The Dole/Public Works

Like many other people in Ireland, I'm out of work, and it's driving me mad.

I've recently volunteered to do some charity work to occupy my time, but I was thinking, perhaps the government should be doing more public works projects, or charity-style work, and encouraging dole-seekers to work on them for an extra few quid a week.

I don't support the idea of using dole seekers as slave labour, but volunteer work is something that benefits everyone involved, and is something the government should be facilitating, and encouraging.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Like many other people in Ireland, I'm out of work, and it's driving me mad.

I've recently volunteered to do some charity work to occupy my time, but I was thinking, perhaps the government should be doing more public works projects, or charity-style work, and encouraging dole-seekers to work on them for an extra few quid a week.

I don't support the idea of using dole seekers as slave labour, but volunteer work is something that benefits everyone involved, and is something the government should be facilitating, and encouraging.

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I just don't trust any group that would be in charge of it's administration. I mean look at the blackhole that were CEPs and they had budgets.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

I just don't trust any group that would be in charge of it's administration. I mean look at the blackhole that were CEPs and they had budgets.

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Good point. Even if the Dole Office gave out information about volunteering with NGOs like Barnardos and St. Vincent de Paul when you sign on. I got nothing, no advice on finding work, no warnings about the danger of depression, nothing.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Good point. Even if the Dole Office gave out information about volunteering with NGOs like Barnardos and St. Vincent de Paul when you sign on. I got nothing, no advice on finding work, no warnings about the danger of depression, nothing.

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Peadar I think that 1 day in my place would show you just how really bad it is out there. I spend most of it counselling people and I'm not even a counsellor!

Today I had to hand out a phone number to a woman who had no money to call the number I gave her! I mean that's f**cked up. I've referred cases where I fear for peoples' mental state and well-being to my boss and nothing happens.
There is no support out there for anyone. And any idea that some sort of coordination between the relevant sectors of the public service is laughable. Within my office one end of the office knows nothing about what the other end does.

Sorry to turn this into some public sector cribbing but essentially this is where it'll end up.

I take it you haven't had the joy of heading to your CWO or FÁS yet?

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Peadar I think that 1 day in my place would show you just how really bad it is out there. I spend most of it counselling people and I'm not even a counsellor!

Today I had to hand out a phone number to a woman who had no money to call the number I gave her! I mean that's f**cked up. I've referred cases where I fear for peoples' mental state and well-being to my boss and nothing happens.
There is no support out there for anyone. And any idea that some sort of coordination between the relevant sectors of the public service is laughable. Within my office one end of the office knows nothing about what the other end does.

Sorry to turn this into some public sector cribbing but essentially this is where it'll end up.

I take it you haven't had the joy of heading to your CWO or FÁS yet?

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I'm registered with FÁS, but I had to google CWO. As I said, no info given out. I'm actually one of the lucky ones, as in my parents were well enough off to let me move back home, at least for the meantime. My main problem is just getting really down about facing another day with nothing to do except search for jobs that simply aren't out there.

Even something as simple as handing out a pack with information on how to deal with unemployment would be a big step forwards. Advice on how to go about getting a job, places to look, websites to visit, retraining information, warnings about the risk to your mental health, and the various people who could help you with it. And the suggestion to volunteer with a charitable organisation while you're looking for work, for your own sanity, your CV, and the good of your community. It couldn't cost that much to make up, and would be far better for the country than a tiny fraction of the bank bailouts.

There was a move by Fine Gael (when in opposition) or at least by the more left leaning side of the party (ie not the cabinet now) to adopt a programme that was used in a number of countries. Now I only heard the background of it and there was a proposal paper done up for a local meeting in Tallaght (I'm not a member by the way) which involved a range of projects that can only be called civil service. This included public/civil works with pay for all those willing to do it and the whole thing was very progressive. It was tailored to the Irish system to save a whack on public spending and it could have done a lot of good, however I don't know where it got to.

Anyway, the point (there is one) that I was going to make is something that the paper proposed. Peadar, I was in the same situation as yourself 10 years ago. I'd come home to work, begun to settle in and really felt at home. I was working all the time, making good money and my plan was to buy a small house and fully settle. Then the foot and mouth outbreak hit and I didn't even have the pleasure (for want of a better word) of standing in Oriel watching a club I'd followed since birth struggle in the 1st. My work was completely wiped out, I had nothing. When the rest of the country moved on the border region struggled and I found myself sinking. The only thing that saved me was that I'd been volunteering with a local sports club coaching and from this picked up work that didn't involve me slopping through fields or being sports related. I don't even want to think how much lower I could have felt but for this.

