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According to the Fingal Indo yesterday a Fingal County Council Staff member has been suspended pending an investigation into why Sporting Fingal collapsed. The article goes on to say that the players are taking action to have their contracts honoured by the council.
Unfortunately not able toput a link up as I'm not a registered member on the Fingal Indo Website. Interesting article though.
This was going to happen sooner or later, the cowards at the top of the council are looking for a scapegoat and I think we know who they found. I hope the players take the council for what they're owed, serves them right for playing games with peoples careers.
edit: Just to clarify, the heads of the council in the short time before everything went bang were extolling the virtues of the club and using it to form links (check out the Chambers publication at the end of 2010) and it's still a mystery as to what went on to cause them to suddenly turn tail.
Sounds interesting alright.
Was it a staff member or a council member (ie a politician)?
I think it's a staff member. One who was also with the club. A council member couldn't have been hit as it was the unelected heads of the council who pulled the plug, so the elected ones got off scot free.
Don't want a scapegoat. Just want the club back. Still, if the people really responsible are to be exposed that's good. I mean who in God's name signed Ken Oman and hired a new Commercial manager a week or so before it all ground to a halt??????? It beggars belief that someone in a position to make pivotal financial decisions such as those was unaware of the approaching edge of the cliff. It is insane beyond words. Can anything be learned from Fingal County Council's enquiries?
Nothing that is not already in the Sporting Fingal thread from a few years ago!Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild
They were all council members in some capacity and one or two councillors with one now a TD .Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
An investigation?
Everyone involved in the league new they were just Dublin City mark 2.
No, there was far more at stake in the Fingal debacle
Not a bit of it. They were a very different type of animal and one that, until the week before they shut their doors, were given the green light by the council and thumbs up by the heads of administration. This effort at backside covering is very strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin
Im making the point in regaurds to hair brained football manager enthusiasts bankrolling unsustainable ventures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
It has been done before and ive no doubt it will be done again with those genius's who administer the game.
Everyone knows both clubs were unsustainable. The point though is that Seery was just a daydreamer wasting his personal cash. It's possible there was much more to the Sporting Fingal case - planning fiascos, corporation/politician/construction magnate back-scratching, or that kind of stuff. (That's not to say that's what did happen obviously, before the site gets sued for libel...)
True that.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think I'm right in saying that the person who was overseeing this little experiment retired recently from FCC
Not quite, the whole thing boiled down to the main person (who is being scapegoated) didn't default on the month's wages and from what was left from the kitty paid up. The council flipped the lid because they figured they'd just close down the company and walk away - however......football doesn't exist in the real world and contracted players are a bit different to some poor Joe and Josette working on a factory floor. So by panicking and going back on their word, the council left themselves open to a hammering, of course they need someone to blame, so they picked one. It's all a little sad as the club was not going to go bang, had gotten everything in order, but those who administrate did just that.
somebody has to answer for the farce if they stuck to their original plan the club had a bright future, a lot of people on here complain about too many clubs being from Dublin but until Fingal came along the north of the county had largely been untouched by LOI, instead they took the easy route and just spend spend spend its a shame because it had potential to make a difference to young footballers in north dublin.
D.24 Saint - no matter what comes out of this football is worse off for losing the club, it was, as you rightly state, in an area that hadn't had LOI football (apart from the odd tenant in Morton) and it was working, the amount of communty work going on was great and it just needed time. Everything was slotting into place but the Council panicked (I still blame election backside covering though some would disagree and say it was general ineptitude by the Council administration or worse that they bottled it). What's sad is that the people who were looking after the club just let it close without telling their side of the story. Then again, it's better to have bad news and misery and deflect attention away from those who pulled the plaug than have the truth out.
I agree - football is always worse off when a club is lost, but are you serious when you say "everything was slotting into place"? The spending on the player budget was always unsustainable - that was the problem from day one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
It wasnt a problem from day one as the money was there then ,and the wages wasnt much diffrent from Sligo,bohs, rovers etc.
