it all afterall. Maybe Raul could donate one of his three to both of them. ;)

I still think he could get more goals than he does in some big games but his all round play and record speaks for itself. Only a bias against the player or his club could make you suggest other than what the facts say. He is a WORLD CLASS player who delivers regulary at the highest level and like all other top performers has his off days but when he evntually hangs up his boots he will boast a record and collection of medals that others could only dream about.
07/12/2004, 9:41 PM
Risteard

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

so I take it then that tonight is not a big game for Arsenal seeing as it is a group game????

No, not at all.
It was never gonna be.

The above points are correct.
I said he doesn't perform when the going gets tough.
Can't think of him ever dragging Arsenal through a match (like Viera USED to do).
I'm sure someone may be able to recall one or two but thats insufficient.
Its a shame how several of the younger French players got an attitude and lost the heads circa 2002. Henry doesn't want to know sometimes.
He is twice the talent VanNistleroy is but i'd rather have Ruud in my first 11 due to his workrate and consistency.
07/12/2004, 11:01 PM
CollegeTillIDie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macy

1. Totally agree, Onrey in particular doesn't perform against quality
2. Losing two league games in a season and a half - they did lose other games in that period

Additionally, to criticise the english teams too much for not performing in Europe would be admitting that the premiership isn't nearly as good as they (the UK media) make out.

The Premiership is crap! One European Champions League victory since 1992 since they started pumping millions into it? It is not even as good as the old fashioned original English League Division One.

Compare that with the period from 1977 to 1989 when English clubs dominated winning in 1977,1978, Liverpool, 1979,1980, Nottm Forest, 1981 Liverpool Again, 1982 Aston Villa, and 1984 Liverpool again , they won 7 Cups in 12 seasons and had relatively little money compared to recent times.
The English clubs , post Heysel were banned in 1986-1989.
08/12/2004, 8:21 AM
Karlos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risteard

Can't think of him ever dragging Arsenal through a match (like Viera USED to do).

Its a shame how several of the younger French players got an attitude and lost the heads circa 2002. Henry doesn't want to know sometimes.
He is twice the talent VanNistleroy is but i'd rather have Ruud in my first 11 due to his workrate and consistency.

France performed poor for a number of reasons at World Cup 02, most of all probably Zidane's Fitness and the loss of Pires who won the PFA Award that year and then damaged his cruciate and poor performances by players including Barthez, Makelele, Desailly, Cisse, Lizarazu and yes, Henry for the 1 and a bit games he actually played in which France could still have qualified after he departed against Uraguay and then Denmark.

back to your comments, ha ha, when was the last time Ruud dragged United through a match (Like KEANE used to do!!)

C'mon out of that!

you say you can't think of Henry 'EVER' pulling Arsenal through a match then in the next sentence say well someone can probably remember one or two indicating that he has infact pulled us through a game before. I can list more than one or two occasions when he has done that for Arsenal, just like I can for Ruud and Keane and Vieria! I left my blinkers off, you see!

Henry's Drag Through Performances!

Vs Liverpool (Home) 2004 - Henry Hatrick brings us back from 2-1 down after 2 defeats in a row.

Vs Liverpool (away) 2002 - Gio sent off, Henry plays up front on his own - scores in 2-1 win

Vs Man Utd 2000 (home) - an even game is turned on Henry individual briiliance with a looping volley over Barthez

Vs Tottenham 2002 (home) - Spurs get back to 1-1, Henry lifts game and is awarded a penelty in the last minute to help Arsenal on way to Double

Vs Man Utd 2001 (home) - 1-0 down at Half time, Henry grabs striker's goals after Barthez slip ups to help win the game 3-1

Vs Aston Villa 2001 (home) - 2-0 down at half time, Henry producing 2 goals to turn the game 3-2 in Arsenal's favour

Vs Inter Milan (away) - with the game level at 1-1 Henry turns up the gears, setting up Ljungberg for 2-1 and then grabbing 2 goals himself in the San Siro

Vs Valencia - QTR Final Champions League (home) - Arsenal one nil down and conceeding an away goal looked doomed, Henry pulls them back into it at 1-1 with a sublime finish, Ray Parlour wins the game with a thunderbolt

Vs Roma (away) - Arsenal 1-0 down through good Cassano goal, Henry pulls Arsenal back single handedly with hattrick in Stadio Olympico.

I really could go on and on here but I think people get the message, that's the joys of being able to watch Henry week in week out from a comfortable seat in the North Bank!

