i have to say i thought we'd moved on from this kind of thing.
anyone who heard last nights abuse of the coloured players on the english team could'nt help but be moved by it.
it spoiled the match.fcucking disgraceful :mad:
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i have to say i thought we'd moved on from this kind of thing.
anyone who heard last nights abuse of the coloured players on the english team could'nt help but be moved by it.
it spoiled the match.fcucking disgraceful :mad:
Disgraceful and I thought the Spanish were better than that,shame on them
The spanish have always been a bit like that, In the 98 world cup when they played Nigeria and the nigerians won 4 -1 (well i think it was nigeria, defo an african team) the crowd were shouting those taunts as well, so they.ve done it before, its a disgrace and the something has to be done
Funny you mention Nigeria,when they were playing Ivory Coast recently the Nigerian fans were making pig grunts everytime the white Ivory Coast players touched the ball,strange world we live in. :(
When I first switched on it was 1-0....then all this kicked off and I would have gladly given my weeks wages for Sean Wright-Phillips to score :mad:
It was a total disgrace....in fairness to England their racism is USUALLY confined to domestic games there days and gone are the days where England fans were caged it at their international matches and black or asian people wern't welcome in the crowd......Spain need to clear their act up!
My dad had to stop going to see Crystal Palace during the seventies because he is Asian and it just got too dangerous....that's pretty much all gone now Thank God and apart from a few gangs of idiots English football has become more about the game both domestically and internationally....think England's international following cleared up their act about 98
Hopefully FIFA will come down really hard on the Spanish 'fans' who gave this sickening abuse at both last nights game and the U21 matches.....think the commentator summed it up well.......
"It's pathetic really......it's tiring, it's unecessary and it's really really out of order"
Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
I honestly don't see how the British Establishment is been hypocritical. Any right thinking person is duty bound to critisise this type of behaviour. Should the British ignore it because it was once common in English soccer? The FA may have ignored it at one time but at least they have made attempts to face up to it in the last twenty years. As far as I know it doesn't happen at English grounds anymore. Agree that a minority of English fans are hooligans of the worst type but again at least the FA have tried to clean up their act and seem to have been pretty succesful in the grounds themselves. I think it's pretty hard to control fans outside grounds and to stop them travelling abroad if they are determined enough.
I was hoping Wright Philips would score last night just to sicked the racist sh*tes.
I thought the behaviour of the Spanish fans was despicable. What they did was wrong regardless of who they were playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
The English have in the past shown the same mentality but that's in the past. They've done a huge amount to address the problems they have had and been on balance successful in eradicating it from their game.
Me too. Probably first and only time I would will an England player to score just to stick it to them. Absolutely disgusting. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by liam88
No matter what their fans past is the English FA have a right to be outraged. They have done a commendable job at kicking most of these morons out of the English game and other nations with similar problems (Spain, Slovakia, Holland notable examples in recent times) need to follow suit.
:confused: :confused: Sure it wasn't the Scum doing the monkey noises? Sort of their style - remember Terry Last, my old flight companion back after the 1990 Tans game and well known Chelsea w*nker, telling the meeja after the Tans 2-0 victory over Brazil that as far as he was concerned the game was 1-0 because John Barnes scored a goal. It's just funny how this sort of thing is never heard on Sky's Spanish Liga coverage, despite every team in Spain having its fair share of Blacks. Be looking at the Real-Barca game this weekend with added interest to see if this is a new fashion.
Agree with you Davros: The hypocracy stinks both in the Tan press and here too. There's racism in Ireland, Britain and Europe all the time but because someone reads it in The Scum or one of the other propaganda rags that the Irish devour every day, it finally merits a thread on here. :rolleyes:
It has always existed therefore it doesn't merit discussion? :confused: Ah sure let them make monkey noises, they are probably English anyway!!! Such rubbish. A large element of Spanish fans made monkey noises last night and at the under 21 game. It needs to be called to account.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I don't doubt that there are racists in England, Ireland and elsewhere in Europe who call themselves football fans. Racism exists everywhere. What I found particularly worrying at the game last night is it sounded like more than just a few ignorant people and it continued throughout the game. In fact it got worse as the game went on. While I am sure it was a minority of the Spanish fans the stewards and police obviously didn't do much to stop it (or maybe it wasn't possible due to the numbers involved).
Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
I don't read British gutter press and what they say is of no consequence to me. Perhaps I'm being naïve but it's a very long time since I have attended a game in England were I've heard anything like that. In fact I'm lucky enough to be too young to have ever sat through a match in the bad old days. Of course yobs and racists exist in England but there is a concerted effort to keep them out of football. Every country should be made accountable for their fans as that is the only way to make them effect change. Just because England fans have sinned doesn't mean people like SWP should have to suffer that. Leave the situation alone and you are sending out a very bad message. The fact England have got off in the past is no excuse to stick your head in the ground.
Also I am yet to hear of any condemning comments from Aragones, Raul or anybody from the Spanish camp which is disappointing.
Just on a side note, this is kind of also considered un-PC, from friends of mine who are black, they prefered to be called black instead of colouredQuote:
Originally Posted by the 12 th man
While what happened last night was despicable and disgusting it needs some context. Read Sid Lowe's piece in yesterday's Guardian for the reasons why the Spanish haven't condemned Aragones' comments.
Also the Spanish were highly insulted at the British media's reaction to Aragones comments and a lot of last night's stupidity was down to a desire to wind up the English and expose their hypocrisy.
As Aragones said - we all remember where racism comes from and we all remember the colonies. John Motson hand wringing was cringeworthy in the light of him ignoring the English scum's behaviour in grounds around the world for the last 25 years.
Don't forget we're talking about a country and a media which is hounding Frank McLintock because he used the name of a film with a non PC title. :rolleyes:
And bring back Big Ron!!!
KOH
Apologies Davros. Just re-read your post. I blame your "unique" writing style. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
there's no in fairness about it at all. wherever it happens and whoever does it, its disgusting and wrong. The problem in Spain is that you have right wing ultras groups like the Ultras Sur, Boixos Nois and the Frente Atletico (and many more) who are actively helped by the clubs- e.g. the Ultras Sur at Real: some of their leaders would be on very friendly terms with the establishment at Real, and their section of the ground was rebuilt by the club to suit them, so they could make more noise. I remember when Freddy Rincon signed for Real in the mid 90's, he was only the 4th black player in the club's history and he was driven out by these scum- there were things like "blacks out" and swastikas daubed on the wall of the Bernabéu the day he signed. Real have improved, but driving these filth out of the ground completely is the only solution. Its massive problem in Spanish football, and there's no quick fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by liam88
I take it that's aimed at me among others?Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
No one denies the existence of scummy, right wing, racist Ultra groups in Spain (esp Ultras Sur) all I'm saying is that I doubt that the racist crap last night would have been so pronounced if it hadn't been for the English hysteria beforehand. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
KOH
Eriksson should've had the balls to take his team off the park,afteral it was only a friendly,some sort of statement like that has to be made,it's no use fining the FA's,these morons don't give a toss,they'll just do it again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
Big Ron is alive and kicking (and giving the best punditry of his life! on George Hooks show on newstalk)
he does a laid back three blokes shooting the breeze and havin a laugh about football with giles and hook - its actually really good - 'lets just stop all the racist whosaiddit stuff and get down to the interesting stuff "like why i fell out with frank stapleton and other stories'
priceless banter about his time as unitred boss
I know it was disgraceful and shouldn't have been done but how many times did the commentator on BBC mention it. Motson i think!!! Just made people think of it more than rather concentrating on :mad: watching the match. If it was me being taunted i would have walked off the pitch. Spanish are a disgrace........ Should be fined heavily!!! Maybe a points deduction
It was disgraceful.I hope when the English FA report this to Fifa and Uefa that Spain are severly punished because this is not acceptable in Football, they're living in the past.I also think,out of protest both Spain and England's players should of walked off the pitch and abandon the game.
It should be left up to the Spanish FA to identify and punish those who they think is responsible (about half the spanish crowd so), but I agree with the comments on the Brit media. You'd swear Emile Heskey has never had bananas waved at him or heard those monkey noises in the Premiership. Or that whenever England go abroad they kick eight shades out of anyone they deem fair game, i.e. the non-english.
Suppose you're right on that one.They have a lot of football hooligans themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
If there were racist chants then that is deplorable and lamentable and it is not suitable behaviour for football fans," a spokesman for the foreign ministry said on Thursday.
"I am certain that it was only a small element of the crowd and Spain strongly rejects such behaviour."
