Why Shels doing well in Europe is important for all LOI teams.

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27/09/2004, 6:10 PM
eoinh

Why Shels doing well in Europe is important for all LOI teams.

Heres a practical example.

A poster on Bert Kassies board has done out the seedings for the next season based on league teams positions at present (that can change obviously).

Heres Shels position on the 13/9

Champions League
Qualifying round 1
seeded
APOEL Nicosia Cyp 5,694 C Q1
Haka Fin 3,158 C Q1
Gorica Slv 2,969 C Q1
Zrinjski Bos 2,364 C Q1
Metalurgs Liepaja Let 2,089 C Q1
Sheriff Tiraspol Mol 2,089 C Q1
Dinamo Tbilisi Geo 1,814 C Q1
Kaunas Lit 1,759 C Q1
Hafnarfl�rdur IJsl 1,484 C Q1
Rabotnicki Mac 1,484 C Q1
BATE Barysau WRu 1,347 C Q1
unseeded
Shelbourne Ier 1,264 C Q1
Pyunik Yerevan Arm 0,989 C Q1
Sliema Wanderers Mal 0,989 C Q1
Vllaznia Alb 0,879 C Q1
Levadia Tallinn Est 0,824 C Q1
Ards NIe 0,714 C Q1
TNS Llantsantfraid Wal 0,604 C Q1
Etzella Ettelbr�ck Lux 0,549 C Q1
Araz Aze 0,439 C Q1
HB Torshavn Far 0,329 C Q1
Irtysh Pavlodar Kaz 0,220 C

They are unseeded in next seasons champions league.

The scenario for the UEFA Cup is presented. He gives the eg of Drogheda as they were second when he did his calculations (however if city get the UEFA cup this applies to them). The seeded teams include some dodgy matchs.

UEFA-cup
Qualifying round 1
seeded
Dnipro Dnipopetrovsk Oek 13,616 U Q1 (FP)
Kalmar Zwe 4,829 U Q1 (FP)
ZTE Zaleagerzegi Hon 4,729 U Q1
Anorthosis Famagusta Cyp 4,694 U Q1
Zeljeznicar Bos 4,364 U Q1
Farul Constanta Roe 3,890 U Q1
Bansk� Bystrica Slw 3,849 U Q1
Zilina Slw 3,849 U Q1
Olympiakos Nicosia Cyp 3,694 U Q1
Bohemians Ier 3,264 U Q1
Zimbru Chisinau Mol 3,089 U Q1
Drava Slv 2,969 U Q1
Mura Slv 2,969 U Q1
Vardar Skopje Mac 2,484 U Q1
Orasje Bos 2,364 U Q1
MyPa Fin 2,158 U Q1
Tampere Fin 2,158 U Q1
Nistru Otaci Mol 2,089 U Q1
Skonto Riga Let 2,089 U Q1
Ventspils Let 2,089 U Q1
Birkirkara Mal 1,989 U Q1
Tbilisi Geo 1,814 U Q1
Torpedo Kutaisi Geo 1,814 U Q1
Atlantas Klaipeda Lit 1,759 U Q1
Ekranas Lit 1,759 U Q1
�A Akranes IJsl 1,484 U Q1
�BV Vestmannaeyjar IJsl 1,484 U Q1
unseeded
Pobeda Prilep Mac 1,484 U Q1
Dinamo Minsk WRu 1,347 U Q1
Shakhtyor Soligorsk WRu 1,347 U Q1
Vaduz Lie 1,320 U Q1
Drogheda Ier 1,264 U Q1
Ararat Arm 0,989 U Q1 (FP)
Banants Yerevan Arm 0,989 U Q1
Hibernians Mal 0,989 U Q1
MIKA Ashtarak Arm 0,989 U Q1
Elbasani Alb 0,879 U Q1
Tirana Alb 0,879 U Q1
Flora Tallinn Est 0,824 U Q1
TVMK Tallinn Est 0,824 U Q1
Ballymena NIe 0,714 U Q1
Cliftonville NIe 0,714 U Q1
Bangor Wal 0,604 U Q1
Caersws Wal 0,604 U Q1
Dudelange Lux 0,549 U Q1
Hesperange Lux 0,549 U Q1
Inter Baku Aze 0,439 U Q1
Karabakh Agdam Aze 0,439 U Q1
B36 Torshavn Far 0,329 U Q1
NS� Runavik Far 0,329 U Q1
Kairat Almaty Kaz 0,220 U Q1
Tobol Qostanai Kaz 0,220 U Q1
Atletic d'Escaldes And 0,000 U Q1
Cailungo SMa 0,000 U Q1

