Big League Shakeup thread

Call me melodramatic, but I think Fingal going out of business, combined with the very real problems faced by the majority of clubs in the league, goes to show that there is something very wrong with the league. Something that won't go away without radical action.

To maximise the development of the game in Ireland, there should be a LOI club in every region of the country. That would be an absolute maximum of about 36-40 clubs, in a closed league structure. All other clubs should be strictly amateur.

These clubs would make ideally three divisions. Each division would have a strict wage cap, not tied to the overall turnover of the club, with the lowest division having a nominal cap of about €1,000 a week. This would make the step up from junior level relatively easy for new clubs. Perhaps sponsorship or FAI grants could also cover the cost of travelling to away games.

Senior clubs should form official FAI-endorsed links with all amateur clubs in their region. The primary benefit of this would be to allow players to be registered with both the Senior club, and a junior club. If a promising player emerges at a junior club, he can also register for his local senior club. If he is called up to play for the first team, a small fee is paid to the junior club, say €30 for the lowest division, scaling up for the higher leagues. A set fee is also paid to the player. If the player signs on professional or semi-pro terms with the senior club, a fee must be paid to the junior club, say €2,500 for each of the first three years the player is at the club, and a cut of the transfer fee if the player moves on.

This way, the clubs get the pick of junior players, and the junior clubs get a fair price for developing the talent, as opposed to just having their players snapped up. They also have the benefit of having their top players train and play with the top players and coaches in the region. The senior club also gain a ready-made and very large support base in the membership of the junior clubs.

For the existing clubs, this would take the form of the junior clubs becoming feeder clubs. For newly-formed clubs, things would be more like a representative XI from various feeder clubs, for example, a Mullingar side would initially feature 16 players a week from pre-existing sides, costing them only the fees to the junior clubs. As the club develops, they'll sign more players on full time contracts, but the wage cap means that they won't be able to fudge things, overspend, and drive the club into the ground (hopefully!).

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

That would be an absolute maximum of about 36-40 clubs, in a closed league structure. All other clubs should be strictly amateur.

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I'm sure there must be some good points here.

But my head went into a spin when you implied that there should be up to 40 professional clubs

I know if something like this was to try happen in Limerick the junior clubs wouldn't have it. The likes of Pike and Fairview wouldn't be willing to give up their best players during the season even if they where getting money and it was only for certain games or a few times a season. The Oscar Traynor team in recent years has even found it hard to get players made available. Going down that route is similar to the route the IRFU have gone down i.e Shannon RFC bring through the players, Munster get to take them when they want and the IRFU gets a say in who goes where and when they can play. I totally agree with you that it would be a great idea to a certain extent but it would also mean giving the FAI even more power so that they can make junior clubs make players available to the senior sides. Already a lot of politics goes on in rugby regarding this kind of setup and I don't think the FAI or clubs could handle these politics.

The key to most the problems is the Junior and Senior teams working together but i don't see the FAI trying to help bring the clubs together.

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

I'm sure there must be some good points here.

But my head went into a spin when you implied that there should be up to 40 professional clubs

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That would be an absolute maximum, and they definitely wouldn't all be professional. It's based loosely on a thing I did looking at the largest urban areas in Ireland without teams. It came out at about 36, 37 teams with potential catchment areas sort of Longford-sized or above.

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Originally Posted by Jofspring

I know if something like this was to try happen in Limerick the junior clubs wouldn't have it. The likes of Pike and Fairview wouldn't be willing to give up their best players during the season even if they where getting money and it was only for certain games or a few times a season. The Oscar Traynor team in recent years has even found it hard to get players made available. Going down that route is similar to the route the IRFU have gone down i.e Shannon RFC bring through the players, Munster get to take them when they want and the IRFU gets a say in who goes where and when they can play. I totally agree with you that it would be a great idea to a certain extent but it would also mean giving the FAI even more power so that they can make junior clubs make players available to the senior sides. Already a lot of politics goes on in rugby regarding this kind of setup and I don't think the FAI or clubs could handle these politics.

The key to most the problems is the Junior and Senior teams working together but i don't see the FAI trying to help bring the clubs together.

