Nice people those Israelis...

Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian schoolgirl in Gaza Strip



11:25 Thursday October 28th 2004



Israeli soldiers have shot and killed an eight-year-old Palestinian girl while she was on her way to school in the Gaza Strip this morning.
Witnesses said the youngster was walking through the Khan Younis refugee camp when she was hit by random machine-gun fire from an Israeli army outpost at the nearby illegal Jewish settlement of Ganei Tal.

She was the latest in a string of Palestinian schoolgirls to be killed by Israeli soldiers over the past four years.

Meanwhile, around 40 Israeli tanks and armoured vehicles invaded the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank last night, sparking a gunbattle with local militants. There were no reports of any deaths or injuries.

Israel said the raid was part of a crackdown on Palestinian militants and was likely to last a number of days.

context, context, context

Palestinians launch rockets into Israeli Settlements destroying a créche killing 17 children.

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Originally Posted by ccfcman

Palestinians launch rockets into Israeli Settlements destroying a créche killing 17 children.

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Whats your point?
That an innocent school girl should be murdered, because 17 other innocent school children were murdered?....:confused:

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Originally Posted by patsh

Whats your point?
That an innocent school girl should be murdered, because 17 other innocent school children were murdered?....:confused:

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no, but theres 2 sides to every story.

if was in the news that some guy viciously stabbed a man resulting in his death, it'd be unfair not to mention that the said man was holding a gun to his head after shooting his wife.

Aye, the Israelis seem to act very passionatley whenever something happens. Not passing judgemnt or anything but I notice that when the Palestinians maasacre some children the Israelis normally respond by doing the same. Neither side is in the right.
Having said that using 'Israelis' or 'Palestinians' for that matter is 'tarring with the same brush' to keep in with the foot.ie phrase of the month ;)
All seriousness though-when another little Palestinian girl got shot about a week back by an Israeli sergant his whole platoon/battalion or whatever, were disgusted and took action to get him kicked out and court marsheleld. He didn't get court marshelled but was removed from command for something along the lines of "loosing the confidence of his battalion".
It's all a very sad story.
Last night though when Yassar Arrafat took a turn for the worse the Israelis did say he could go to hospital wherever he wanted including abroad. Any hidden agenda or the argument that they shouldn't have had him under 'house arrest' in the first place though comes up from this......

Not black and white at all

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Originally Posted by liam88

Last night though when Yassar Arrafat took a turn for the worse the Israelis did say he could go to hospital wherever he wanted including abroad. Any hidden agenda or the argument that they shouldn't have had him under 'house arrest' in the first place though comes up from this......

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Or the fact they said they wouldn't guarantee he could go back....

tbh I'm sick of the so called "only democracy in the middle east". They act worse than many of the dictatorships. And yet another example of failed US Foreign Policy...

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Originally Posted by ShedEnd.com

context, context, context

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You want context - here's some fcuking context for you:

Since the outbreak of the present intifada in September 2000, the Israeli army and paramilitary Jewish settlers have killed more than 3400 Palestinians, a majority of them innocent civilians, including some 640 children and minors. Thousands of others have been injured, many of them disabled for life. During the same period, as many 950 Israeli soldiers, settlers and civilians have been killed by armed Palestinian fighters, including human bombers.

The Israelis are scum, pure and simple. Personally I'd chase the lot of them into the fcuking sea. But I may be a little OTT on my feelings on this matter. ;)

KOH

the israelis are as bad as the palestinians

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Originally Posted by ShedEnd.com

no, but theres 2 sides to every story.

if was in the news that some guy viciously stabbed a man resulting in his death, it'd be unfair not to mention that the said man was holding a gun to his head after shooting his wife.

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There are at least two sides to every story.
However, what has the school girl who was murdered got to do with the 17 children murdered?
Has it been alleged/proved/shown that
She fired that rocket?
She ordered the firing of it?
She made the rocket?
In what way is the murder of those 17 children the "other side ofthe story" of the murder of the girl?
There IS NO CONTEXT for this murder.

It's the innocent who normally get killed on all sides. If you want to mention
one sides "story", along with the other side's "story", to somehow achieve some sort of "balance", fair enough. To somehow suggest a link between the the schoolgirl and the 17 murders is disgraceful.

theres no link (well, we wont go into it) but saying the israelis are scum without mentioning the fact that they've a match in the palestinians is called propaganda and arrafat would be proud.

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Originally Posted by ShedEnd.com

theres no link (well, we wont go into it) .

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There is no link; full stop. Unless you have evidence of a link, what is there "to go into"?

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Originally Posted by ShedEnd.com

but saying the israelis are scum without mentioning the fact that they've a match in the palestinians is called propaganda and arrafat would be proud.

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To make a sweeping generalisation about any nation is ridiculous.
To make the statement about any nation is an opinion, but hardly propoganda.
It's hardly likely that anyone who makes a statement about a nation they disagree with, would also mention something negative about a nation they agree with. After all, opinion is by it's very nature, partisan.

Gnerally in Ireland we've always swung towards the Palestinians due to the PLO/IRA Israel/U*A links but it seems people are becoming a bit more open minded nowdays....