This has been done to death. You know exactly what I mean - The money may have been there on day one, but the club budget could not be sustained without enormous benefactor support. Please do not the Bohs model as one to follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lep
Ezekial, The Lep is right, it wasn't a problem from day one, though when GG was forced to pull out it had to be corrected, it was, the budget was adjusted and even with the reduction in prize monies, it was going to work as the new plan and sponsorship/backing had come on stream (The Lep can support me on this). The club had moved away from a single benefactor support to a more sustainable business plan (cutting cloth etc) and everything from the person hired in to be the Commercial manager to the Dalymount move to the new shareholders, it was all going to work, albeit at a lower and sustainable cost. However the Council admin acted without forethought (I stick to backside covering pre-election) and this damaged it. The full truth will come out in time and we'll see what has been lost.
I am very dubious about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Whether the model was a sustainable one from the outset (day one) is very debatable - but I take your point that the GG cash was there at that time to support it initially.
Moving to a "more sustainable business plan" ? This supports my point above.
Based on the players who were contracted and "signings" such as Ken Oman on €50k+ and Gary O'Neill on 52 week contract (another 50k?) does not indicate "cutting the cloth". There must have been a huge ammount of money "waiting in the wings". Can you enlighten us?
Obviously I am unable to go into too much depth, however the basics were this. What was going to come in was going to match what was going out. There was one sponsor (a London-based Financial company) who stepped back, however the replacement was ready and waiting and stepped in. The transfer of the old company shares out of GG's name was complete and the shares (apart from 26% held by FCC) had 50.1% sold (enough to cover any shortfall in the club) plus the remaining minority share was already sold. Funding was in place to keep the club going however the 2 main principals in the club (admin and football sides) were shocked by being handed letters of termination before the FCC signed over the shares to the new buyers. As soon as this took place there was even an attempt made to take 100% of the shares on (removing the FCC completely from liability and shareholding) however they refused to do this and shut it all down, since they had to allocate the shares there was nothing that could be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
The new signings were on less than you'd suggest, the playing budget (with the new and re-signed players) was shockingly small - from what is known about 5th in the league. It would have been a year of mid-table consolidation with cup aspirations or another run to 3rd/4th place.
Initially, which we'd all agree on, it was not a business plan, there was a lump given in and the club worked with it, coming in on or under budget. There was no mad excess and the only elephant in the room was if the benefactor was to disappear. However this was seen coming down the line and accounted for. A proper business plan was in place, sponsors recruited and being recruited, and a far more (I hate to say this) intelligent model in place. Though again, something happened between December 23rd (when the FCC were on board, lauding the club and all for it) and the day before they gave out the termination letters. In that time it was all systems go, which is why I firmly believe pre-election backside covering came into play.
Ultimately players got on with playing, staff can find new jobs, but the programs built alongside the club have been hit and this is what gets to me. Anyone from the Mulhuddart-Blakestown area will know what I'm on about.
"This will be the cheapest bailout in the world"
"We've turned the corner"
"This is an international credit crisis"
"Lehman Brothers"
"Sporting Fingal are sustainable"
No club in any league is sustainable, if they don't get their plan right. However the club had gotten it together for the new season, that the FCC chose not to proceed with the project is just symptomatic of Irish governance. At least it moved Waterford one place closer back to a return to the top flight, so you should be happy.
Well said in all posts Spud.
On a positive note, with the Sporting Fingal name still running with the Special Olympics side and the Powerchair soccer side , there is scope there for a League side again sometime down the road with or without the council's backing.
What programme got hit Spud? Im from the area and i havent read anything about any community programmes that was running being affected in any way. It would be a shame if the council pulled the plug on any just because of the football folding.
Lep, I'm delighted to know the name is still alive, not many people recognised the depth of the work being done (far better to be negative and destructive, not just for LOI fans but the media and public in general) - the fact that the powerchair and Special Olympics sides played in the same gear as the senior side was a really positive statement and I'm glad this hasn't gone by the wayside.
The programs I'd referred to were the football in the community (especially the TESOL one) had been put on ice, from what I'd been told. Also the use of the players in the programmes was a big boost, though that's gone now.
It would be good to see a club rise in it's place, though just to have a senior league club in the area would be good.
The North County Leader has an interesting story in it (which seems to have been leaked for a reason) about Sporting Fingal. The usual shouters (Daly and Coppinger) were to the fore acting as attack dogs and it looks like the FCC's messing about has backfired. It almost feels like an episode from Yes Minister where the truth will never come out, somebody will retire sideways and the work that had been done will be remembered in decades to come. From a football point of view I'd hope the FCC know they scored a major og.
Take off the blinkers Spiduka + co!