However after shels match against Lille look what happens.
Update 20 september

Champions League
Qualifying round 1
seeded
APOEL Nicosia Cyp 5,694 C Q1
Gorica Slv 4,079 C Q1
Haka Fin 3,158 C Q1
Shelbourne Ier 2,374 C Q1
Zrinjski Bos 2,364 C Q1
Metalurgs Liepaja Let 2,199 C Q1
Sheriff Tiraspol Mol 2,089 C Q1
Torpedo Kutaisi Geo 1,814 C Q1
Kaunas Lit 1,759 C Q1
Rabotnicki Mac 1,484 C Q1
Hafnarfl�rdur IJsl 1,484 C Q1
unseeded
BATE Barysau WRu 1,347 C Q1
Sliema Wanderers Mal 0,989 C Q1
Pyunik Yerevan Arm 0,989 C Q1
Vllaznia Alb 0,879 C Q1
Levadia Tallinn Est 0,824 C Q1
Ards NIe 0,714 C Q1
TNS Llantsantfraid Wal 0,604 C Q1
Dudelange Lux 0,549 C Q1
Karabakh Agdam Aze 0,439 C Q1
HB Torshavn Far 0,329 C Q1
Kairat Almaty Kaz 0,220 C Q1

Shels get seeded !But whats nearly more important is how Drogheda (or it could be city!) move up -

UEFA-cup
Qualifying round 1
seeded
Debrecen Hon 13,839 U Q1
Halmstad Zwe 12,829 U Q1 (FP)
Steaua Bukarest Roe 11,111 U Q1
Olimpija Ljubljana Slv 7,079 U Q1
Metalist Charkov Oek 6,616 U Q1 (FP)
Anorthosis Famagusta Cyp 4,694 U Q1
Zeljeznicar Bos 4,364 U Q1
Dubnica Slw 3,849 U Q1
Bansk� Bystrica Slw 3,849 U Q1
Bohemians Ier 3,374 U Q1
Ventspils Let 3,199 U Q1
Zimbru Chisinau Mol 3,089 U Q1
Mura Slv 3,079 U Q1
AEL Limassol Cyp 2,694 U Q1
Vardar Skopje Mac 2,484 U Q1
Borac Bos 2,364 U Q1
Skonto Riga Let 2,199 U Q1
Allianssi Fin 2,158 U Q1
Tampere Fin 2,158 U Q1
Nistru Otaci Mol 2,089 U Q1
Birkirkara Mal 1,989 U Q1
Dinamo Tbilisi Geo 1,814 U Q1
Tbilisi Geo 1,814 U Q1
Ekranas Lit 1,759 U Q1
Atlantas Klaipeda Lit 1,759 U Q1
Keflavik IJsl 1,484 U Q1
�BV Vestmannaeyjar IJsl 1,484 U Q1

