Just wondering what people would consider an acceptable result when (if) we get to the World Cup. Is qualification in itself enough?
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Just wondering what people would consider an acceptable result when (if) we get to the World Cup. Is qualification in itself enough?
As an Irish fan I believe we can go out and beat any team in the world while acknowledging we do not have the strength in depth that many other nations have (e.g England, France, Brazil, etc). The Greeks(who are not as good a side as us IMO) have proved that anyone can win a major championship but that doesn't mean we should expect it. If we qualify(I think we will but am not counting any chickens yet) then we should all believe we can win the competition. That said there should be no recriminations should we only make second round/Quarter finals/etc provided we don't get eliminated with a weak gutless performance like we saw in Basle during the last qualifiers. Basically we should all believe we can win in Germany but should not expect it as we are a very small nation that has always punched above it's weight.
I don't know, you look at the US, South Korea and Turkey in the last WC and then Greece in the European championships and some of the results we've had over the last few years and I don't see any reason why an Irish team should go to WC just hoping to get out of the group or to the QF's.
On our day we can give anyone a game, the question is can we have five or six consecutive days like that.
But Dav is right, at the moment I'd be happy with us qualifying, the dreaming can start later on.
Looking at the last couple of international tournaments I think that the traditionally strong teams are not as strong as they once were while the so called weaker teams like ourselves and the likes of the Scandanavian countries will begin to feature on a more regular basis in the latter stages of tournaments. I'm not saying that the likes of France and Spain etc don't have the players. Far from it. What I am saying is that these teams have a much higher percentage of players involved in the latter stages of the Champions League than the likes of ourselves etc. The result of this is that some of their players have played a far higher number of games in a season than players involved with teams that aren't playing in the CL. There is also the psychological effect that this must have on their players. Most of our players play in England. Players from other countries of a similar standard intl. team generally play in leagues of countries like Spain, Italy, France, Germany etc. The difference between these players and the ones that play for the top countries is that they play for mid-table sides in these leagues so when they play for their country it's always a big game for them. I get the impression from some of the big name players that playing for their countries is nearly an inconvenience nowadays, it's just another game for them. As a result of this I think that there will be more suprises in these tournaments from here on out. I'm not saying that the likes of ourselves is going to win every tournamnet from here on out but I do feel that it's a lot more feasable that we can reach the latter stages. Anyway that's my thinking on it for what it's worth.
I think our manager and our players are now of the opinion we should always aim for the best result possible. There is no danger in expecting to win and preparing to win games. Whereas there is a danger of selling yourself short. We should expect to qualify and then when we get out there we should expect to get out of our group, as we have done at every world cup finals, When we get out of our group we should then treat every match on its merits and do our best to win and if that means us winning the cup well thats what we should do.
Semi Finals (realistically)
Could you explain why you find that so amusing?Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
We have certaintly an excellent chance of making the Semi's, Just looking around some of the teams, they are all in decline...Quote:
Yeah..... ....right....
(listed are furtherist each can reach)
Americas
Brasil - To Win
Argentina - Semi (MAYBE)
USA - average Last 16
Europe
Gemany - on the way down 1/4 finals or Semi (the way they play)
France - as above
Spain - please wait for the usual spanish collapse last 16
Italy - Finall or Semis (altough not a great side anymore)
Czech - (nice football, but once closed down look average) last 16
Portugal - 1/4's
Holland - (Contining with their in fighting... golden days are long gone) last 16
Russia - Crap, group stage
England - Average, 1/4 Finals
Asia
Korea ?
Japan ?
Africa
A few average teams but nothing that jumps out
The topic isn't what we should be aiming for but what is acceptable. A good performance is acceptable by me TBH since we (usually) have the lowest populated country in the competition.
To be honest I can't agree that we don't have a squad capable of doing very well. If you look at our players, Given, Carr, Finnan, O'Shea, Duff, Roy Keane and Robbie Keane would make or be very close to any international side in the world. If Milller and Ried reach their potential thats two more you can add to that list by the time the WC comes around.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
I think most of the players above would make the England team and they go into every competition expecting to win the thing.
You have to be doing that on purpose. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by carnstien
... yeah, but they never win do they, in any event I'd disagree with a lot of thatQuote:
Originally Posted by carnstien
Given is a good shot stopper and certainly better than what England have at the mo'
Carr maybe if he stays fit
Finnan and O'Shea wouldn't get near most quality international sides IMO, though O'Shea would be closer given the CL experience
Duff would walk onto a lot of teams if he stays fit
Keano would too, but again, he's a shadow of his former self and come 2006 I'm not sure how much of an influence he'll be
Robbie Keane is an average premiership striker, most sides that will qualify for WC2006 will have a better option
Miller wil probably come good, I'm not sure that Reid ( ei ei oh! :eek: ) will be premiership player next season let alone a world beater.
