B International 1990 v England

this may have been discussed before but does anyone know what are squad was for the B international against England in 1990 - i thought the likes Quinn and Davis Kelly were all ready established - a few others mentioned in the highlights below include brian mooney(liverpool) and Derek Brazil (man united) and mark kelly (portsmouth) and milligan (oldham) Coyle (bolton) - anyone know what the full squad was? can't find it anywhere, england had a fairlt decent team as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNwg6HxYjwc

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Originally Posted by Royal rover

this may have been discussed before but does anyone know what are squad was for the B international against England in 1990 - i thought the likes Quinn and Davis Kelly were all ready established - a few others mentioned in the highlights below include brian mooney(liverpool) and Derek Brazil (man united) and mark kelly (portsmouth) and milligan (oldham) Coyle (bolton) - anyone know what the full squad was? can't find it anywhere, england had a fairlt decent team as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNwg6HxYjwc

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Not the full squad but the players that took to the pitch (including substitutes) were:


IREB: Gary Kelly, Dennis Irwin (Terry Phelan 59'), Jim Beglin, Derek Brazil, Pat Scully, Alan McLoughlin (Kenneth de Mange 89'), Brian Mooney, Mike Milligan (Gary Waddock 59'), Niall Quinn, David Kelly (Owen Coyle 72'), Mark Kelly

Found at http://www.rsssf.com/tablese/eng-b-intres-det.html via FiremanDan's comment at http://www.ybig.ie/forum/ireland-b-v...opic14580.html

thanks sam - who was ken De Mange?

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Originally Posted by Royal rover

thanks sam - who was ken De Mange?

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Bit of info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_DeMange

G Kelly (Bury)
A Kelly (Preston)
D Irwin (Oldham)
J Beglin (Leeds)
T Phelan (Wimbledon)
P Scully (Arsenal)
L Daish (Cambridge)
D Brazil (Man Utd)
M Milligan (Oldham)
A McLoughlin (Swindon)
G Waddock (Millwall)
K De Mange (Hull)
M Kelly (Portsmouth)
O Coyle (Airdrie)
D Kelly (West Ham)
N Quinn (Arsenal)
B Mooney (Preston)
M Russell (Scarborough)

Now I've done that, I'm tempted to do a GreenScene piece on the game. :D

Waddock, Beglin and Quinn in a B team....? Seems odd.

Was there ever an inkling of Beglin getting back into the senior squad after his leg break?

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

Waddock, Beglin and Quinn in a B team....? Seems odd.

Was there ever an inkling of Beglin getting back into the senior squad after his leg break?

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Remember we had some depth at the time and these players were not obvious first team options. In regards to Beglin, he never recovered from his leg injury. Bob Paisley wanted him to retire and when Beglin joined Leeds, Paisley made it known that he felt it was a big mistake on Beglin's part. History proved Paisley right.

Sad for Beglin, I just watched an interview from LFCTV there on it. Was there serious talk at the time of him coming back into the senior set-up?

Seems strange Waddock would be there though? He was in squads for a good few years up to 1990 World Cup, no? And was only not taken in a last minute decision by Jack....?

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

Seems strange Waddock would be there though? He was in squads for a good few years up to 1990 World Cup, no? And was only not taken in a last minute decision by Jack....?

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There's actually some interesting parallels between Waddock and Beglin. Waddock was injured playing for QPR in around 1985/86 when he had already won 19 of his 21 caps for Ireland. He actually received an insurance payout from QPR and was supposed to retire from the game.

He decided to rebuild his career in Belgium and handed back his insurance payment when he went to play for Charleroi. By remaining fit for two seasons he got the attention of Millwall and returned to English football in 1989. When he played in that B International it was his first Irish call-up in over four years after many feared his career was over. He only played in two friendlies for Jack (Soviet Union and Turkey) and he seemed to have won his place in the squad on the back of those appearances. In the end Jack had a change of mind and decided to bring Alan McLoughlin instead. After all the career heart-break he had been through it was a terribly harsh thing to do to someone like Waddock. To be fair he never criticized Jack for it and had always been very dignified.

He scored a couple of terrific goals in his Eoin Hand days.