unseeded
Pobeda Prilep Mac 1,484 U Q1
Drogheda Ier 1,374 U Q1
Shakhtyor Soligorsk WRu 1,347 U Q1
Dinamo Minsk WRu 1,347 U Q1
Vaduz Lie 1,320 U Q1
Banants Yerevan Arm 0,989 U Q1 (FP)
MIKA Ashtarak Arm 0,989 U Q1
Pieta Mal 0,989 U Q1
Ararat Arm 0,989 U Q1
Shkumbini Alb 0,879 U Q1
Elbasani Alb 0,879 U Q1
Flora Tallinn Est 0,824 U Q1
TVMK Tallinn Est 0,824 U Q1
Cliftonville NIe 0,714 U Q1
Ballymena NIe 0,714 U Q1
Caersws Wal 0,604 U Q1
Carmarthen Wal 0,604 U Q1
Rosport Lux 0,549 U Q1
Etzella Ettelbr�ck Lux 0,549 U Q1
Baku Aze 0,439 U Q1
Araz Aze 0,439 U Q1
B36 Torshavn Far 0,329 U Q1
NS� Runavik Far 0,329 U Q1
Tobol Qostanai Kaz 0,220 U Q1
Atyrau Kaz 0,220 U Q1
Ranger's And 0,000 U Q1
Tre Fiori SMa 0,000 U Q1

A couple of more good results by shels would get the LOI clubs seeded and look at the potential draws. many of them are very beatable.

Its just a pity Longford and Bohs screwed up!
27/09/2004, 8:23 PM
higgins

Ah at last someone who can see past there nose and is making a bit of sense!!!!

well done :D

Shels barring a diaster will finish top and apart from getting the extra irish coefficient points also got an extra point for themselves so should be seeded 100% and with some 2 more wins would make the seeds of the second round maybe!!

Bohs due to there extra seeding are also 100% sure of getting seeded

But you are right that the cup winners will be also seeded if shels can at least pull off a draw in france...

Best of luck to cork and id love to have more teams in europe but i think it may be the intertoto again lads :(

one other interesting thing is that there are 52 teams in uefas list of countries and we are currently at 38 and moving up up up !!
3 european teams are granted for a country ranked 38th but if we move a little higher we could get 4 entrants into europe every year and then maybe cork could have a better chance??

The small minded people amaze me!!!
27/09/2004, 8:47 PM
Poor Student

One thing must be factored in here though. In the 2000/01 season when Bohs knocked Aberdeen and beat Kaiserslautern in one leg Ireland accumulated more points that season that we actually have this season! That was 5 years ago and the coefficient only extends back that far. So next year unless we have a similar year our coefficient is only going to drop. So we need to do extremely well next year only to stand still and then continue to do so to improve. So not only will it be a luxury that our other clubs get their act together and Shels do the same, it will be a big step backwards if they don't. As good as Shels did this year it's unlikely they will get to the CL qualifying round 3 again next year. Hajduk were one of the worse seeded teams in the second round last year when the likes of Shaktar, CSKA Moscow and Spart Prague could have been drawn. So unless they get another good draw next year and play to their best the second round is as far as they will make it. If even that, as nothing is academic for an Irish side! We really need the other teams be they Bohs, Drogs, Cork, Waterford, Derry or Longford to at least win their first round ties as well in the UEFA to do ok.
27/09/2004, 9:01 PM
Slash/ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by eoinh

Champions League
Qualifying round 1
seeded
APOEL Nicosia Cyp 5,694 C Q1
Gorica Slv 4,079 C Q1
Haka Fin 3,158 C Q1
Shelbourne Ier 2,374 C Q1
Zrinjski Bos 2,364 C Q1
Metalurgs Liepaja Let 2,199 C Q1
Sheriff Tiraspol Mol 2,089 C Q1
Torpedo Kutaisi Geo 1,814 C Q1
Kaunas Lit 1,759 C Q1
Rabotnicki Mac 1,484 C Q1
Hafnarfl�rdur IJsl 1,484 C Q1

If I could be ambitious for a minute, do you know what co-efficent the lowest team who are put in the second round of the CL qualifyers are? If Shels could make the UEFA cup group stages we could really add to that co-efficent
27/09/2004, 9:02 PM
A face

.................................................

Bohs and Longford feiced it up alright but you would have thought that both would have got past the first round handy enough. Just bad luck ..... the pressure is on for all clubs next year though. That barr is being rasied all the time
27/09/2004, 9:08 PM
A face

.................................................. ........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/ED

If I could be ambitious for a minute

You can be ambitious for a year if you want !! :D
27/09/2004, 9:15 PM
higgins

ok well heres the deal!!

if you are between 4 coefficient points and about 8 you will avoid playing in the 1st qualifying round of the champions league...

but because of the number of teams in the second round you wont be seeded unless you have a coefficient of over about 8 at the moment.