The game at Real Madrid's Bernabeu stadium was marred by continual monkey noises directed at visiting black players and by a regular chorus of "If you are not f**king black jump up and down" sung by large sections of the 55,000 crowd.
http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/...to658695.shtml
Sorry you didn't get my attempt at sarcasm there. :rolleyes: You admit you are too young to remember the bad old days. You're willingness to forget all about the day the Scum smashed up the West Stand because of some monkey chants suggests you are more wet behind the ears than even I thought. Well, sadly, I'm not. I don't need lectures on racism at football. My first sight of English fans in the flesh was a bunch of Cambridge Utd 'supporters' shouting abuse and threats and throwing food at an Asian woman pushing her pram in Luton. Frankly IMO that deserves more contempt than a bunch of overpaid sportsmen getting compared with apes. Motson's dirge was incidentally embarrassing as he was quite quick to dismiss the racial abuse of Ruud Gullit during a game with the Scum I watched one night in the late eighties, as 'barracking.' If he called it 'sickening racism' then, as he was quick to call it now, I'd have a some respect. But as Davros rightly points out, racism is only highlighted when it suits the Tans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowsy
Am I against the discussion of racism? What do you think? I'm just wondering why now. Because it's the Tans that it's happened to? All of a sudden it's time to shove a cut onion in our handkerchiefs. People on here should be a little more concerned about the anti-Irish racism of England fans. I was at work at Wembley one international day and these c*nts came up the stairs not only singing that 'No Surrender' sh*te but screaming stuff like 'kill all those Irish b*stards'. Oh but, but, but, they're not all racists. But all of a sudden Spain's the new third Reich.
Personally I'm all for PC and anti-racism, if only for the fact that it p*sses people off like The Scum readers currently venting their spleens about racism this morning but giving out about illegal immigrants, black muggers and Islamic terrorists the rest of the week. But - and you might find this truly offensive but I don't care - for personal reasons previously divulged, when it comes to the Scum, I couldn't give a sh*t what happens to them, even if the black players were presented with a bunch of bananas each before the game. And before you - and Mr. 'I'm no racist Connor74' - choke on your cappuccino, this has nothing to do with them being black and everything - and I mean EVERYTHING - to do with them playing for the scum.
I am! The Scum have got away with smashing up much of Europe's bars and our stadium for 25 years. Why should anything happen to Spain because of racist abuse in ONE game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Davros
I'd say you've hit the G spot. I've yet to hear this sort of racism during La Liga matches on Sky or the few games I've gone to in Spain. The nearest thing was Deportivo's Manuel Pablo being called a monkey at Athletic Bilbao. But that's all right for all the faux liberals and anglophiles on here as Manuel Pablo is technically a honkey. Nor has this happened at other Spain games. I watched the game with Peru in the Spring on TVE and there was no abuse of their black players. And Spain's game with Israel in 2001 passed off without incident despite being played in 'fascist' Bernabeu. Why all of a sudden did it start last night? Had this anything to do with the fact that the monkey chant originated in the birthplace of football and that this was some sick attempt at honouring In-ger-land's contribution to the people's game - a bit like the Germans singing 'Football's Coming Home!'?Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
The groups mentioned are all right-wing. One book on the 'White Power'/Skinhead scene in Spain - Diario de Un Skin by Antonio Salas - shows Raul and Figo both posing with flags and scarves with neo-nazi insignia of the Ultras Sur for the fascists fanzine, while Salgado is pictured on the cover of one edition while a neo-nazi symbol dominates the rest of the page. Many clubs have an almost exclusivity of one or the other in terms of their Ultras although others have both. A club like Athletic Bilbao which has a profoundly left-wing fan base does not sign black players (the 'Basque only' rule which also includes players born in Castillian Rioja) and I was talking to one fan on my visit there who was quite proud, that unlike Deportivo, there were no 'mulatos' in his team. However I wouldn't say racism is the problem in Spanish football that it was in Britain in the eighties. Real have signed numerous black players since Rincon and there are enough left wing clubs with black players that would kick up a fuss if this sort of thing was happening every week. The problem is that the Black minority in Spain is currently very small. That is why Aragones racist remarks made headlines and were condemned by newspapers such as MARCA, but no one called for his resignation. As for Spanish society, The Voice - a newspaper who's hardly backward in going forward on matters of racism - voted Spain the best country in Europe for a Black man or woman to live in a few years back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
How do you think I feel? I'm agreeing with someone who calls me a "Sh*ms man"...oh, and Lopez. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Seriously though, this holier than thou crap from the English is hard to take. What does anyone think of the reaction to Frank McLintock? More over the top PC rubbish as far as I'm concerned. I detest racism but the PC brigade get on my tits almost as much. :mad:
KOH
No sane man could disagree with that. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
Iraq, Palestine, Northern Ireland, Kashmir, Zimbabwe etc etc. All conflicts which have their roots in perfidious Albion. The Brits are to blame for everything, ever. So there.
KOH
I think we have a case of so called 'tan-itis' on here - a look closer to home might help.