Why did GG get involved in the first place?
Were all the sponsorships deals done on a commercial basis?
Still cant understand why e.g. Anglo would they spend a fortune to be sleeve sponsors of one team when they coulda been main sponsors of a few clubs in the same divisions for the same money!?
Bucko shoulda took his time and built the club up slowly from scratch signing all the best young kids he could find, instead his ego ran away with him and 100's of 1000's was wasted signing high profile players there was no need for.
I heard via a player that Bucko called a meeting before xmas to tell all the players that he was sorry the early Dec wages were a week late, he told all the players that they'd be getting paid in the next few days and there would a bit of a bonus to apologise for the late wages and that the Jan wages would be payed before Christmas too. He also said new backers were lined up and full time funding for the next three years was lined up. The players were all delighted and the wages did come through.
But what he was really doing was using the Euro money to buy time till the first week in Feb to try to get another backer on board.
And they all lived happily ever after ...
Unlike yourself Mario I've the blinkers definitely removed, and a long time ago. It's interesting to hear how the old "an informed source" seems to be the main mode of information sharing, yet you don't know the figures of deals or the situation regarding "backers". However this kind of attitude is exactly what the FCC are hoping for, bury the real story under a pile of manure, half-truths, "someone told me" etc - this way the guilt can be poured off onto one or 2 individuals. The full truth will come out in short time, especially if the FCC try to push more buttons, though for some such biased spinning will always be the way forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario
If you have all the inside information then why ask questions Mario? Sounds like wumming or journo digging to me.
Property developers and dodgy banks,
Local government with hands out in thanks,
Brown paper envelopes filled up with cash, rezone that land, we'll go out on the lash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Spud - These comments could easily be aimed at you based on what you have posted recentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
You appear to indicate that you know the "full truth". If so, why not spill it outQuote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
If you have the "inside information" why be so coy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
spud the model was a microcosm of the ireland of the time ,unstastainable and built ona false premise. I believed from day one it was wrong and never changed my opinion but your point about a possible A champoinship side is telling ,that is starting far to high why not start at the bottom at grassroots level and build from there then you will have a club inbuild into the community
No, sounds like a fan speculating based on what he was told. I've been told similar by a ex Fingal player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
The Fingal thread on boards.ie was pretty interesting. A guy employed by the club was asked about sponsorship deals and he said most sponsorships weren't just sponsorships, but investments, and the sponsors were getting more than just exposure. Seeing as you are clearly involved with Fingal, can you expand on this?
Spiduka
> Why did GG get involved in the first place?
I am asking this coz Ive no idea why? Loads of rumours on this but if you cant answer it go ahead!
> Were all the sponsorships deals done on a commercial basis? Still cant understand why e.g. Anglo would they spend a fortune to be sleeve sponsors of one team when they coulda been main sponsors of a few clubs in the same divisions for the same money!?
This Q was raised about a year ago in some newspaper article or council meeting after Anglo were nationalised and was discussed here at the time!
>I heard via a player that Bucko called a meeting before xmas to tell all the players that he was sorry the early Dec wages were a week late, he told all the players that they'd be getting paid in the next few days and there would a bit of a bonus to apologise for the late wages and that the Jan wages would be payed before Christmas too. He also said new backers were lined up and full time funding for the next three years was lined up. The players were all delighted and the wages did come through.
I heard this via one of the players. I have no idea who the backers (if any ever existed) were or the sums involved. If you know spill the beans, but I cant see why anyone would "invest" (inject is a better word) money into a LOI club in the current climate, especially a club with a small support base who have been living beyond their means and burning cash for three years previous.
> But what he was really doing was using the Euro money to buy time till the first week in Feb to try to get another backer on board.
This is my guess at what was going on given when I heard from the former player.
