Attendances - separate (commentary) thread

Starting a new thread cos I didn't want to send Stu's stats thread off on a tangent.

PREMIER DIVISION (Last season in brackets)
Bohs 2829 (2625)
Cork 4500 (4147)
Derry 1936 (2265) (missing Drogheda)
Drogheda 1356 (2038) (missing Bohs, Dublin City, Rovers and Waterford)
Dublin City 544 (missing Shels)
Longford 1333 (1586) (missing Waterford)
Pat's 1925 (2971)
Rovers 1120 (2038) (missing Drogheda and Waterford)
Shels 2186 (2573)
Waterford 2650 (2520) (missing Dublin City)

Assuming the CHF match would've dragged Waterford's average down, that leaves only Bohs and Cork up on last year - everyone else is down, by anything ranging from nearly 50% (Rovers) to 33% (us and Drogs) to just a wee bit (everyone else).

What do people reckon is the cause? Personally, I think it's a combination of the whole nonsense of playing teams four times a season and the ludicrous ticket-price increases pushed through by most clubs since last season. We can't blame competing attractions, as the Premiership is finished and the bogball / stickball is on Sundays.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub

We can't blame competing attractions, as the Premiership is finished and the bogball / stickball is on Sundays.

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And Saturday nights - hence our switch to Fridays. Wasn't down on Friday to see whether it made a difference.

In our case I blame the GAA mentality - most important competitions are knock out's, the league is just a distraction.

I was genuinely shocked at how low the attendance was at Richmond on Tuesday (for both teams), considering it's normally an alright game.

10 team league certainly doesn't help, and a return to 12 is welcome. If we could push that up towards 16 or 18 in the future playing just a home and away series it would be ideal (once there was still a first, for promotion/relegation).

Its also down to the lack of a clear and strategic plan for the future of the game with everything being done for short term solutions.

There is no proper business or marketing plan for the future of el soccer and the perfect solution - the Uefa Licencing system has been undermined by stroke politics in the FAI.Until we have an administration that is totally seperate from influence by the clubs or the internal power struggle within the FAI we will not attract new investors,Fans and Government Grants.

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Originally Posted by gufct

Its also down to the lack of a clear and strategic plan for the future of the game with everything being done for short term solutions.

There is no proper business or marketing plan for the future of el soccer and the perfect solution - the Uefa Licencing system has been undermined by stroke politics in the FAI.Until we have an administration that is totally seperate from influence by the clubs or the internal power struggle within the FAI we will not attract new investors,Fans and Government Grants.

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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Would say Dublin clubs definitely suffering from the 10 team league. Derry have low max capacity now so probably missing out on a few big gates. Drogs have to be suffering from increase in ticket price given they having a good season.

Would it be reasonable to assume attendances wopuld be higher during the summer months when no end of season foreign football & tv football distractions?

Pete, I'd put our lower attendences down to the god awful to watch football we've being playing. Ticket prices have also increased a bit. Used to be a fiver to get into the Lone Moor Road end (terrace), but since most of that has been closed it's £8 to get into the New Stand. Probably turned away a few people. Our change from Thursday to Saturday nights may have affected attendence, but should have a positive influence during the summer.

The price increase may be ruling out the casual fan who might just stroll down to a game to fill a hour or so but on a whole I think the league just isn’t offering the public what it wants or what it might accept, the general feeling is that the EL is Michael mouse and its hard to argue with a the **** that goes on, political wrangles, poxy grounds, high prices (for what your getting), poxy ten team league, poxy first division, riots (that get overblown), plus im not sure want the general feeling is but I think the standard of football has fallen drastically this season (bar shels errrrrr) from seeing all the teams in action, the whole summer league thing hasn’t worked or any gain has been ruled out by the extortionate price hikes

Less media coverage and shels brilliant start. I actually think attendances will improve now because shels are not looking as strong as they were and hopefully a good result or two in europe might make a difference. Also dublin City have crap attendances at their home games but when they play away the same effect happens.