We don't have nine world class players I'm afraid, but then Irish teams have always been about more than the sum of their parts and punching above their weight. IMO we have one WC player at the moment and one legend who's on his swansong.
There are some very promising youngsters coming through though.
Would agree with most of what you said there tiktok. I do reckon Shay is world class though. I would probably only rate Niemi over him in the Premiership. Carr on current form would struggle to get past Neville as England right back and there is no way O'shea would get in at left back for England ahead of arguably their man of the tournament Ashley Cole. I think Robbie will be one of the great strikers in world football once he starts taking more chances. Only 23 remember. I think people forget sometimes how young he is.
As for Reid in Miller, they have great potential but would no more walk into any International team in the world at this stage than Darren Fletcher or David Bentley. Reid is running short of Premiership offers at the moment and i doubt Spurs will return with an improved offer now Santini is in charge.
How do the qaulifiers work? Is it top 2 from each group automatic and 3rd is playoff? Or top is automatic and second is playoff?
As it's been said-things willchange between now and then-we need to qualify. We CAN'T afford to drop points at home and we can't let the 'weaker' teams in our group get away with draws. We should be looking to win every match but drawing to the likes of Israel, Cyprus and the Faroes will be unnaceptable.
This (or better) should be possible and should do it for us, dependant on other results obviously;
Cyprus-Win home and away
Israel-Win home and away
Faroes-Win home and away
Switzerland-Win home, Draw/win away
France-Win/Draw home, Draw away
I know it's a tall order but we CAN do it and if we keep a good strong sqaud with players from the youth sqaud, Aiden and other new face coming up we should do it. We don't want a situation where we're sunk if Duff/Keane/Shay get injured.
That's my views :D
The winner of the groups qualify automatically. The 2 best 2nd place teams also qualify automatically. The other 6 2nd place teams go into the playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by liam88
I have said this 100 times already, don't underestimate Israel on their home turf. They haven't been beaten at home since 1999 (13 matches) and their home record is twice as good as Switzerland. I'd expect us to get a better result in Basel than Israel. I think we can beat every team at home but I won't be expecting anything in Paris.
Davros, 1 post would have probably been OK. :D ;)
I Think Finnan is vastly underated. He will play Champions league football with Liverpool this season and I think by this time next year he will be given the credit he deserves.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiktok
O'Shea like Miller and rEId is still just potential but I fully believe that those three players will become world class.
As for Robbie, I would take him over Micheal Owen at the moment and when you compare Robbie to so called superior strikers like Henry, Trezeguet, Totti etc. you have to note that Robbie has performed on the big stage in the past, where as many others with bigger reputations have not.
Was that when they all went on a drink/drugs/dames fest and go battered by Denmark the following day? Don't think they've played much at home since either. However I was witness to our first visit to the Holy Land and it was a 3-0 disgrace by what looks like the role models for the Israelis the night before they took on Denmark. I'm hoping that Israel will take more points off our rivals than ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
Last 26 home results:
Israel (ISR) 1:1 Moldova (MDA)
Israel (ISR) 2:1 Lithuania (LTU)
Israel (ISR) 6:0 Azerbaijan (AZE)
Israel (ISR) 0:0 Moldova (MDA)
Israel (ISR) 2:0 Armenia (ARM)
Israel (ISR) 1:1 Austria (AUT)
Israel (ISR) 1:1 Spain (ESP)
Israel (ISR) 1:0 Moldova (MDA)
Israel (ISR) 2:0 Uzbekistan (UZB)
Israel (ISR) 3:1 Bosnia-Herzegovina (BIH)
Israel (ISR) 2:0 Liechtenstein (LIE)
Israel (ISR) 1:1 Georgia (GEO)
Israel (ISR) 4:1 Russia (RUS)
Israel (ISR) 0:5 Denmark (DEN) - 13.11.1999
Israel (ISR) 8:0 San Marino (SMR)
Israel (ISR) 5:0 Austria (AUT)
Israel (ISR) 3:0 Cyprus (CYP)
Israel (ISR) 2:0 Latvia (LVA)
Israel (ISR) 2:1 Belarus (BLR)
Israel (ISR) 0:1 Norway (NOR)
Israel (ISR) 7:0 Estonia (EST)
Israel (ISR) 2:0 Yugoslavia (YUG)
Israel (ISR) 1:2 Spain (ESP)
Israel (ISR) 2:1 Argentina (ARG)
Israel (ISR) 2:0 Poland (POL)
Israel (ISR) 4:0 Turkey (TUR)
Also, Russia have only lost once at home since 1998 (25 matches) and that was against Israel last year.