The diaster could be that shels end up avoiding the 1st round and have to go straight into a round with the likes of hajduk or better !! and realistically getting coefficient points from that round is tough...

In terms of the overall standing if the about doesnt happen :)

Shels will be seeded in the first round of the champions league and two wins would be about 70% likely i would think

our outgoing coefficient is 1.666 next year so to beat that

shels get say 1 win 0.333 1 draw .166 and our other two entrants in uefa that are seeded get two wins at 0.333 too ?
total about 1.166 for one round alone....

6 more games should see us get over 1.666

then anything after that is a plus

we will easily beat 1.666 if all our teams are seeded

this year we only had bohs and longford seeded and we have close to the 1.666??
27/09/2004, 9:16 PM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by A face

Bohs and Longford feiced it up alright but you would have thought that both would have got past the first round handy enough. Just bad luck ..... the pressure is on for all clubs next year though. That barr is being rasied all the time

Bohs I expected but Longford I expected to go out. Don't be fooled by Vaduz being Liechtensteinien. Longford are one of our average clubs and they are a Swiss second division club you missed out on promotion by the skin of their teeth and are highly ambitious and have been rapidly improving. They get into Europe every year because they crush all the amateur Liechtensein teams in the cup.
27/09/2004, 9:18 PM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/ED

If I could be ambitious for a minute, do you know what co-efficent the lowest team who are put in the second round of the CL qualifyers are? If Shels could make the UEFA cup group stages we could really add to that co-efficent

Last year's lowest seeded team in that round had 8 points. Shelbourne are a mile off getting there I'm afraid.
27/09/2004, 9:26 PM
Slash/ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poor Student

Last year's lowest seeded team in that round had 8 points. Shelbourne are a mile off getting there I'm afraid.

Well, three wins (So long as they're not in qualifyers), isn't it? If we made the UEFA cup group stage we'd probably have to beat Lille which would be one of the three anyway, a few results in the group stages wouldn't be out of the question. Of course, we have to beat Lille first, and were still the underdogs there.
27/09/2004, 9:30 PM
higgins

shels have got something like 2.374 at the moment

a win in france would get shels 2 points for themselves
we go to 4.374

the 2 points is divided between the 3 entrants into this years competition so 0.666 is added to the irish coefficient and gets us to 5. something!!!

then we have four more games!!
27/09/2004, 9:58 PM
thejollyrodger

Did you factor in the points lost from 5 years ago ?

IF Shels beat Lille and its a big IF. I cant see Shels winning out in France. Lille are a good team and are playing well.

Also it remains to be seen if Shels or other E.L clubs can make it through to the 2nd or even 3rd round next year. Split were the worst of a bad bunch and Shels could really be up against it next year. one step forward two step back.
28/09/2004, 1:12 AM
higgins

Hajduk were the worst of a bad bunch??
What in gods name is that your on about? :confused:

ok so i didnt take away the 0.555.... so its not that good but when your in the 1st and 2 nd proper rounds its the 1's and 2's that count really..

with a bit of luck longford wont be let discrace the league again next year and someone else like drogheda will have a chance to do something?? I wouldnt think they will do much but maybe...

Looks like bohs will finish second to me and if they did i think they wouldnt have as bad a year as this season,, they couldnt
With shels nicely seeded at the moment a good draw could mean two wins..
28/09/2004, 2:34 PM
pete

Those figures can be slightly misleasing as shel$ will now have a higher club ranking than the average eL ranking.