I fear that attendances will fall next season because of the increase of the premier division and the stupid system of playing against teams three times.

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Originally Posted by Macy

10 team league certainly doesn't help, and a return to 12 is welcome. If we could push that up towards 16 or 18 in the future playing just a home and away series it would be ideal (once there was still a first, for promotion/relegation).

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I agree definitely. 10 team league takes the sting out of the top games. Too much of a good thing gets boring after a while. And 12 team league playing each other 3 times is just stupid.

I don't think increasing the premier to a 22 team league would work because there would be too many games in a season. Lets say its increased to 18. There would be 4 clubs left out, which I'm sure they wouldn't be happy about. You could however set up a regionalised 1st division. With 3 regions, Leinster, Munster and Connacht/Ulster. And invite Senior teams from these regions to play in leagues with the 4 clubs left out. The winners of these leagues would go into a play off for promotion to the premier. Kind of like a Ryman/Dr Martins situation where teams get promoted to the conference in England.

Obviousley there is the possibility of a really small team winning the thing and finding the don't have the funds to compete in the premier division. In which case the FAI would have minimum requirements for a club to compete in the premier, like an A license say, and they would be refused entry until they got an A license.

Its just an idea, what do people think????

sounds good in theory but it would never fly, one bad season in the premier and your playing the likes of Wayside Celtic and Moyle Park every week cant see it happening it would be better to expand D1 and bring the likes of Thurles Town and Tralee Dinamos in.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

I don't think increasing the premier to a 22 team league would work because there would be too many games in a season. Lets say its increased to 18. There would be 4 clubs left out, which I'm sure they wouldn't be happy about.

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I did say there'd have to be a first!

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

With 3 regions, Leinster, Munster and Connacht/Ulster. And invite Senior teams from these regions to play in leagues with the 4 clubs left out. The winners of these leagues would go into a play off for promotion to the premier. Kind of like a Ryman/Dr Martins situation where teams get promoted to the conference in England.

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Definately the way to go - clubs don't want to step up to the eL as things stand. Ideal would be an All Ireland League though.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

Obviousley there is the possibility of a really small team winning the thing and finding the don't have the funds to compete in the premier division. In which case the FAI would have minimum requirements for a club to compete in the premier, like an A license say, and they would be refused entry until they got an A license.

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That should be the case from next season anyway, however nothing to stop small clubs getting up (as is the case now infairness - Monaghan a few years ago).

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Originally Posted by THESAINT2002

sounds good in theory but it would never fly, one bad season in the premier and your playing the likes of Wayside Celtic and Moyle Park every week cant see it happening it would be better to expand D1 and bring the likes of Thurles Town and Tralee Dinamos in.

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I'd be all for the first division being expanded. But would these teams actually want to come into it?? When one of these teams go national, can they afford all the travelling expenses etc. Thats why I suggested a regionalised solution. But I would Ideally like an expanded first division. Maybe universities could take part and take a leaf out of UCDs book, and have sports courses to accomodate the players that play for them. I know UCC could afford to take part in a national league.

Macy, I don't think an all Ireland league would work. Too much politics, and probably an increase in crowd violance. I think UEFA said that the only way they could sanction an all Ireland league is if the Northern Ireland national team joined up with the Republic as well. Can't see it happening, as I said, too much politics.

This is all in my grand plan :)

One of the main domestic measures I came up with was an expanded, regionalised First Division (based on the assumption that the twelve-team premier would be retained.)

It works like this:

Division One North (eight teams, including two new entrants)

Division One South (seven teams to be on the conservative side, including three new entrants. Or eight and four, if possible.)

After three rounds of fixtures in each division, the regional champions are promoted. Both runners-up qualify for the end-of-season play-offs. Then, all fifteen teams enter a final National Phase, with the slate wiped clean. After one round of matches (14 games), the first-placed team wins a play-off spot. (IOW, play-offs involve 10th side in Premier Division, two regional First Division runners-up and National Phase champions.)