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The politics is the main problem alright. The hope would be that most clubs would see sense eventually, as the better players would naturally gravitate toward the clubs that gave them the best chance of progression and a professional contract, and those wouldn't be the clubs that refused to deal with LOI sides. The clubs getting compensation for their players should also tend be the ones who were financially better off, and could offer cheaper membership fees and better facilities.

The idea of a closed league isn't good at all. All clubs should be able to aspire to play at a higher level right up to the Premier, even if it's not likely, a slim possibility has to be there.
There is no need for a lot of change. The A Championship needs to be maintained as a gateway to the LoI, where clubs will develop both on and off the field. There needs to be a proper provincial pyramid system, where the district junior leagues feed into a provincial intermediate league. When clubs reach the top of their provincial system and some decide they want to play at a higher level, the A Championship should be there as a stepping stone. Any future expansion of the LoI, if it were to happen, should depend then on the strength and number of first-team clubs in the A Championship.
The idea of links to junior clubs is good but it has to be down to the individual club's themselves. It might not work in Limerick but it might work in other areas.
Ideally it sounds great to have a club from all regions of Ireland. At the end of the day though, it comes down to the regions themselves if they want a club. The A Championship over the last few years has offered the opportunity for clubs to join. It needs to continue in this capacity.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Senior clubs should form official FAI-endorsed links with all amateur clubs in their region.

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There is absolutely NO WAY the people running junior clubs in this country would have anything to do with this. They'd happily link up with any club in England, but see the LOI as at best competition and at worse an irrelevence.

Not being personal here but the the majority of well intentioned ideas that pop up on this forum involve ideas that one side would find impossible to agree to.

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Originally Posted by legendz

The idea of a...snip..., should depend then on the strength and number of first-team clubs in the A Championship.

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A nationwide pyramid with several hundred clubs is going to divide the support base, and the playing talent. It's a nice ideal, but I don't think it's right for football in Ireland.

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The idea of links to junior clubs is good but it has to be down to the individual club's themselves. It might not work in Limerick but it might work in other areas.
Ideally it sounds great to have a club from all regions of Ireland. At the end of the day though, it comes down to the regions themselves if they want a club. The A Championship over the last few years has offered the opportunity for clubs to join. It needs to continue in this capacity.

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Of course it does, but at the moment the LOI isn't exactly the most attractive product to sell. Stricter financial regulations and grants to travel and basic ground development would help to make it easier to enter the league

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Originally Posted by Dodge

There is absolutely NO WAY the people running junior clubs in this country would have anything to do with this. They'd happily link up with any club in England, but see the LOI as at best competition and at worse an irrelevence.

Not being personal here but the the majority of well intentioned ideas that pop up on this forum involve ideas that one side would find impossible to agree to.

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I don't think that's true for all junior clubs. For example, I'd think Wayside Celtic would be more than happy to link up with Bray in a manner like this. If the idea works, and is mutually beneficial, and I see no reason why it wouldn't be, you'd expect the pettier clubs to start getting on board after a few years. As I said, it's better for the Junior clubs to be guaranteed compensation by the LOI participation agreement than just having their best players snatched away on free transfers if an LOI club comes sniffing.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

I don't think that's true for all junior clubs. For example, I'd think Wayside Celtic would be more than happy to link up with Bray in a manner like this. If the idea works, and is mutually beneficial, and I see no reason why it wouldn't be, you'd expect the pettier clubs to start getting on board after a few years. As I said, it's better for the Junior clubs to be guaranteed compensation by the LOI participation agreement than just having their best players snatched away on free transfers if an LOI club comes sniffing.

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ON what basis do you think Wayside would agree to this?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

ON what basis do you think Wayside would agree to this?

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The fact that they've had no problem dealing with Bray before, allowing us to share their ground and use their facilities.

The structure of the league isn't that bad. It's the behaviour of the clubs that's the problem. Stricter and more thorough oversight is required to ensure clubs don't mess around as has been the case in the past. In the US, clubs are tied to a very strict wage structure, where the wages paid are dependent on experience and status, not on how good the player's agent is. Keep the A Championship and, below that, have a set provincial "Qualifying Leagues" to determine entry into the A League. This pyramid structure will take time to develop, but will also afford clubs time to adapt from local to national competition

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

The fact that they've had no problem dealing with Bray before, allowing us to share their ground and use their facilities.