Glad to hear you wouldn't want him in the team instead of Ruud because I feel the same the other way. In the time Ruud has been at Utd, Henry has helkped Arsenal win 2 Championships (one unbeaten one), 2 FA Cups (One as part of a Double), 2 PFA Awards (from fellow professionals), 2 Golden Boots, 0 European Cups, compared to

Ruuds 1 Championship, 1 FA Cup, 1 PFA Award, 1 Golden Boot, 0 European Cups

So where are all these great Ruud performances that pulled Utd through.....where they in Europe - I doubt it as 0 European Cups suggest he hasn't done it in the Knock-outs - yes goals, goals and more goals but no better off in Europe - the stats speak for themselves. I didn't want to go down this alley because I have a great deal of repesct for Ruud as a player but the fact remains that he is no better off than Henry or more likely to 'pull utd' to glory in Europe, he hasn't done it yet, has he?
08/12/2004, 8:50 AM
Karlos

some of you guys might be interested in this - seems the BBC had a debate on the Henry Vs Ruud thing awhile back. Alot of the arguments aren't based on stats and truths (alot like foot.ie! :D ) so it should sit very well with some, nudge nudge wink wink ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/low/spo...lk/2611035.stm

regards

Karl
08/12/2004, 9:03 AM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor74

It took Ferguson 13 years to win the big one, and he is supposed to be a great. If Wenger hasn't done it within the next 6 years, then his claim to being a great can be challenged on the CL question.

One thing I would raise is that United had to put with the foriegner rule for their first few years, so Fergusons best team (i.e. the 93 and 94 teams) never got the chance to play with their first 11.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

Valencia was in the Quarter Finals.

So once in the knock out stages he performed then Karlos.

btw Thanks for the link to a two year old thread :rolleyes:

Actually come to think of it, who actually one the league the season of the great BBC debate?
08/12/2004, 10:22 AM
Karlos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macy

One thing I would raise is that United had to put with the foriegner rule for their first few years, so Fergusons best team (i.e. the 93 and 94 teams) never got the chance to play with their first 11.

So once in the knock out stages he performed then Karlos.

btw Thanks for the link to a two year old thread :rolleyes:

Actually come to think of it, who actually one the league the season of the great BBC debate?

No problem for the link, I did say in my piece it was from a while back but you probably chose to ignore the hard facts as always! United won the league that year, but Henry was recognised as by his fellow professionals including the championship winning Man Utd team as the best player in the league in that season. good enough for me.

I also didn't realise that performance only relates to goals - in that case Ruud is the best in the world well after Raul & others but yet he still hasn't got half as many international, national or personal honours as Mr. Henry! I think if you ask Ruud he'd swap all his euro goals for one euro medal - not to mention a world cup, euro championship or a double winners medal.

p.s. Henry also scored three last year in the last 16 Vs Celta Vigo - just so you know my stats aren't slipping.

now maybe you can return the favour with the stats on how Ruud's euro goals and assists has led United to Euro & Domestic Glory over the last few years he has been at United?

Take the blinkers off lads - Ruud is a fantastic player and so is Henry, this 'not fit to tie his shoelaces' type of attitude stinks of jealousy. I forever get abuse from Man Utd fans saying Arsenal are nobody's till they win the Euro Cup, and if I was to live by that far out principal I could argue that a player is a nobody until he wins a World Cup & Euro Championships which would then rule out Ruud, Keane, Cantona, Bruce, Pallister, Ince, the fake Ronaldo, etc which we all know would a complete farce as they are all world class players of their time even without the top honours in WORLD football.

Man Utd fans used to slag off Liverpool for bragging about past glory's and now it has come full circle - what have United done in Europe since 1999, I'll tell you - jaques schitt! just as bad as Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle have done - they haven't been able to do it when it matters, Real Madrid (twice), an average Porto team etc etc.......WHere was Ruud and Keane to pull them to glory as has been previously stated??

You need to relise exactly where you are as a club and in the last 3 years that's 1 championship, 1 fa cup and 0 euro cups - you've even finished outside the top 2 on two occaisions - that's the reality no matter what your preconceptions of being the biggest club in the world are.
08/12/2004, 10:29 AM
Macy

I made no claims for Ruud for being a better player or not than Onrey. But I would prefer him to sulky. I simply stated my opinion on Onrey, saying that imo he doesn't perform for the arse in the big games - which I consider to be the knock out stages of the Champions League, and as your stats prove he's performed in one of them.