1) If I'd one euro for eveytime I heard abuse thrown at someone who had the misfortune to play even a second for Rangers, I'd be a millionaire.
2) Two is the number of complaints I have had to make to the FAI about abuse of one of our players by our own fans (Bling Bling Clinton!) in a friendly Vs Denmark
3) Three is the number of times one gentleman abused Kanu during the friendly Vs Nigeria in 2002 before we had him evicted
4) Four is the number of minutes it took me to enter and then leave after comments were made by Irish fans in a pub in Ballsbridge about my asian friend before the brazil game in 2004
5) five is the number of people we reported to the FAI for racially abusing Patrick Kluivert and J.F. Hasselbaink at Lansdowne Road in 2001
thank god us Irish aren't an racist bunch! If I'd a euro for everytime someone in a pub started a sentence with 'Those refugees......' I'd also be even wealthier!!!
Racism is a worldwide problem not exclusive to english, spanish or others and unfortunetly exists in Ireland as strong as anywhere else
Yes i thought you were seriously suggesting the English made monkey noises at SWP. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Yes i am wet behind the ears but refuse to take to the idea that no action needs to be taken because the "scum" were the recipients.
No, i never experienced the bad old days and nor do i want to. The fact that England have gotten away with it in the past is no reason to forgive this behaviour in the present. And i'm not for a minute suggesting this is some endemic problem in Spain and England are a troop of little angels. it's racism therefore it should be addressed. That's the only rationale i'm using.
The reason i'm posting here is not because of the admittedly hypocritical English outrage but because that was the first game i have seen in long time where the level of racist abuse was quite so audible.
I wholeheartedly agree. Leaving aside all other factors (basically the Scum) it was the worst I've heard in years. But I'm afraid I can't stand the bunch, and I make no apology for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowsy
I took a look at the TVE news this afternoon and they are far from indifferent to the racism that occurred. However the level of what they call violence from the Tan players was also disgusting. I think Liam asked why things got worse as it went on. I think the answer lay in the montage of fouls played by TVE today that were dished out by a team who were skilfully out of their depth (even Ireland in the first Swiss game had more than 43% of the possession chasing the game as they were) and could only cope by acting like the people you usually associate with following them. Some people may remember some of the dirty Spanish sides of the seventies and eighties (in particular Barcelona against Spurs in the 1982 cup Winners Cup) and the uproar they caused. Well they had at least one player willing or able to play football.
Karlos. It's Tan-itis alright, but you're right about the so-called Greatest Fans in The World. I noticed some not so loud racism directed at Clinton around me at the Bulgaria game, and I've heard about people f*cked out for racism. Clinton has had hacks at him before more than other people and that sh*t he got off Frei (??). But it was given scant coverage. Similarly, where's the thread about Reyes being told to tell Thierry Henry that he sh*ts on his whore mother. Nothing! This is why I believe the thread is fuelled more by Tan propaganda in Ireland (by the BBC, the Tan press masquerading as 'Irish', and their compadres in rags like the Daily Blueshirt) than any real concern for racism.
Connor. I heard you were some form of advocate so I take it you've got some intelligence. So why bring up a story of being mugged by an Irishman in response to racist attacks?
Also, when people say they are against the US government, McMurders, Kentucky Fried Rat or other parts of corporate America it doesn't mean that they hate all Americans. Similarly, the support for Palestinians (and carrying the nation's flag which I've noticed you equate with a swastika) doesn't mean your anti-Semitic. Also you really do need to dissect people's prejudices a bit more. Being anti -Scum doesn't mean that me and the little Buddha hate everything British no more than being a member of a party once frequented by Jackie Healy Rae makes you a racist. In relation to racism, Davros mentioned the Germans, but the third Reich lasted, what?, 12 years. English/Racism has breached nearly 400 years. I think you can see the difference.
Just think of my view of the Scum as a grievance against a certain British fast food Chain that poisoned me one night with salmonella and not the British people themselves (many of which don't give a f*ck about the Scum, Eastenders, Coro, or other aspects of the country's popular culture). I mean, the Scum themselves are getting more like that everyday with the patenting of three mangy hyenas as their corporate logo.
Yeah, thats true. there has been progress, but that has been because these black players have been successful and the filth who abused rincon, have accepted them because of their success. I recall about 2 years ago, buying Marca to find a 4 page report of the waving of swastikas at the bernabeu by members of the ultras sur, at a number of games in the previous 2 weeks. they weren't punished AT ALL by the club, not even kicked out.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I know what these groups are like, I've studied them in quite a bit of detail, and while there are some left-wing ultras groups in spain, the majority are right-wing and very racist. That happens everywhere- the problem is that its accepted by officialdom, and there's no real effort to do anything about it. BTW, how many black players have represented spain internationally? Engonga is the only one i can think of.