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

Waddock, Beglin and Quinn in a B team....? Seems odd.

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It was worse in 1994. Charlton picked Townsend, Whelan, McAteer and McLoughlin as his midfield. All of whom played in the world cup about 4/5 months earlier. Townsend and Whelan were on the way down at that stage. Scandalous

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Originally Posted by EastTerracer

all in 1989. When he played in that B International it was his first Irish call-up in over four years after many feared his career was over. He only played in two friendlies for Jack (Soviet Union and Turkey) and he seemed to have won his place in the squad on the back of those appearances. In the end Jack had a change of mind and decided to bring Alan McLoughlin instead. After all the career heart-break he had been through it was a terribly harsh thing to do to someone like Waddock. To be fair he never criticized Jack for it and had always been very dignified.

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in fairness to Jack the decision was kind of forced upon him by injury concerns over ray houghton i think. well, thats how Jack explained it anyway

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Originally Posted by gastric

Remember we had some depth at the time and these players were not obvious first team options. In regards to Beglin, he never recovered from his leg injury. Bob Paisley wanted him to retire and when Beglin joined Leeds, Paisley made it known that he felt it was a big mistake on Beglin's part. History proved Paisley right.

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Jim Beglin won the Championship (Div 2 as it was then) with Leeds in 1990 before finally retiring the following year, why was that a big mistake? I'd say it was a nice way to finish a career cruely cut short. Certainly better than retiring in 1989 and sitting on his arse for a year.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

in fairness to Jack the decision was kind of forced upon him by injury concerns over ray houghton i think. well, thats how Jack explained it anyway

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Correct, although Houghton turned out to be fit there was concern over his injury and McLoughlin had just had a great season for Swindon ending in a play of win (although they were relegated before the season started due nto finanical irregularities). Jack didn't think Waddock could cover Ray's position so turned to McLoughlin. Said it was the hardest decision he ever had to make. I was gutted for Waddock at the time, I'd always liked him when I was a kid and was delighted to see him come back from such a bad injury. It was awful for him. Jack actually said later that he'd considered leaving Stapleton out as he thought he'd enough strikers in Aldridge, Quinn, Cas and Kelly and didn't see him giving Stapleton a game but wanted to reward him for the years of service he'd given. Said he nearly regretted it afterwards when Stapleton spent the entire trip with a sulk on his face whinging because he wasn't getting a game!

I've always felt sorry for Waddock since I learned about the World Cup thing a couple of years after....I almost shed a tear for him a few months when I was watching my team hockey his Wycombe side at home 6-0 ;)

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Correct, although Houghton turned out to be fit there was concern over his injury and McLoughlin had just had a great season for Swindon ending in a play of win (although they were relegated before the season started due nto finanical irregularities). Jack didn't think Waddock could cover Ray's position so turned to McLoughlin. Said it was the hardest decision he ever had to make. I was gutted for Waddock at the time, I'd always liked him when I was a kid and was delighted to see him come back from such a bad injury. It was awful for him. Jack actually said later that he'd considered leaving Stapleton out as he thought he'd enough strikers in Aldridge, Quinn, Cas and Kelly and didn't see him giving Stapleton a game but wanted to reward him for the years of service he'd given. Said he nearly regretted it afterwards when Stapleton spent the entire trip with a sulk on his face whinging because he wasn't getting a game!

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No doubt McLoughlin had a great season with Swindon but it was a complete shock to everyone when he was called up. Apart from that B-International mentioned above I don't think McLoughlin had been in an Irish squad and he only made his full debut a few days before the World Cup in the friendly in Malta.

When you look at the clamour for players to be called up for the Euros this year it would be the equivalent of Trap calling up Wes Hoolahan the week before the finals. Nothing wrong with that in itself but it was definitely one of the most surprising selections I can ever remember. Usually our squads of 23 were very predictable.

I remember the game well.

I also recall BBC's Barry Davies being amazed that Charlton could not find a space for Milligan in the 1990 WC squad.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Jim Beglin won the Championship (Div 2 as it was then) with Leeds in 1990 before finally retiring the following year, why was that a big mistake? I'd say it was a nice way to finish a career cruely cut short. Certainly better than retiring in 1989 and sitting on his arse for a year.