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Originally Posted by ShedEnd.com

the israelis are as bad as the palestinians

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no no and no again. the israeli's are the illegal occupants of palestinian land who take advantage of their status as a supposed democracy and the backing of the US to murder and slaughter innocent civilians in the name of "national security." the israeli approach would be like the british government carpet bombing dublin in response to the canary wharf bombing or something. they are in contravention of numerous UN resolutions and quite simply the most murderous state on the planet since Nazi germany. how ironic that israel was founded for the jews after the horrors of the holocaust and now the state they have created is as bad as the one they were running away from. israel= filth.

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Originally Posted by liam88

Gnerally in Ireland we've always swung towards the Palestinians due to the PLO/IRA Israel/U*A links but it seems people are becoming a bit more open minded nowdays....

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we've swung towards the palestinians because we know what its like to be brutally occupied by a murderous foreign government, thats why.

Its worse than ever... both sides are being urged on by "nutter elements" (the Israeli right-wing, and the more militant groups on the Palestinian side), which means the situation is getting worse and worse... theres no chance of a "Camp David" style agreement now. Sadly its the innocent civilians who are targeted. The biggest irony of it all is the Othordox Jews, who tend to be the most right wing and pro-settlers etc, get out of doing their national service in dangerous areas on religous grounds.

I dont think the conflict there will ever end... there is too much hatred and mistrust, its generations old and neither side will back down. On the one had the Palestinian leaders and wider Arabic world (also Iran) are reluctant to even consider an Israeli State (even one within its UN borders). On the other hand Israeli right-wingers dont want to budge from their occupation outside the UN boundaries.

The more it goes on the more the moderates on either side get marginalised, the more calls their are for "revenge", and the more civilians get killed.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I dont think the conflict there will ever end... there is too much hatred and mistrust, its generations old and neither side will back down.

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I can see where your coming from here-although people would have said exactly the same about Northern Ireland 10/20 years ago and although we all know it would be naive to pretend that Northern Ireland is in harmoney, the situation has improved a lot in many areas.
Hopefully one day we will be able to say the same for the Middle East...

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Originally Posted by liam88

I can see where your coming from here-although people would have said exactly the same about Northern Ireland 10/20 years ago and although we all know it would be naive to pretend that Northern Ireland is in harmoney, the situation has improved a lot in many areas.
Hopefully one day we will be able to say the same for the Middle East...

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the thing in the 6 counties is that you had moderate people coming more to the fore and there was always a sizeable element on each side which wanted to move forward. in the case of the palestine conflict, you have terrorists claiming to be a government on the israeli side, and you have terrorists running amok on the other side becaue the palestinian authority can't control them, the extremists are getting more popular if anything and I can't see it changing any time soon. the only way to sole it is to force the israeli's to withdraw to the 1967 borders as demanded by the UN (at the very least) and for the UN to send peacekeepers- but that won't happen as long as you have a war criminal like sharon being backed by the murdering filth in washington dc.

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Originally Posted by liam88

Gnerally in Ireland we've always swung towards the Palestinians due to the PLO/IRA Israel/U*A links but it seems people are becoming a bit more open minded nowdays....

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Maybe in small minded plastic republican circles, who are quick to jump on any bandwagon they think is "cool".

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Originally Posted by Macy

Maybe in small minded plastic republican circles, who are quick to jump on any bandwagon they think is "cool".

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Your patronising arguement being that while you can work out the complexities of political situations, those with views that you do not agree with cannot :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Macy

Maybe in small minded plastic republican circles, who are quick to jump on any bandwagon they think is "cool".

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Never said I agreed with it-personally I think the 'one struggle' has fundemantal flaws.
Ok both countries have been occupied and in theory it's the same fight. But certain Republicans in the osc celebrated on 9/11 because of the Palestine link and the fact the Americans gave money to the Isralies who gave arms to the U*A. However through NORAID the Americans gave millions of dollars to the RA leaving the Americans fuelling both sides of the conflict and certain Republicans celebrating the deaths of the very people who had given THEM money :confused:

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Originally Posted by Pat O' Banton

Your patronising arguement being that while you can work out the complexities of political situations, those with views that you do not agree with cannot :rolleyes:

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Maybe I could've put it better; there are plenty of people around who support the Palestinians simple because of some mythical IRA link. There are plenty of these knobs around, they normally have Basque flags as well as Palestinian one's to show their support for various causes. I still don't think I'm getting my point across very well, hopefully some people at least get what I mean. Infact, it basically boils down to the people who support Sinn Fein just because it's cool to do so.

btw I do have sympathy with the Palestinians, I wouldn't say support as frankly I do fúck all to help them, and would never claim to know all the facts. I have, however, formed my opinion myself without needing some cause to lump it in with.

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Originally Posted by Macy

support the Palestinians simple because of some mythical IRA link. There are plenty of these knobs around, they normally have Basque flags as well as Palestinian one's to show their support for various causes.