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Simple as that so.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

A nationwide pyramid with several hundred clubs is going to divide the support base, and the playing talent. It's a nice ideal, but I don't think it's right for football in Ireland.

Of course it does, but at the moment the LOI isn't exactly the most attractive product to sell. Stricter financial regulations and grants to travel and basic ground development would help to make it easier to enter the league

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I'm not looking at a nationwide pyramid at all. I'm just suggesting a proper provincial pyramid where the district leagues feed into provincial Intermediate leagues.
Any step up to the League of Ireland from junior/intermediate should come through the retention of the A Championship and applying as over the last few years. If clubs join they do if they don't, they don't. If clubs are ok in their level in their respective junior/intermediate leagues, so be it.

The junior clubs and school boys both have equal weighting to the LoI in the FAI afaik. Does Delaney look like the kind of Turkey that proposes voting for Christmas?

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Originally Posted by Macy

The junior clubs and school boys both have equal weighting to the LoI in the FAI afaik. Does Delaney look like the kind of Turkey that proposes voting for Christmas?

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It wouldn't exactly be turkeys voting for Christmas. A guaranteed compensation to the junior and schoolboy clubs if a senior club signs one of their players is something the junior clubs would love, for example. And introducing it would be as simple as putting a clause in the participation agreement.

They already have such a deal through FIFA rules I think.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

They already have such a deal through FIFA rules I think.

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I thought that was only for players who were signed on proper contracts, although I'm open to correction on this.

Yeah when a player signs their first professional contract their underage clubs are supposed to be compensated. It doesn't seem to be too common that the clubs actually get anything though. They're probably not aware of their entitlements in some cases and the LOI clubs would be in no rush to pay.

A pyramid structure is the only way to go, it will (as time passes) generate its own interest as well as that for sponsors, supporters and investors. I cannot see link ups between LOI clubs and Junior clubs as working. There have always been Junior clubs with more followers, better revenues streams and often better players than some of those in the LOI, but they survive because they don't have the added pressure of competition. In the early-mid '80s my Uncle was involved with Tolka Rovers. They had players who were more than good enough for the LOI but they just picked up a few quid in a Sunday with Rovers and the club kept ticking over, even with the odd FAI Cup run. While I don't think that some of the Junior clubs would want to pus on up the leagues, some might and this can only be seen as progress. Though politics will always get in the way, as they did with Eircom Park and the voting fiasco.

The last time a discussion was going on about a pyramid structure, good points were being made about clubs who are big fish in their pool in intermediate leagues, not wanting any restructure that'll take place in a pyramid system.
From what I can see, the most realistic pyramid will be between Intermediate and Junior Leagues.

Apparently the club gets compensation of €500 for every year a player is trained between the ages of 12 and 21. I don't see any reason why a larger sum couldn't be offered as a carrot to clubs who are in a partnership arrangement, in return for concessions like dual registration.

the info is on the FAI website under Training and Solidarity Payments. It gives examples too so it is pretty good info.

A common theme in threads such as this is a salary cap type dealy. Great idea but I THINK its against some EU treehugging law! Restriction of earnings or some such nonsense. If I am wrong then Delaney et al in the FAI need to be taken to the field behind abbotstown and shot with balls of their own excrement for not insisting on a salary cap for the league!

And also youd have some cute hooers trying to do under the table payments and making a joke of it!

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Originally Posted by compo

The structure of the league isn't that bad. It's the behaviour of the clubs that's the problem. Stricter and more thorough oversight is required to ensure clubs don't mess around as has been the case in the past.

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Too true! Some of the financial stories coming from the league in the last few years would make Seanie Fitz blush for shame.

The biggest restructuting the league needs is off the field. Annual revenue audits of all clubs are needed until they prove they can trade legally. And if that means winding-up orders have to be enforced, so be it. History and tradition count for squat in the real business world: either trade within the law, or suffer the consequences.