Meh. I don't put any faith in final league position dictating what division a team will play in so I don't see how we benefit. I'm expecting Salthill to be in the Premier Division next year. Alternatively, you could take the view that Waterford would possibly already have been in the Premier Division if Sporting Fingal hadn't assembled a massively expensive squad while they were in the First Division. Either way, I took no pleasure in Fingal folding (apart from anything, these bye-weeks in the First Division are terrible), but it was always going to happen at some stage. Surprised it was so soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Mario thanks for that, I do appreciate the clarification as you know how it gets with journo's on planting or looking for stories, and in this case there's an innocent party being scapegoated when there should be a few higher heads rolling, or at least admitting they messed up. You're right to surmise as you did, but I can assure you it wasn't the case, it was just the way in which the club was transitioning from being led by one person's money to being a proper business. And you are doubly right, inject is right, because no club in Ireland can get a return on investment, they're incapable of it (unless you're laundering money or some such).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario
Dodge, aren't all sponsors looking for something in return, if not then it's not sponsorship but a gift. I think that what you refer to is that one of GG's companies were also a sponsor, though this was a separate matter and was dealt with openly as a pure sponsorship (it had to be kept different from investment or capital injection), it was a smaller amount than other sponsors hence they were given commensurate space on the shirts etc. One thing that wasn't done in the time until the transfer of ownership began was to have a proper marketing strategy, or even a push to really get (for example) match day sponsors, players sponsors etc, that contribute something close to 8% of a LOI's budget. Small revenue streams were not exploited or even explored in some cases, which is why they took your man on to rectify it. I can't divulge the name of a certain gent (of Dundalk provenance) who wanted to come on board with the club some time back (it was before I or our company had anything to do with them so I'm not comfortable elaborating) though he was able to point out glaring gaps in the club's fundraising and commercial structures. It was when this was finally nailed down that the FCC did an about face and the heads of the FCC acted without guidance from the councillors, for which there is major fall out now.
passerby, while I agree it was a bit of hubris, many clubs start with one person, one group, one company propping them up, it's the next step that was to be crucial, unfortunately that was blocked and dropped so it's just a case of, we'll never know. And of course there has to be a head to chop and they're trying to get it. And I'm sure that there was enough will to restart at A level, though the manner in which the original was dealt with sickened more than a few.
Ezekial, I've not been coy, please re-read my posts on the matter and you'll see I've been quite open about it. There's no reason to hide anything as it will come out shortly in full technicolour (including some parts I missed before I or our company had any dealings with them) and I think I've laid out pretty much what happened. So no coyness or word mixing there. I'll summarise it (in case you don't want to re-read) - in late-October/early-November GG was told he'd to pull out, 74% of the club was up for sale, before any buyer or party was to come in a full audit (KPMG) and overhaul (us) was carried out to make it a viable product. A much lower budget was put together, a proper commercial plan put in place with experienced people brought on board, local and foreign stakeholders came forward and committed and the day before the letters of termination were issued by the FCC all systems were go (despite one sponsor pulling out) and that was that. Nothing untoward, illegal or immoral was done by any member of the club, the FCC did what they did and now they're in trouble with players, staff and are trying to cast about for someone to chop, they think they have one however legally, ethically and sensibly he'd been correct, followed procedures and so it will all come out further down the line that there was a viable option which was destroyed in an act of backside covering with an election on the way. Simples (as the ad goes).
'Scuse my ignorance, but on what authority did the Council terminate the club? They didn't control the board. They would had to have had agreement from the other directors, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
How much (ballpark) were those players on?Quote:
The new signings were on less than you'd suggest, the playing budget (with the new and re-signed players) was shockingly small - from what is known about 5th in the league. It would have been a year of mid-table consolidation with cup aspirations or another run to 3rd/4th place.
I can't, obviously, discuss matters that will end up in a Labour tribunal thanks to the short sightedness of the FCC, though I do know that Gary O'Neill had re-signed for slightly less than what we has on the year before - or the same amount Shamrock Rovers offered. Karl Sheppard was offered roughly the same as what he is on at Rovers, he made the choice because he wanted to go to the top team. Ken Oman was going on slightly less than he's on now at Rovers. The wage budget was low, ranking (from what I can make out) mid table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
A couple of players who were to come in (foreign players) were on somewhere between 300-400 a week gross, however an apartment and car would have been included. One of these players still plays in the top Czech League and has been capped all the way up to under-21's. He was coming to try move over to England via Ireland, mad as that sounds.
Find the bit above (embolded and underlined) totally incredulous to be honest. Actually believe that if the SF model was studied properly it could prove very interesting and food for thought for all LOI clubs. Unfortunately the process envisaged here is more likely to be an ass covering exercise for council officials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Most models are a combinaton of good and bad and a proper detailed study or SF (or any other club) model woud make interesting reading and address many of the points raised in this thread..