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correct me if I'm wrong but I've been led to believe that the IRA and Palestinians have traded arms in the past leaving the link far from 'mythical'. Again though you have the fundemental flaw with the Basque flags as the people who wave these are often the same ones who supported the Spanish in giving arms to the Argentinians during the Falklands war
Times move on I guess-there was a time when Spanish flags and the stars and stripes would have tied in perectly in Republican circles-now it's Palestinian and Basque.
I have Republican views but I am still quite cautious of the Palestinian/Basque/Irish link though there was a time when there was a Palestinian flag flying above the Free Derry sign as opposed to the tri. In retaliation in the loya*ist estates they had the Star of David hanging off the lamp-posts :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Éanna

we've swung towards the palestinians because we know what its like to be brutally occupied by a murderous foreign government, thats why.

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Piffle paffle, this argument will have no end, both sides are in the wrong, and unfortunately they cannot come to a conclusion.

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Originally Posted by liam88

correct me if I'm wrong but I've been led to believe that the IRA and Palestinians have traded arms in the past leaving the link far from 'mythical'. Again though you have the fundemental flaw with the Basque flags as the people who wave these are often the same ones who supported the Spanish in giving arms to the Argentinians during the Falklands war
Times move on I guess-there was a time when Spanish flags and the stars and stripes would have tied in perectly in Republican circles-now it's Palestinian and Basque.
I have Republican views but I am still quite cautious of the Palestinian/Basque/Irish link though there was a time when there was a Palestinian flag flying above the Free Derry sign as opposed to the tri. In retaliation in the loya*ist estates they had the Star of David hanging off the lamp-posts :rolleyes:

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I think that the Palestinians offered the trade of arms but the IRA refused as they didn't believe that they would ever get as far as Ireland without Mossad knowing about them.

I remember hearing that on one estate in the Village area of Belfast had the Star of David hanging on a wall where someone had also painted KKK :rolleyes:

Okay Macy point taken with regards to some people supporting causes without fully looking into them. (BTW there's a big piece an Alty in this months 442 magazine)

Some more information on this murder:
From http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=586044

Israelis fired on girl 'having identified her as a 10-year-old', military tape shows
By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem


24 November 2004

Israeli soldiers continued firing at a Palestinian girl killed in Gaza last month well after she had been identified as a frightened child, a military communications tape has revealed.

The tape is likely to be crucial in the prosecution case against the men's company commander, who faces five charges arising from the killing of Iman al-Hams, 13, in the southern border town of Rafah on 6 October.

It shows that troops firing with light weapons and machine guns on a figure moving in a "no entry zone" close to an army outpost near the border with Egypt had swiftly discovered that she was a girl.

In the recorded exchanges someone in the operations room asks: "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?" The observation post, housed in a watchtower, replies: "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastwards, a girl of about 10. She's behind the embankment, scared to death."

Not until four minutes later was it reported that the girl had been hit and had fallen. The observation post reports: "Receive, I think that one of the positions took her out." ... Operations room: "What, she fell?" Observation post: "She's not moving right now."

The tape records the commander as telling his men, after firing at the girl with an automatic weapon and declaring he has "confirmed" the killing: "Anyone who's mobile, moving in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."

The tape, broadcast on Israel's Channel Two TV, gives the most graphic account of the killing after which soldiers in the company, part of the Givati Brigade, complained that they had been "besmirched" by the company commander's insistence on "confirming the kill".

The army admitted shortly after the shooting near the Girit outpost that it had been a mistake. The girl was carrying a bag which the army said that the soldiers had thought contained explosives, but which was found to contain schoolbooks. Although the family is at a loss to explain why she had wandered into a dangerous prohibited zone, they say she was on her way to school at the time.

The soldiers said that the commander had fired two shots at the girl from close range as she lay on the ground before withdrawing, turning and "emptying his magazine" by firing some 10 bullets at her body.

This account is broadly confirmed by the terms of the indictment issued this week. Although the family's Israeli lawyer believes - and Palestinian witnesses said last month - that she was wounded but alive when the commander fired his first two shots, he has not been charged with manslaughter, apparently on the grounds that there is no evidence that the two bullets killed the girl.

After the report that she has been hit, the tape records the company commander as saying: "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ..." After a pause he adds: "Receive a situation report - we fired and killed her. She was wearing pants, jeans, an undershirt, a shirt. Also, she was wearing a keffiyah on her head. I also confirmed the kill. Over."

The charges include obstruction of justice because of a false explanation - which was accepted by senior commanders until soldiers came forward with their version of events to the newspaper Yedhiot Ahronot - that he came under fire from Palestinian gunmen 300 yards away as he approached the girl and shot at the ground to deter the fire.

Because "confirmation of the killing" is not dealt with under military regulations the commander - who has been named only as Captain R - has been charged with "illegal use of a weapon" and overstepping his authority to the extent of jeopardising human life. He has been remanded in custody.

The al-Hams family's lawyer, Leah Tsemel, said that she was angered by what she said was the relative lightness of the charges. "I believe that the commanders and the soldiers who fired should all have been charged with murder."

The family have declined an army request to exhume the body for a post-mortem examination, because of the pain it would cause relatives.