Ways to create new clubs to league football

League football has to be the priority of the FAI in the progression of football in this country. There has to be a logical and supported progression for new clubs to senior league football.

The Premier Division format at present is fine as a 12 team league while the First Division has been struggling over the years. The promotion format between these two divisions is fine and works as a system.

I believe that to create an interest in this progression you have to create a footballing pyramid system. We should use the current Leinster, Munster and the new proposed Connaught Senior leagues as areas to encourage and mobilise interested clubs. Adding two teams from these leagues on a play-off system would generate this option.

We should scrap the FAI’s method of offering invitation to apply to so called ‘interested clubs’ each year.

Creating a format within these established structures would be a real and worthwhile aspiration for clubs to gain promotion to the First Division. A club could participate on an amateur basis initially after winning promotion and be given a years option whether to continue or stay where they are as the First Division is mainly an amateur league for most players in its present format. I know the Munster and Leinster Senior Leagues are mainly populated by city clubs but this could be modified over time as clubs in areas such as Tullamore, Mullingar, Navan, Tralee, Castlebar and the likes would have a better basis to establish its structures.

I know there would be a lot of technical issues and difficulties with this idea but it would be the best structure to use as a way of creating a better format for more clubs and interest.

Not sure "create" is the best word for your thread title, most people would read that as Munster Rugby style franchise creation of teams by the FAI. On balance, there's very little the FAI can do to encourage new teams if they consider it unaffordable to go senior, bar regionalising the second tier, perhaps the re-entry of non-league club to the u-19 league may eventually ensure their progress to the senior League in time.

For me there is three things the FAI should be doing if they want to expand the league across the country. First is try implement a system were teams that have gone bust (Monaghan, Kildare etc,) are kept alive at underage level and can re-enter the first one or two seasons later, with their problems that resulted in the team being unable to carry on looked at and some sort of solution offered so it doesn't happen again.

Two, make it more financially attractive for teams to enter, were they start on a profit rather than an automatic loss.

And finally certain junior clubs in areas they want to expand in are developed over a 2 to 5 year period to enter the league such as tying them with an existent club so expertise over off the field matters are passed.

We seem to be the only league in Europe who can't attract teams to play in our top divisions, and of course expanding means f**k all if traditional clubs go bust.

Unfortunately I don't see any existing junior or intermediate clubs joining the current league structure.

The only teams that I think will join will be B sides from existing league teams or FAI brokered Frankenstein clubs formulated from interested parties (ie clubs, individuals and district leagues) in geographical locations where no LOI team currently exists. Perhaps not as bad as it sounds at first. For example a Kerry team or a Mayo team could certainly add to the league. Can it work? Check out Galway FC in three or four years time.

Talk of pyramid structures are all great - except for one thing.. its the last thing the teams below the LOI want. So forget about it - it won't happen. No matter how many pages or threads proposing it are written.

Underage football is the starting point for any new teams. Kerry should have an U19 team this time next year. The league in some respects could be as it was prior to A championship, with a number of non-LoI teams competing at underage level.

I'm afraid that it has been tried before (Tralee and Killarney played in the MSL, but pulled out due to travelling costs). What we could do though is set up more intermediate leagues (say for the midwest, the midlands, the south-east etc.), and then gradually merge the top divisions until we reach the first division.

What about the Ulster Senior League? Shouldn't be involved?

It'd be all well and good to promote teams from the provincial leagues..but the fact is, the Munster Senior League is just Cork, the Leinster Senior League is largely Dublin and the Ulster Senior League is just Donegal.

There needs to be a radical overhaul of all the provincial leagues. They need to be all inclusive of the provinces and not just one county. 10 teams minimum across all the leagues with the winners of each going into a play-off system to take the place of the relegated First Division team.

For me though, realistically, that won't happen and the only solution is for the A Championship to be brought back. I'd almost go as far as suggesting the First Division needs to be replaced with the A championship. A Premier Division of 16 teams with everyone else playing in the A Championship as it was previously.

I think it should, but to put it at the same standard as the MSL and LSL would grossly overestimate the strength of football in North Donegal.