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Beglin went to Leeds after doing in his knee cartilage, which happened right after his recovery from a double compound leg fracture (plus assorted bone bits in tatters). He did in his knee cartilage a second time later on which sealed his fate. Physically he is well crocked, in permanent pain. If it wasn't a mistake to try and resurrect his career with Leeds, then he had to pay a huge price for a piddly Div 2 medal and compared to the career he could have had with Liverpool.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Jim Beglin won the Championship (Div 2 as it was then) with Leeds in 1990 before finally retiring the following year, why was that a big mistake? I'd say it was a nice way to finish a career cruely cut short. Certainly better than retiring in 1989 and sitting on his arse for a year.

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One reason Paisley wanted Beglin to retire was that he felt that Jim couldn't run properly after his injury and Paisley felt that he might end up with a worse injury if he continued to play. Beglin wasn't happy with Paisley's assessment and as you pointed out he went on to play with some success for Leeds. The only point I was making was that the injury did catch up with him as it was because of this he had to retire in the early 90s and playing for Leeds was a big step down from playing for Liverpool at the time.

In regards to Beglin getting another call up for Ireland, what I can remember is that Stan and Phelan were the obvious left backs at the time, but I am sure Jack would have considered all of his options which included Stan playing as a centre half.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Beglin went to Leeds after doing in his knee cartilage, which happened right after his recovery from a double compound leg fracture (plus assorted bone bits in tatters). He did in his knee cartilage a second time later on which sealed his fate. Physically he is well crocked, in permanent pain. If it wasn't a mistake to try and resurrect his career with Leeds, then he had to pay a huge price for a piddly Div 2 medal and compared to the career he could have had with Liverpool.

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Think you're missing the point Geysir, Gastric said that Paisley (although Dalglish was manager at that stage?) wanted Beglin to retire, not to stay at Liverpool and try to recover there, Liverpool had given up on Beglin so he'd no future there. Winning a 2nd tier title with Leeds was better than retiring at 26.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Think you're missing the point Geysir, Gastric said that Paisley (although Dalglish was manager at that stage?) wanted Beglin to retire, not to stay at Liverpool and try to recover there, Liverpool had given up on Beglin so he'd no future there. Winning a 2nd tier title with Leeds was better than retiring at 26.

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I think you're missing the point that Geysir and I are making. Granted Beglin did play on with some success, but at what cost? As Geysir pointed out he is still in pain nearly twenty years on. Was extending his career worth it? That's the essence of our argument.

As regards Paisley, while he wasn't manager at the time he still had an an insight into what was happening around the club and would have had an interest in his last signing as manager. What he said about Beglin was more out of concern for him, rather than a criticism of him.

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Originally Posted by gastric

I think you're missing the point that Geysir and I are making. Granted Beglin did play on with some success, but at what cost? As Geysir pointed out he is still in pain nearly twenty years on. Was extending his career worth it? That's the essence of our argument.

As regards Paisley, while he wasn't manager at the time he still had an an insight into what was happening around the club and would have had an interest in his last signing as manager. What he said about Beglin was more out of concern for him, rather than a criticism of him.

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Maybe I am, the impression Geysir's post gave me was that Pasiley wanted Beglin to stay and try and recover at Liverpool whereas yours was that Paisley wanted him to retire? Plenty of footballers suffer from pain following retirement due to injuries suffered, most of them have no regrets though. Having met Beglin and seen quotes about his time at Leeds he'd fall into that category. My own knees are crocked due to cartlidge issues and I never got beyond AUL!

knees are like target signs in the aul

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Maybe I am, the impression Geysir's post gave me was that Pasiley wanted Beglin to stay and try and recover at Liverpool whereas yours was that Paisley wanted him to retire?

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Nah, Liverpool were not interested in keeping Beglin as a player, if Paisley said what's attributed to him here, then it was out of concern for Beglin.

We could have had a very decent team at Euro88 if both Lawrenson and Beglin were not forced into premature retirement, not to mention Brady.

The odd things here is that Irwin was just about the best full back playing in England at the time - yet failed to make the Irish 1st team squad. I recall at the time that this was a big oversight by jack.