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

This is all in my grand plan :)

One of the main domestic measures I came up with was an expanded, regionalised First Division (based on the assumption that the twelve-team premier would be retained.)

It works like this:

Division One North (eight teams, including two new entrants)

Division One South (seven teams to be on the conservative side, including three new entrants. Or eight and four, if possible.)

After three rounds of fixtures in each division, the regional champions are promoted. Both runners-up qualify for the end-of-season play-offs. Then, all fifteen teams enter a final National Phase, with the slate wiped clean. After one round of matches (14 games), the first-placed team wins a play-off spot. (IOW, play-offs involve 10th side in Premier Division, two regional First Division runners-up and National Phase champions.)

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I'm not sure I get it Sheridan, if the regional champs are already promoted then why would they compete in a national phase with nothing to play for?? Having already been promoted.

I really don't like the idea of playing 3 times. Against some teams you have 2 home games and 1 away. Thats why I was hoping for a 16 or 18 team premier division.

Someone posted up on JW's board a regional format for the entire league. Play teams in the same division home and away, and one series against teams in the other division (home and away rotated each season). Top 4 (if I remember correctly) play off home and away, with a kind of Grand Final to decide the Championship.

2 Leagues of 12 (so 2 additions). 33 Game "Regular" season, then the play off's. You could even have Trophy and Shield play off's to keep all teams interested into the play offs. 1-4 in each division into the Championship Playoffs, 5-8 in the Trophy Playoffs, 9-12 in the Shield Play Offs.

Personally, I prefer a straight league but it would certainly improve the coverage and keep the interest from a fans point of view. Play all the big teams, and plenty of derbies, good chance of winning something (there'd still be the cup as well).

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

I'm not sure I get it Sheridan, if the regional champs are already promoted then why would they compete in a national phase with nothing to play for?? Having already been promoted

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That's a point, but I believe a similar system operates in the Netherlands (although it's far more convoluted and many teams have nothing to play for in the final half of the season. Unless it's been changed in the past four years.)

Still, on reflection it doesn't really work. Okay, try this; regional champions qualify for a play-off, National Phase winners promoted automatically (probably have to increase the number of games in this phase, if we're offering an automatic spot) and National Phase runners-up make the play-offs. At the end of the season, the two regional champions play-off for an automatic spot, and the regional runners-up for a play-off spot.

Straightforward regionalisation might make more sense, but I don't like the idea of teams in either region not playing one another (plus, I want to have a repechage tournament so the likes of Kilkenny and Monaghan have something to aim for in the final quarter. I often wonder what keeps those clubs going.)

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

I want to have a repechage tournament so the likes of Kilkenny and Monaghan have something to aim for in the final quarter. I often wonder what keeps those clubs going.)

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I know, it boggles the mind. Maybe a divisional cup might keep them going, where only first division clubs take part, or if you were to regionalise it, a cup for just that region might keep them with something to aim for.

Right now all they have to aim for is to not finish bottom.

All in all, I would prefer an expanded premier division, and hence the first division expanded to make up the numbers. Anyone know any non-league senior teams that would go into a new first division??

The only alternative as a 22 team premier. But isn't that too many games??

Just to comment on the original point about attendance drops: Rovers is probably mostly down to playing at 7:00, Pats and Derry are most likely suffering from their poor league position, Drogheda's price hike is probably their problem. God only knows why $hels' are down. :confused:

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Pete, I'd put our lower attendences down to the god awful to watch football we've being playing.

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Thought ye been just as bad since cup final win?

Personally i prefer the summer season change & as so would want to swop May, June & July for December, January & February.

The one plus i'll say for the 10 team Premier is that unlikley to have seen Waterford & Drogs do so well in the 12 team comfort zone. I think its debatable if the standard has lowered as probably just cos games are tighter? Can't argue that average standard has improved a lot.

I know i'm biased but attendances at the cross continue to impress as unusual toi get less than 3k over last 3 years which is a good core support. Pats have record of good crowds but obviously in a bad phase whereas Bohs continue to get much poorer crowds than i'd expect.