Impressive home record for a so called weaker team particularly the drubbings of Turkey, Estonia, Azerbaijan, and San Marino. Don't think they'll challenge for the group but 3 points there would be a fantastic result.
eirebhoy you truly are master of the stat. :)
I dont understand this thread, carnstein is arguing that we should be going into world cups expecting to qualify and then expecting to win it without shouting out of the roof tops about it, what is the harm in that. I do not see any benefit in under selling yourself or even as some people may say trying to be a realist. The greece team did not win Euro 2004 been realists. They believed they could win it, with a game plan. They did not have any world class players. Germany got the final in 2002 and we played them off the park for long periods. Why did they get there cause the believed it from the start. Never sell your country short, the worst that can happen by expecting to win is to be dissappointed.
If memory serves me their last two games in their qualifying campaign for USA '94 were home fixtures against Bulgaria and Israel. with them needing just one point from the two games to secure automatic qualification. They lost both. Here's hoping for more of the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Rubbish it is time that this country expects things of itself and puts itself under pressure to do things, I have no doubt that teh Greek manager told the press one thing and his players another. For too long we have been the jack the lads that can have a party win lose or draw. Well its time we start expecting to win games and tournaments. As I said the worst that can happen is your are dissappointed. That is not saying you cant have a good time when u travel abroad but we should expect more of ourselves,
From the Irish times by Tom Humphries
"We crave being written off. Love the underdog tag. Our most heroic and passionate performances have been when we are proving a point. Or when we are stealing a point when we have been a goal down. Asked to just go and win a match that we should win and we panic. In major finals from Egypt to a 10-man Spanish team, that's been our wont. In qualifying we've rattled Romanians and frozen against Icelanders.
There comes a time, though (and this is quite unIrish) when you have to stand up and announce that because of the players you have and the work you are doing you expect to succeed. You have to put yourself under that pressure.
That it seems to me is what the Kerr era is about. No more kick-and-rush. No more passionate losers. No more gathering every negative press cutting and banging a fist on the table and saying let's show these *******s. It's about saying 'here we are, we're the best we can be, let's play'."........
On the field the team are looking as if they understand what their true potential is. They have a manager whose reaction to losing a lead in the Stade de France would be the same as was Keane's reaction when we lost a lead in the Amsterdam ArenA.
Saipan will influence Irish football for a long time to come. We move forward with surprisingly little affection for the old way of doing things. We'll surprise ourselves if we believe in ourselves and demand more from ourselves. Wednesday night proved that to anyone who had doubts.
Time to demand more than passion. Time to scrap the pout and postures.
Have to agree with NeilMcD, for no other reason than the fact that our first 11 is just as strong as teams like England, Czech Rep, Portugal and Germany, all of whom are sides who go into major championships expecting to win and as far as I'm concerned so should we. Qualifying should no longer be our major goal.
What a man betting against his country , how patriotic. What benefits are there from your way of thinking. IF you go into games thinnking you are beat, well then u are beat. Whereas if you believe you have a right to beat the team through hard work and keeping the ball and taking your chances well then you may go and do it. It is a defeatist attitude that will keep us down. YOu represent old ireland and to be honest i am glad it is gone. Now is the time to believe we can do things, if we dont as i said before there is nothing lost but at leat you went there trying your best and preparing like you wanted to win. It is time we got a winning mentality as only with one, can you got an win games.
Wouldn't agree but wouldn't disagree with you Davros. Apart from a few freak results(i.e Greece, Denmark in 92, Czech's in the 70s) it's always going to be very hard for the smaller nations(and in terms of population and domestic football we are one of the smallest). That said those freak results will always make me dream and believe we can do it. I've never watched an Ireland game without believing we can win. If i did i wouldn't bother.
As regards England, Portugal, etc. For all their belief they have accomplished nothing. I am happy for Ireland to punch above their weight as always and go in as an under dog and hope that we can pull off a shock. Let's qualify first, then try get out of our group and then start dreaming.
Carnstein opened up a thread with the topic:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
"What is an acceptable result in the World Cup?"
I always think we have a chance of winning any competition we enter and I have put money (not much mind you) on us in every world cup. Of course we should be aiming to win any competition with the players we now have, but, 3 or 4 points in the group stages (and a good performance) is acceptable to me.
With that attitude, we'll never win anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Reality pill - we should have beaten 10 man Spain in the last WC. From there, winning the WC would have been possible. Difficult, but not impossible. If we go into every championship thinking we're only there to make up the numbers, then.....fail to prepare, prepare to fail?
The beauty of football is that the team with the star players doesn't always win. Greece, Denmark, Wimbeldon in the FA cup....why not us?
If you were giving me odds of 80-1 which the bookies are, I'd have a punt.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
I'm gonna throw a tenner on us to win the 2006 WC, long shot it may be but I think in reality our odds are better than that, so it's worth a few quid.