All I can suggest is to get involved actively with a sports club (if you're not already), assist a coach, coach a kids team, take a coaching cert, use what you've learned from watching and following to good effect and be positive. Forget the usual charity crowds, I'm with Bonnieshels on this that they might not always be the best option. It may sound dumb, but getting involved with your local sports club (doesn't matter if it's football, GAA, rugby) will turn things around for you. The pure energy alone will lift you. I know that it did for me and you never know what else can happen from it. And remember, as a coach you're no worse than anyone else, just treat the kids like your own (not battering them and locking hem in cupboards, I'll be getting lots of payback for that) and have fun.

One of the many things that is not being taken care of in Ireland is mental health. Never was, never will, because it's not an issue. Depressed people don't leave the house to vote, but they'll drink, smoke cigarettes and watch tv, so they're the perfect populace.

If there's work or jobs to be done, people should be properly employed to do them. Even some revamped CE style scheme, with much better controls and less political interference.

To revert to type, the problem is that Social Welfare, FAS and other services are simply trying to cope at the moment. They've a service that has actually had it's numbers cut since full employment, despite people moving into social welfare and employments services in FAS (Croke Park working). There is massive scope for reform - both financial and service was one of the reasons why I didn't get the whole "Joan Burton was screwed line" for getting social protection.

I know several civil servants who were seconded into the Dept of Social Protection for the past couple of years but all have returned to their 'home' department as their own numbers have dropped due to recruitment freeze. So there's less people working there than even 3/4 months ago.

They've been steadily dropping numbers of staff in frontline areas like CWO's and such. I understand where they are looking to make cuts, that's fair enough, though the cuts have been in vital areas (including teaching assistants) and I don't feel that there will be any change soon. Anyone remember where they were recruiting 100 new CWO's? I know it was highlighted, before dying a death, on the radio.

Peadar you could try volunteering with the conservation volunteers www.cvi.ie (or in the north with cvni). They run a lot of good conservation projects which get you out digging, planting trees, chopping down rhododendrons etc. all good stuff which helps you feel good about yourself and keeps your head right.
In the north they run a project called green gyms which is aimed at health related problems but they do stuff throughout the country north and south. They have all sorts of volunteer work available and you can get horticultural and biodiversity qualifications through them and learn how to run community schemes and the like which would stand you in good stead when going for jobs when they do come up. It might not be everone's cup of tea but it'll do you a lot more good than sitting in front of a computer screen all day.

Thanks for all the advice lads! (Even though this was started as a discussion topic, and not a cry for help, it's all appreciated!)

The CVI is the sort of stuff I'd love to be doing. One of the things that made me write this post was thinking about the Dublin Mountains Way (http://www.dublinmountains.ie/dublin...mountains_way/). I'm of the opinion that Ireland isn't being promoted enough as a world-class walking destination, and that making more walking routes like this, and promoting them in more densely-populated places, like the UK, Germany, and the Netherlands, would make a valuable addition to our GDP.

I thin it'd be a great idea if there was a mechanism in place to allow people to volunteer when out of work. Just an info pack of local voluntary organisations would be cool, the likes of Tidy Towns, sports clubs etc.

Ideally it would be formally organised but this would stray into the whole cheap labour debate. I think that if there's a job to do people should be paid for it, yet at the same time if people want to work for free they should be facilitated. There must be a workable balance in there somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Anyway, the point (there is one) that I was going to make is something that the paper proposed. Peadar, I was in the same situation as yourself 10 years ago. I'd come home to work, begun to settle in and really felt at home. I was working all the time, making good money and my plan was to buy a small house and fully settle. Then the foot and mouth outbreak hit and I didn't even have the pleasure (for want of a better word) of standing in Oriel watching a club I'd followed since birth struggle in the 1st. My work was completely wiped out, I had nothing.

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Sorry for veering off-course a bit, but why was there a "plan" to buy a house?

I do think that because so many wanted to buy houses in the boom, it contributed to the problems we now have. A builder will never refuse a brick, and the government didn't shout stop on the housing market soon enough, if at all. It was a pyramid scheme, and when it collapsed, the construction industry went through the floor, the banks stopped functioning, companies went bust, and unemployment climbed rapidly.