Playing teams 3 times in 12 team league is idiotic & only real solution is break division in half after 2 rounds.

I love this "change the format" argument, regional divisions, season breaks, top six splits, winter football, play each other once , play each other twice, play each other 3 times......what difference does it make ????- people are not going to el football full stop - the people that stay away from say pats longford on a sunny evening in south dublin dont give a flying fck whether these teams play each other once twice or fifty times - THEY DONT WANT TO GO TO ANY OF THESE GAMES!

the shambles of tv coverage situation means that theres no momentum - nothing is sustained on a consistent and professional basis - its just hit and miss haphazard make do rubbish

only the die hards now know when games are on, and even they have frequent difficulties - there is no hope to attract the floating punter in the current environment

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Originally Posted by wws

I love this "change the format" argument, regional divisions, season breaks, top six splits, winter football, play each other once , play each other twice, play each other 3 times......what difference does it make ????- people are not going to el football full stop - the people that stay away from say pats longford on a sunny evening in south dublin dont give a flying fck whether these teams play each other once twice or fifty times - THEY DONT WANT TO GO TO ANY OF THESE GAMES!

the shambles of tv coverage situation means that theres no momentum - nothing is sustained on a consistent and professional basis - its just hit and miss haphazard make do rubbish

only the die hards now know when games are on, and even they have frequent difficulties - there is no hope to attract the floating punter in the current environment

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Do you have a solution to these problems ..... or how would you tackle them at least ??

ok first things first.....

1) acknowledge reality of the situation - the clubs are not attracting punters in reasonable numbers on a consistent basis - honourable mentions to CCFC excepted.

2) tinkering with formats is unlikely to attract new fans to the league - they arent interested in the LEAGUE itself so why would tinkering with the format of something they have no interest in win them over?

3) taking 1 and 2 into account - you have to go all out on a coherent, sustained and professional tv rights package - making the league as covered as possible, as in the face as possible and as sexy as possible - the only way to do this that the FAI have open to them is to link it to the only sexy product they have - the international team - brodcasters want this, they would kill for this - they might even be arsed to climb a tv gantry and cover league of ireland game professionally for once if you told them you had to balls to lock them out of lansdowne road.



tv coverage alone wont lead to any quick fix solution but it will put the league back on a public footing - something it does not enjoy at the moment due to hap hazard inconsistent coverage

if it has a public profile - than at least you can than START to do the hard sell of getting punters back into grounds with serious marketing efforts
- I suspect even the most succesful efforts would only bring relatively small numbers back - but given the low base we have to start somewhere

work on a proper 5/10 year business plan with the UEFA Licencing standards strictly enforced in all 5 criteria no fudges if teams do not reach the A Standard no premier football.

Once this is in place with an independent administration and a fully funded marketing budget i feel you will open the doors for new investors.The main reason people are turning their backs on el football is the total sham it is -Games played on 3 different nights of the week - Paul Marney Affair - Charlie Affair - Alan Cawley Farce - Shels seeking compo for everything - UEFA Licence Fiasco - no TV Coverage etc. etc. etc...

Its hard work trying to entice the ordinary el fan back to watch games never mind the sceptics and unless clubs give up the me fein attidude and sit down together to plan for our future (not next year) we might as well give up now.

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Originally Posted by wws

I love this "change the format" argument, regional divisions, season breaks, top six splits, winter football, play each other once , play each other twice, play each other 3 times......what difference does it make ????- people are not going to el football full stop - the people that stay away from say pats longford on a sunny evening in south dublin dont give a flying fck whether these teams play each other once twice or fifty times - THEY DONT WANT TO GO TO ANY OF THESE GAMES!

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We know this. Everyone knows this. That's why some of us are trying to find a way forward.

The point about regionalising the First Division is very simple; it cuts down on travel costs, which would be even more important if new teams were admitted.