So it should be left out? That's a bit poor form in fairness. If I'm not mistaken, the Ulster Senior League recently won the inter-provincial championship?

I'm not saying leave it out, I think it would be more sensible to merge the CSL and USL into a single league. Either that or change it into a border league covering Sligo,leitrim, cavan and monaghan.

Border league is a better idea, but stretching it out into Connacht would be widely opposed by current USL clubs due to large amounts of travelling.

Maybe you're right about a Connacht/Ulster League. I think an idea could be to increase the number of intermediate leagues to get around the travelling issue, say for example

LSL (renamed Eastern Senior League): Dublin, Kildare, Meath, Wicklow, Louth
MSL (renamed Cork Senior League): Cork
Mid-West Senior League: Limerick, Clare, W. Tipperary, Kerry (i.e. 06 telephone area)
Western Senior League: Galway, Mayo
South-Eastern Senior League: SE Tipp, Waterford, Carlow, Kilkenny, Wexford
Border League: Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan
Midlands Senior League: Roscommon, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, NE Tipp

Suggestions welcome.

The A Championship will not make a return. Premier clubs got their way by doing away with it. In fairness at least it was given a go. Similar to a 10 team Premier which some of us thought was a good move but in fairness it's be a good move to switch back to 12.
Soccer outside the LoI has gone backwards in terms of progressing to senior level. It'll be down to a club or region to get their own house in order. Youth football is where the focus should be, getting back to a vibrant underage league as was in place a few years back.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

So it should be left out? That's a bit poor form in fairness. If I'm not mistaken, the Ulster Senior League recently won the inter-provincial championship?

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Harps struggle in the best of times. Having other clubs in that region/county, which is mainly rural with not much of a football culture will only cause problems for Harps. The best hope for Ulster would be to try and get Monaghan back. But they were just a club making up the numbers.

On creating new clubs.*I couldn't ever see a Mayo club lasting long in the LOI either. I'd say Kerry and Carlow would be the same if they every got a team in the LOI. If history has taught us anything it is that you can't just create a new club where there is no football supporters tradition and expect it to survive in the LOI without a hardcore loyal support. Look at Kildare, Fingal, Dublin City.*

Another thing that causes problems for clubs from small towns/rural areas wanting to join the league in attracting fans is the location of their grounds. Wexford are barley holding on. If their ground as in the town they would have a better chance of attracting teenagers and younger fans. I think that was one of the reasons Monaghan and Kilkenny failed too.*

I could see a mayo team lasting! was told by Ciaran Kelly when he played with Athlone that there does be huge crowds for Westport- castlebar games! There was one game I think he said well over a thousand people at it if not even bigger than that!

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Originally Posted by athloneman

I could see a mayo team lasting! was told by Ciaran Kelly when he played with Athlone that there does be huge crowds for Westport- castlebar games! There was one game I think he said well over a thousand people at it if not even bigger than that!

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Like Kerry, the Mayo League competed in the U21 league and the League Cup. A club then took it on in the A Championship. The first step upon some return would be for the Mayo League to enter the U19 league. As long as underage is looked after, a team at senior level could come in time if the interest, desire and structures are there.

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Originally Posted by athloneman

I could see a mayo team lasting! was told by Ciaran Kelly when he played with Athlone that there does be huge crowds for Westport- castlebar games! There was one game I think he said well over a thousand people at it if not even bigger than that!

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Yeah but to survive you either need consistent crowds of a few hundred or else some sort of non-footballing income stream to keep things afloat.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Like Kerry, the Mayo League competed in the U21 league and the League Cup. A club then took it on in the A Championship. The first step upon some return would be for the Mayo League to enter the U19 league. As long as underage is looked after, a team at senior level could come in time if the interest, desire and structures are there.

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One thing though I think if the championship was maintained for a decade or so and clubs were entered into the league and FAI cups you could possibly see clubs start to establish themselves in places like like Mayo and Kerry. Too many previous clubs tried to run before they could even crawl.


There is a massive rivalry between Westport and Castlebar but only way you'd get a crowd like that is if it was a final. Still impressive but I'm sure it's the same with some LSL clubs

If are serious about getting new clubs to join the FAI must remove the minium prices clubs must charge into games ie FAI rules states admission price must be at least €10.