Unlike many Irish people, I have no great desire to "own" a house, and never tried (even if I could) to buy one when the market was booming. There are more important things in life, than the prospect of owning property. Like most people in Europe, renting is the way to go. You're still getting a roof over your head, a bed to kip in, and food on the table, that's all in essence, you need. The rest is nice, but not essential.

Back on-topic, the whole structure of the dole, is that you do nothing. If you do work, even in a voluntary capacity, you have to answer awkward questions, and risk your payments cut. If you work 4 days a week, you lose them completely. So, most people settle for the status quo.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

They've been steadily dropping numbers of staff in frontline areas like CWO's and such. I understand where they are looking to make cuts, that's fair enough, though the cuts have been in vital areas (including teaching assistants) and I don't feel that there will be any change soon. Anyone remember where they were recruiting 100 new CWO's? I know it was highlighted, before dying a death, on the radio.

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They've been dropping numbers in the public sector, full stop. However, there have been transfers to the front line services. Problem is that it's just maintaining the current levels, due to the turnover of staff.

I'd agree with peadar about the walking potential, and going off topic - England, Scotland and Wales are light years ahead of us in promoting walking holidays. Too much is left to individual companies organising tours, when we should be tapping in to the market that is weekenders, like some of my manc mates do in the Lakes or Wales. Now I don't know enough to know if thats partly the fault of the companies that prefer the closed shop, but it should change. There's also a major issue in this state with the price, quality and availability of camp sites. Also, a lot of B&B's have closed. But you there's no reason people from the UK in particular shouldn't come over for a long weekend's walking in the Wicklow Mountains - you can get a bus to the Wicklow Way (or very close) from St Stephen's Green twice a day, everyday!

I don't think it's as extreme as mypost suggests (obviously), but you would want to check that you're meeting the "actively seeking work" criteria. I doubt you'd be able to do 5 full days a week (a couple days a week should be ok, judging by contacts I've had, but you should check with whoever is making the judgement for you).

Was talking to someone about this last night. hewas advised against volunteering as he was supposed to be 'available for work'. I should point out that it was a citizen advice type person who told him this rather than anyone directly involved

I think a lot has to do with who you see at the hatch, or the citizen’s info office. Being available for work is one interpretation of being unemployed, but volunteering doesn’t reduce availability - it’s non-contractual, doesn’t have a period of notice to be served, can be done by somebody in employment anyway etc etc. Actively seeking work is a better interpretation: it’d be daft to stop somebody volunteering if they do it to keep their skills sharp, or learn new skills, once you don’t overdo it. I’ve used that argument a couple of times in the past and got the all clear at the dole office, but not before the person at the hatch checked with a supervisor. It's worth pushing it gently sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

I think a lot has to do with who you see at the hatch, or the citizen’s info office

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That was kinda my point. I was showing that as long as there are 'mixed signals' coming from different bodies, there's always going to be problems. I don't see any harm in the Dept of Social Protection doing up a little notice saying that volunteer work won't effect someone's benefits, as long as they're looking for wrok etc.

I'd agree, it's more the seeking work rather than available to work that is the issue. I'd only go on what Social Welfare say, so that'd be where I'd persue it. I know there are part time courses that are available that mean that social welfare recipients meet the requirements for seeking work, but be prepared to only be able to do a couple of days a week - although coming into the light evenings, I doubt they'd care about outside office hours anyway, if that was an option.

Thankfully it's been a while since I was down the brew so I'm not too sure what kind of questions people are being asked but if you're doing voluntary work and not being paid for it then it isn't really "work" as such and nobody's business but your own. I do a bit of volunteering myself but it's a hobby to me something I like doing in my spare time, is some pimply clerk going to stop someone's dole for engaging in a hobby? If in doubt don't let on, but you'd hardly be penalised for going fishing or learning to play the fiddle (no pun intended). Madness to think it would be seen any other way.

I dunno, welfare "fraud" is bound to become more of an issue - look at the focus in the media on completely legitimate claims/ payments.

There's a letter in today's Irish Times from the press office of the D/SP confirming that volunteering is not only allowed, but staff have been reminded to inform people about it.

"The Voluntary Work Option permits jobseekers who engage in voluntary work within the State to engage in such work without it affecting their entitlements. The aims of the Voluntary Work Option are: to encourage voluntary organisations to involve jobseekers to the greatest extent possible in their existing activities by creating new opportunities for voluntary work; and to inform jobseekers of their freedom to involve themselves in voluntary work and to encourage them to do so."

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/