We are criticise the FAI but IMO the FAI should be allowed to run the eL 100%. The clubs have shown they incapable of running the league themselves & theres a waste of resources have numerous functions duplicated from FAI & eL (PR. media, Marketing etc...). I agree that the formats of the league are a lesser issue than fact only dire hards going to the games - floating supporter for big games seems to have died off in Dublin.

Medium/Long term strategy is whats required as eL couldn't even stick with the 3 year 10 team Premier trial as just dumped it after 1 short 7 1 proper season.

:rolleyes:

About the only thing to improve in most recent years is colour of fans at games.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

Just to comment on the original point about attendance drops: Rovers is probably mostly down to playing at 7:00, Pats and Derry are most likely suffering from their poor league position, Drogheda's price hike is probably their problem. God only knows why $hels' are down. :confused:

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i think the figure given for drogheda " Drogheda 1356 (2038) (missing Bohs, Dublin City, Rovers and Waterford) "
is misleading on two counts.

firstly - that figure only includes three matches - pats, derry & longford.

pats was the first match with the new ticket prices and it wasn't a bad crowd. the derry game was a tuesday game clashing with arsenal-chelsea in the CL, and the drogs had three defeats out of three so far (plus a price rise!). the only other game included was longford which wasn't a bad crowd either. but because there is only three matches used for the avg., the derry game is bringing everything down.

the games that were missing - bohs, dub city, rovers & waterford are all since the club went on a winning run (alas now ended with the bohs match)

also the no. given for last year - 2038. when the price rise was announced and the total gate receipts for last year compared with what the club wanted, i done workings for the dusc to get a more realistic price structure for the club. based on what the club treasurer told me about gate receipts versus attendances and what the board were now saying our total gates were in 2003, i worked out ( very roughly) that our average gate was about 1,662 last season - whcih i reckon we would be pretty close to at the moment!

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Originally Posted by ColinR

the games that were missing - bohs, dub city, rovers & waterford are all since the club went on a winning run (alas now ended with the bohs match)

also the no. given for last year - 2038. when the price rise was announced and the total gate receipts for last year compared with what the club wanted, i done workings for the dusc to get a more realistic price structure for the club. based on what the club treasurer told me about gate receipts versus attendances and what the board were now saying our total gates were in 2003, i worked out ( very roughly) that our average gate was about 1,662 last season - whcih i reckon we would be pretty close to at the moment!

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They're only missing because no Dwog provided the info.

On last seasons figures, is the 1662 taking into account juniors, OAPs, Students etc? Unless you have the breakdown of ticket categories sold, a income divided by ticket price won't work out anymore accurate than an educated guess.

English football reaches new hype high or should that be low

So division 3 is fact "league" 1 now.

:rolleyes:

Suppose shows its not just irish football obcessed with style over quality.

Cheers for that, Dr Nightdub! had been meaning to put the question about Pat's attendances in particular, but they are fairly depressing overall to be honest.

The points on the Drogs attendances - i.e. that I only have figures for three games - is valid, so if anyone can update these on a regular basis, it'd be appreciated! I know the crowd v. Bohs was fairly big alright.

Was reading the When Saturday Comes magazine (British football magazine mainly, but with some very interesting features, and written largely through contributions from English fanzine writers, so it makes a change from the tabloid nonsense) and there's an article this month on English attendances. The Premiership is down on last season, English Division Three is up 21% (with Hull v. Huddersfield pulling in 23,000, more than many Premiership games) and an Dr Marten's Eastern match (level seven) pulling in 1600. There are two main reasons why lower league football is becoming more popular, according to the article - better football and a bigger community presence. Obviously the fact that the Brits have some cultural history of supporting their local teams no matter what division helps, but the community thing is interesting. What are Irish clubs doing to interact with their communities and "spread the good news", so to speak? I know UCD run soccer camps for youngsters and do free coaching in underprivileged areas, which is working somewhat.

Read on the Harps board (I think) that some Harps fans were having trouble getting to home games since they moved from Saturdays to Fridays as they're working in Dublin and can't get back in time. Might affect some of the country teams?

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Originally Posted by pete

English football reaches new hype high or should that be low

So division 3 is fact "league" 1 now.