All this talk of Uefa group stages is mute anyway as shel$ ain't gonna beat Lille.
28/09/2004, 5:53 PM
dynamo kerry

here, isn't it true that the points for qualifying rounds were halved since bohs good games 5 yrs ago? it's the same for all countries right?
for instance,slovakia, sweden, finland and others lose their best year for a while.

as i see it we should be no worse off than we are now. and it looks to me like it tightens up the table
28/09/2004, 6:26 PM
Poor Student

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynamo kerry

here, isn't it true that the points for qualifying rounds were halved since bohs good games 5 yrs ago? it's the same for all countries right?
for instance,slovakia, sweden, finland and others lose their best year for a while.

as i see it we should be no worse off than we are now. and it looks to me like it tightens up the table

Not sure what you're on about exactly but our co-efficient for the 2000/01 season is better than the 9 countries ahead of us and all of the ones below us. Therefore it can only help them. Those countries you mentioned are a mile off us by the way.

If Shels won it would help Ireland immensely, but even a draw would be great.
28/09/2004, 6:30 PM
dynamo kerry

sorry= went back and looked again and ealised i was talking crap

however, we would only be marginally worse off next year with belarus and lictenstein stepping up ahead of us. lictehstein aguably got 2 points we should have had.
28/09/2004, 6:36 PM
thejollyrodger

Quote:

Hajduk were the worst of a bad bunch??

I meant that Shels could have got a team that was a lot harder to beat. worst of the a good bunch.
28/09/2004, 6:44 PM
Slash/ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

I meant that Shels could have got a team that was a lot harder to beat. worst of the a good bunch.

We could have got a worse team too, that's the whole concept of the draw system really...

And I think it's fair to say having beat Split we could have got a draw just a tad easier then bleedin' Deportivo too.
28/09/2004, 8:23 PM
higgins

Hadjuk were one of the worst teams in the draw that is true and their ranking has been slipping so we were lucky with the draw in a sense but it does go to show the quality in the 2nd round..

You are not talking too much crap with the 2000 ranking as there used to be one qualifying round in uefa cup but its gone to 2 qualifying rounds the year after bohs did well...

In effect the uefa cup entrants need to get through two rounds before they can can earn points for themselves.. where bohs only had to get through one round i thought??

and PETE thanks for your insight into the game on thursday
Why not fax your words of wisdom to the team hotel while your at it!!

you can see the coefficient chart for next season taking away the points we are going to lose, currently we are placed 42nd with 2.498

A shels win would be worth 0.666 to that figure and move us up to 39th and see us seeded if we could maintain that position
Thats how big this game is...

Another point is that Liechtenstein have moved from 43rd to 38th for next year thanks to the wonderfull people at longford. we need to beat the unseeded teams if we dont want to slip behind again
28/09/2004, 11:03 PM
Poor Student

I wouldn't worry too much about Liechtenstein. They are fairly irrelevant. They can only ever have one team (their cup winners i.e. Vaduz) in the UEFA Cup and no CL representation as they have no professional league.
29/09/2004, 2:11 AM
higgins

Oh yeah thats a good point !!

But i am sure if they rise enough then they would get a champions league spot???
they do have a league of some sort only i think that useless crowd dont play there..

it moves all irish teams down the list one place in the uefa cup too? only 1 spot but for every year we dont put teams/leagues away like that they rise above us and we fall further behind

Shels have been great in europe this year but the 1 error we made was with the icelandic side when we coudnt beat them either home or away ( i know i know we tried to do that !! ) but im just saying its important when playing teams close to your ranking that you at least keep it even in terms of coefficient points
29/09/2004, 7:14 AM
gspain

Shelbourne have a club coefficient now so if they win the league are certain to be seeded in the champions league 1st qualifying round.

Drogheda/Cork/Bohs would be seeded next season if they win the league unless another club with a coefficient below them wins their domestic league - only one I know of is Bikirkara of Malta who are already 4 points behind Sliema Wanderers after 4 games. So if Drogheda etc pull it off they will take a keen interest in the Maltese league for the rest of their season.

We're a long way off an automatic 2nd round spot - what would help is if our 3 teams were seeded in the first round of the CL and UEFA and made progress. We've been very unfortunate in the past 3 years as each season one of our best equipped sides at the time have ended up in the Inter Toto and while all did us proud and the league proud there are no points available for it.
29/09/2004, 6:09 PM
eoinh

All teams from Liechtenstein play in the swiss leagues. vaduz are a second division team.