Irwin was with Oldham in the old second division at the time, not disputing what you say but who were the fullbacks that went in the squad, without checking I am presuming it was Hughton, Morris, who else?

EDIT: wiki is your friend. John Anderson is the only other defender I see in the squad and I know nothin about him (+ McCarthy, Moran and McGrath - Midfielder come CB I guess at the time).

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Originally Posted by Junior

Irwin was with Oldham in the old second division at the time, not disputing what you say but who were the fullbacks that went in the squad, without checking I am presuming it was Hughton, Morris, who else?

EDIT: wiki is your friend. John Anderson is the only other defender I see in the squad and I know nothin about him (+ McCarthy, Moran and McGrath - Midfielder come CB I guess at the time).

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John Anderson was a good player for Newcastle United and he benefited from the fact that Jack knew him from his own short spell as manager at St James Park.

Born and bred in Dublin so he wasn't one of the diaspora who Jack specialised in seeking out.

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Originally Posted by Junior

Irwin was with Oldham in the old second division at the time, not disputing what you say but who were the fullbacks that went in the squad, without checking I am presuming it was Hughton, Morris, who else?

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Irwin was quoted around that time that his move to Man utd was more important to him than getting into the Italy 90 squad. I know he went on to represent us excellently afterwards but a disappointing thing for him to have said

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Originally Posted by EastTerracer

John Anderson was a good player for Newcastle United and he benefited from the fact that Jack knew him from his own short spell as manager at St James Park.

Born and bred in Dublin so he wasn't one of the diaspora who Jack specialised in seeking out.

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went on to have a good career as the referee on gladiators

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Originally Posted by Junior

Irwin was with Oldham in the old second division at the time, not disputing what you say but who were the fullbacks that went in the squad, without checking I am presuming it was Hughton, Morris, who else?

EDIT: wiki is your friend. John Anderson is the only other defender I see in the squad and I know nothin about him (+ McCarthy, Moran and McGrath - Midfielder come CB I guess at the time).

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And Irwin was in a different class to Morris - hence the move by Man U - Fergie spotted him before Jack.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

Irwin was quoted around that time that his move to Man utd was more important to him than getting into the Italy 90 squad. I know he went on to represent us excellently afterwards but a disappointing thing for him to have said

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Surely it wasn't his decision to make? He probably meant that he wasn't playing at the highest level yet and you can't really be expecting to make a World Cup squad ahead of more senior players unless you are. I'd imagine it'd be the same if you asked James McClean today whether he expects to be in the Euro squad - he'll say his first priority is keeping his place at Sunderland.

From what I can remember (albeit i was young!) Irwin was a class act even when he was with Oldham but Jack like Trap today wasn't one for changing a solid squad and the only issue pre-1990 was Waddock. <br><br>

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

From what I can remember (albeit i was young!) Irwin was a class act even when he was with Oldham but Jack like Trap today wasn't one for changing a solid squad and the only issue pre-1990 was Waddock. <br><br>

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He was but he'd been playing in the 2nd tier and had had to rebuild his career afate being wrongly let go by Leeds along with Terry Phelan. WC 90 was too early for him imo...

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

He was but he'd been playing in the 2nd tier and had had to rebuild his career afate being wrongly let go by Leeds along with Terry Phelan. WC 90 was too early for him imo...

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Don't agree with you there.

He was not too early for Man U - & he was a first teamer from Aug. Fergie would not have invested in Morris (nothing against Morris - great servant) - but the difference in class was obvious even then, although Irwin was in the 2nd tier.

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Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

Don't agree with you there.

He was not too early for Man U - & he was a first teamer from Aug. Fergie would not have invested in Morris (nothing against Morris - great servant) - but the difference in class was obvious even then, although Irwin was in the 2nd tier.

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He'd come good that season during Oldham's run to the cup semi, it was the first season he'd shown anything since his early days at Leeds. We'd already qualified by the time he hit form and the likes of Morris were playing at a higher standard week in week out. It would have been a very big call to bring him in as a rookie and start him albeit that Jack had done something similar in 88 with Morris himself.

And I dunno about Fergie's investments back then, he bought Mal Donaghy and Mike Phelan! :)