:rolleyes:

Suppose shows it's not just irish football obsessed with style over quality.

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Wouldn't be surprised to see that take a lot of flak, if not get dropped eventually. Read it being ridiculed in WCS magazine (see above post) a while back. Most non-Premiership fans have some sense and will resent their league being pointlessly hyped up like that, I'd say, especially when the Divisions One to Three are progressing grand as it is (ITV Digital aside).

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

I agree definitely. 10 team league takes the sting out of the top games. Too much of a good thing gets boring after a while. And 12 team league playing each other 3 times is just stupid.

I don't think increasing the premier to a 22 team league would work because there would be too many games in a season. Lets say its increased to 18. There would be 4 clubs left out, which I'm sure they wouldn't be happy about. You could however set up a regionalised 1st division. With 3 regions, Leinster, Munster and Connacht/Ulster. And invite Senior teams from these regions to play in leagues with the 4 clubs left out. The winners of these leagues would go into a play off for promotion to the premier. Kind of like a Ryman/Dr Martins situation where teams get promoted to the conference in England.

Obviousley there is the possibility of a really small team winning the thing and finding the don't have the funds to compete in the premier division. In which case the FAI would have minimum requirements for a club to compete in the premier, like an A license say, and they would be refused entry until they got an A license.

Its just an idea, what do people think????

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Definately the right direction, I'd like to see a 16 team Prem and a 12 team Div 1 - the additional 6 teams for Div1 would be the cream of non league teams and the bottom team of Div 1 would each yaer have a playoff with the 3 best non league teams.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

English Division Three is up 21% (with Hull v. Huddersfield pulling in 23,000, more than many Premiership games) and an Dr Marten's Eastern match (level seven) pulling in 1600

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I'm sure Hulls crowds a lot to do with apparently being the UKs 7th largest city & having a stunning new stadium.

I'ld say the Premierships attendance figures will fall next year too. The clubs going down are bigger than the clubs coming up.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

God only knows why $hels' are down. :confused:

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It seems to be down to the ticket price increase. It's lead to people having to skip the odd match because they can't afford, or aren't willing to spend the extra money to goto every match. Even away support in Tolka is massively down this season, the Bohs support was as bad, numbers wise, as it has been in a long time.

i think some1 has too much time on their hands! :D

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Originally Posted by Stevo Da Gull

Definately the right direction, I'd like to see a 16 team Prem and a 12 team Div 1 - the additional 6 teams for Div1 would be the cream of non league teams and the bottom team of Div 1 would each yaer have a playoff with the 3 best non league teams.

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Yeah, I like that idea too.

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Originally Posted by pete

I'm sure Hull's crowds a lot to do with apparently being the UK's 7th largest city & having a stunning new stadium.

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Yeah, possibly, though the attendance for Divisions One, Two and Three are up 7% or so, which is still impressive.

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Originally Posted by Slash/Ed

It seems to be down to the ticket price increase. It's lead to people having to skip the odd match because they can't afford, or aren't willing to spend the extra money to goto every match.

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Probably true, as with other teams, though when you consider E15 would only get you three pints (which they'd be more than willing to buy instead), it's amazing how people can whinge at paying the money for a game of football!

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Originally Posted by Macy

They're only missing because no Dwog provided the info.

On last seasons figures, is the 1662 taking into account juniors, OAPs, Students etc? Unless you have the breakdown of ticket categories sold, a income divided by ticket price won't work out anymore accurate than an educated guess.

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will try to get figures for the other games.

had a long talk with the tresurer at the end of last season about attendances, fundraisers etc., he told me that it was fairly consistent that the club got about €7 per head at the games - this was when it was €12 in for adults. played around with nos for a while between different ticket categories etc - at most the only realistic swing in the 1662 figure would be about 75 either way, based on more adults and less kids etc.

but this all depends on the figure given by the club to jusify the price rise being correct ;)

drogs vs bohs from last monday 2509 according to a bit on the drogs forum