I have to say that i think that we irish are an extremely racist society. The things i hear on a daily basis about people of other colour, races and religions is frightening.
We dont boo at football matchs. It just means we dont show our racisim at footbal matchs. Found this interesting
Sadly I don't even know if thats true.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
I remember standing on North Terrace at the Ireland v Nigeria game 2002 and the amount of causal rascism in peoples comments was shocking (repeated use of n****r just talking about the game - children standing there using same word parents not even passing remarks on it.) It can be asked did people know that this was offensive, cultural differences, lack of knowlegde etc. but this would be a profoundly insulting argument to those, like I hope everyone on this board who condems rascism.
Last night was pretty disgusting, we all know that England themselves have history of trouble (I'm sure we all heard those morons singing "My Grandad killed your Grandad" watching the match in Munich in 2001, etc). But thats a seperate issue - irrespective of who they were playing, for a section of the Spanish fans to make monkey noises at black players is just utterly wrong... it was so blatant too, I really couldn’t believe what I was hearing.
The Real Madrid ultras do have a bad reputation for that sort of thing. I remember reading that there were a few of them who regularly wore SS and Nazi regalia (flags, t-shirts and the like) to games... I don’t think other Spanish clubs are as bad (eg I think Barca and Atletico have more "moderate" ultras (for want of a better phrase) and both have had black players playing for them regularly (eg Davids, Kluivert, Ronaldinho, Hasselbaink, Perera).
Most Spanish people I know would have been disgusted at what happened last night, and that’s why I found it so surprising. Some of those fools in the Bernabeau have really sullied the image of Spanish football.
Not from me you won't!Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
:D :D :D :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
I'm still wondering why you mention some deadbeats with the same nationality as yourself pinching your money with the bog standard snide and unfunny comments that we've come to expect, when someone is speaking about racial assaults? :confused:
Have to say, this has been quite an interesting debate! I think the on thing that we are all in agreement on however is that racism has no place in football and more importantly to us has no place in Lansdowne Road or where- ever the irish team play.
I haven't always got a great deal of time for the FAI but I must say that in my experiences and through the experiences of my collegues I have found them generally proactive as an organisation in the fight against racism and have seen them take action against the people committing this most vile action.
I think as Fans it is important that we do not allow this sort of thing to happen. Especially since the advent of all-seater at Lansdowne, it's incredibally easy to pin-point a racist even after the event. Unfortunetly friendlies are harder due to the terraces and the untrained stewarts unwilling to get involved in such matters.
I think the one thing that annoys me about some Irish fans at times however is the hatred towards the England Football Team. I understand why some people feel the way they do about the country, it's previous regimes etc and I'm not going to preach to anyone about it on here, it's just something that sits uneasy with me. I have many English friends, I enjoy watching English football (or should that be french, c'mon Arsenal), i enjoy visting England, i've never been treated with anything other by respect by english people - I even am a member of the FA's Coaches Association and whatever I may feel towards herself in the palace has no bearing on the players I spend the majority of my waking hours watching! I have no shame in supporting an English Team with English Players (although good oul Chippy Brady is still the man!!!) and I'd consider myself a bit of a hipocrite to cheer Sol Campbell & Ashley Cole one week and have to hate them the next week! Although I would make an exception should we ever have the misfortune to sign GARY NEVILLE!!!!
Sorry Lads, rant over
what bout an FAI offical calling a black player a "monkey".....it happened, eric lavine was called a monkey by a linesman, he got sent off for decent when he went mad after it happened, some one should remember the game in question and the linesman, digusting.
Though not including actually living there for the past 20 years :) ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
Serious abuse merits a serious punishment. At least one game in a closed stadium would be appropriate, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez
The difference being that I don't constantly abuse their country by reference to a war 80 years ago :)
Appreciate this side of the argument and the Spanish would be very unfortunate to receive an unprecedented punishment for a first offence but something needs to be down Europe wide. IMO A slap on the wrists for the Spanish FA (not points deducted or anything like that) and some strict guidelines set out stating that such behaviour in future by any nation will result in deducting points/games behind closed doors etc would be appropriate. Is there an enforceable code of conduct for fans?Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
I know i'm dreaming but UEFA and FIFA need to take a more proactive approach to this by hitting FAs where it hurts.