It's you that keep using Ruud/United as the only comparison, yet it's me that's accused of jealousy?
08/12/2004, 10:34 AM
wws

macy give over

man united are yesterdays news - a club in sharp decline - in the next 2/3 seasons i expect fullscale liverpoolness to set in and city to bypass their red neighbours

Henry is a good striker - arsenal will do well in europe this year - maybe even win it

in general tho the premiership quality is sub spl/eircom league stuff

no team outside the top three know how to defend or retain possession in a consistent, intentional and organised manner. FACT
08/12/2004, 10:41 AM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by wws

macy give over

man united are yesterdays news - a club in sharp decline - in the next 2/3 seasons i expect fullscale liverpoolness to set in and city to bypass their red neighbours

Henry is a good striker - arsenal will do well in europe this year - maybe even win it

in general tho the premiership quality is sub spl/eircom league stuff

no team outside the top three know how to defend or retain possession in a consistent, intentional and organised manner. FACT

:D and that is FACT.
08/12/2004, 11:01 AM
wws

far be it from me to engage in a bit of pointless whataboutery - I leave that to the garda killers thread....but case in point - Kenny Cunningham - Birmingham City v Arsenal - i saw this on RTE's excellent "The Premiership" in highlight form

Now ive the utmost respect for the office of Irish Captain but Kenny wot in the name off fcuk are you doing two yards in front of ON-ray as a cross is about to be shipped in???

in the continent they know one simple thing - space dont score goals - dont mark space mark the man -it doesnt matter a fck where the ball is - once youre in ON-rays way he doesnt score a tap in header from two yards. gotttit? simple. astro park stuff really. I see examples of this so often on RTE's THE Premiership that it does my nut.

now class dismissed, for lessons tomorrow read the collected works of liam brady in the sunday tribune
08/12/2004, 11:01 AM
Karlos

Quote:

Originally Posted by wws

no team outside the top three know how to defend or retain possession in a consistent, intentional and organised manner. FACT

very good point of the defensive capabilities of teams in the premiership, I'd even go as far as to say this season I have only seen one team who have looked very good defensively on a regular basis and that being Chelski. It's hard to believe looking at how Arsenal have been defending recently that they had the best defensive and goalkeeper stats in the league last year.

Ahh, Macy, must be hard for you watching football when your only big games in the champions league knock out stages! It's an interesting concept though to judge players becuase in effect it also means that the following players are not world class having not performed well in the C.L. Knockout stages -

Shearer
Duff
Vieria
Bergkamp
Owen
Ronaldinho
Kaka
Cantona etc etc etc.........................

and in return Nicolas Anelka and Steve McManaman are better than all of the above beause both scored and performed in European Cup Semi Finals and Finals.

so there you have it folks Manchester City have possibly more World Class Players than certainly Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool but probably not United because Keane, Giggs and Soslkjaer all played well in one competition almost 6 years ago now that's if you follows the Macy procedure for World Class Players! Your havin a laff mate :D

What next, they'll be singing 'You'll never walk alone' at Old Trafford!!!
08/12/2004, 11:57 AM
Pat O' Banton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy.McClure

I cant exactly remember him setting the world alight in Euro 2000 either and Im not even going to bother bringing up Euro 2004.

Didn't he get the Man of the Match awad in the final?
08/12/2004, 12:09 PM
Troy.McClure

Thought that was Trezaguet?

Eitherway, I stand by my point about the tournament as a whole, not just the final.

PS He cant head the ball either, I think his goal against Bermingham was his 2nd headed premiership goal.
08/12/2004, 12:29 PM
Coltron

Here is an opinionated article from soccernet regarding the whole 'Onray big-game player?' issue:

try it again

My opinion on the matter for what its worth is that the criticism leveled at players not perfroming in big games is that they go hiding and the occasion gets the better of them, this argument is not justified in Onray's case and what he does is the opposite. I sided with the big game flop theroists for a long while but have changed my view. Arsenals style of play is catered to his talents, i.e. give him the ball in good positions and he can do the rest - beat a man or two and finish it. But what he does in big games all too often is take on two much responsibility. This may seem a strange answer, buts its what Santini cited as the problem. He is against better players and he tries to do more against them, therein lies the problem. So it would seem that he should delegate more and farm out responsibility to others like Pires but when or if they actucally go hiding them he is fighting an uphill battle.

I'm not paying that much attention myself to the blip in the CL this year, they have qualifed and when the time for prizes is being handed out this year I think they will be there or there abouts. Atleast the semi finals this year if not all the way, for me anyway.
08/12/2004, 12:36 PM
Risteard

Nothing there Coltron. Try again.
08/12/2004, 12:41 PM
fergalr

There you go .... I start a thread about how Wenger never gets the blame and it turns into a debate about Theirry Henry!

Point proven?
09/12/2004, 9:55 AM
Coltron

She b up and runin now. :)
10/12/2004, 11:07 AM
Pat O' Banton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy.McClure

Thought that was Trezaguet?

Eitherway, I stand by my point about the tournament as a whole, not just the final.

PS He cant head the ball either, I think his goal against Bermingham was his 2nd headed premiership goal.

Don't think so, Trezaguet only came on as sub, Henry scored a beauty against Denmark in France's firse game at a time when the Danes were really putting France under pressure, he also scored the equalizer in the semi's against Portugal (don't forget he wouldn't have played against Holland in the grouup stages again.)