Someone suggested replacing the first division with the a championship. This is a good idea. I would have a ten team premier (it would strengthen the a Championship and was suggested in the genesis report) add b teams for those who want one and encourage Kildare, Kilkenny, Monaghan, Carlow, Tralee back to the league by reducing the Registration fee. If there were a 8 Team north and 8 team south with playoffs for promotion. Lower travelling costs. Having two more "big clubs" (like Bray and Athlone) may help crowds too. With reduced fee's, lower travelling costs. it may be possible for clubs not to make a loss. The A Championship may even become appealing for big Junior/Intermediate clubs if they see teams not loosing hand over fist.

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Originally Posted by Trainee

If are serious about getting new clubs to join the FAI must remove the minium prices clubs must charge into games ie FAI rules states admission price must be at least €10.

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I guess €5 for a Adult would help crowds but it devalues the product. Still i would rather see a full ground at €5 than a 1/4 full ground at €15

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Originally Posted by Trainee

If are serious about getting new clubs to join the FAI must remove the minium prices clubs must charge into games ie FAI rules states admission price must be at least €10.

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Can clubs survive on smaller ticket prices? I was at a club in Europe recently - a club who have recently been in the Europa League and have current internationals with World Cup experience - and they were charging €5 for tickets and they still barely got 500 people. The club wouldn't be viable were they not cross-subsidised by their other sporting clubs and investors.

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Originally Posted by citybone

Someone suggested replacing the first division with the a championship. This is a good idea. I would have a ten team premier (it would strengthen the a Championship and was suggested in the genesis report) add b teams for those who want one and encourage Kildare, Kilkenny, Monaghan, Carlow, Tralee back to the league by reducing the Registration fee. If there were a 8 Team north and 8 team south with playoffs for promotion. Lower travelling costs. Having two more "big clubs" (like Bray and Athlone) may help crowds too. With reduced fee's, lower travelling costs. it may be possible for clubs not to make a loss. The A Championship may even become appealing for big Junior/Intermediate clubs if they see teams not loosing hand over fist.

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There was a lot of things stated in the Genesis Report, doesn't all mean they were worth implementing. 12 teams should be the absolute minimum imo, provides more variety and geographical spread for starters. Also removes the pathetic lets play each other 4 times

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Originally Posted by citybone

Someone suggested replacing the first division with the a championship. This is a good idea. I would have a ten team premier (it would strengthen the a Championship and was suggested in the genesis report) add b teams for those who want one and encourage Kildare, Kilkenny, Monaghan, Carlow, Tralee back to the league by reducing the Registration fee. If there were a 8 Team north and 8 team south with playoffs for promotion. Lower travelling costs. Having two more "big clubs" (like Bray and Athlone) may help crowds too. With reduced fee's, lower travelling costs. it may be possible for clubs not to make a loss. The A Championship may even become appealing for big Junior/Intermediate clubs if they see teams not loosing hand over fist.

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Bray outside the top flight? We all know that's never going to happen! ;)

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Originally Posted by legendz

Like Kerry, the Mayo League competed in the U21 league and the League Cup. A club then took it on in the A Championship. The first step upon some return would be for the Mayo League to enter the U19 league. As long as underage is looked after, a team at senior level could come in time if the interest, desire and structures are there.

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Harps played Mayo League in the League Cup at the start of the season and there was less than 50 people there.

An already existing club side like Castlebar Celtic would be a welcome addition, but a league team wouldn't work in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by citybone

encourage Kildare, Kilkenny, Monaghan, Carlow, Tralee back to the league

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Of the teams you mentioned there only Tralee still have an adult men's team AFAIK. It's not as simple as just opening the door and inviting these extinct clubs back into the fold with promises that everything will be grand this time.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Harps played Mayo League in the League Cup at the start of the season and there was less than 50 people there.

An already existing club side like Castlebar Celtic would be a welcome addition, but a league team wouldn't work in my opinion.

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It would at U19 level.

With the Premier having returned to 12, I doubt it'll return to 10. There was an opportunity to merge the first division and A championship, it was taken so it's a non-runner.