The Director for Corporate Enforcement should stick his oar in too, and apply to the courts to restrict club directors who breach company law. There have been too many well-intentioned, but ultimately feckless and reckless, people involved with running clubs: would the possibility of a seven year restriction as a company director have made, say, Cork City less attractive to a few of its former owners?

One or two high profile sacrifical lambs might be needed, but there's nothing like the threat of real punishment pour encourager les autres.

Brilliant post EG, it came to me today, listening to the interview with Stephen McGuinness about the SF closure. He seemed almost shocked by how quickly it came and how clean the break was. I had to listen to it again as I was wondering if I'd picked up the tone of his response/speech wrong. It was a grudging respect for the club and while he mentioned looking for redundancy, he also sounded like he was a bit put out. However I thought, if clubs who were staring the abyss in the face, instead of scrambling, taking the p$$$ out of the supporters and demeaning players and causing yet another bad LOI story in the media, they just accepted they were in the wrong and just shut up shop - maybe starting elsewhere or starting over. Like you say, history counts for squat in the real business world. Look around Europe and see clubs going to the wall in a hurry and then coming back in a different form. Now maybe a pyramid is needed to bring clubs back in, but maybe not.

One question, a Director who runs a club into the ground or bankrupts them, are they not covered under the general bankruptcy laws?

Yet another lets fix the league thread by peadar1987

Red Army, you can only criticise if he insists on Bray being permanent members of the Premier and that a special subsidy is paid to a local building firm to maintain walls!

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Red Army, you can only criticise if he insists on Bray being permanent members of the Premier and that a special subsidy is paid to a local building firm to maintain walls!

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I thought we were permanent members of the Premier! We tried so hard to be relegated!

And Red Army, if you don't like it, don't read it, to be fair, it should have been fairly obvious from the title what the thread was about!

Fair enough peadar1987 but after 101 threads on it I thought you might be getting a bit bored of fantasy league by now.

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Originally Posted by compo

The structure of the league isn't that bad. It's the behaviour of the clubs that's the problem. Stricter and more thorough oversight is required to ensure clubs don't mess around as has been the case in the past. In the US, clubs are tied to a very strict wage structure, where the wages paid are dependent on experience and status, not on how good the player's agent is. Keep the A Championship and, below that, have a set provincial "Qualifying Leagues" to determine entry into the A League. This pyramid structure will take time to develop, but will also afford clubs time to adapt from local to national competition

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At the end of the day after all the discussion, it it a fair point that the structure is ok. As long as a path to the LoI exists, be it through the A Championship or Reserve League, there can't be much complaints.

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Originally Posted by Red Army

Fair enough peadar1987 but after 101 threads on it I thought you might be getting a bit bored of fantasy league by now.

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It isn't much fantasy football when clubs were meeting last year looking for a revamp of the league. Admittedly though it does touch near fantasy looking for an expanded Premier of 16 when only 14 clubs can get a Premier Licence and no A Championship club can get a First Division licence.
On pyramid structures, if it was to happen, it will only happen within the provinces. It'll have to come down to the Intermediate/Senior leagues to develop links with the various Junior/District leagues. With the politics involved and clubs happy to be the big fish in their pool, it's never likely to happen. All the FAI can ever do is encourage discussion between the various organisations if they were to put some structure in place.

Hopefully the likes of Shamrock and Sligo Rovers can bring news headlines back to performances on the pitch. The FAI Cup Final 2010 was a great advertisement for the domestic game. Hopefully the respective clubs can kick on from there.

I'm not looking to drag up an old topic, just looking for clarity on something I heard recently: the FAI inviting all interested non-League clubs to apply for the 2012 First Division.

Have the FAI clarified whether there has to be a set number of clubs in this Division, i.e. 10 or 12 or is it a case that it's going to be a non-defined number with clubs free to apply every year for membership, even if it could lead for any number of clubs from 9 to 15 or more taking part?

Nothing on the Airtricity League or FAI sites yet - of course, there's nothing to stop them just rejecting every application like with Cobh's last year, but they seem to be pushing this more than the clubs. There are a number of teams that have the set-ups to make a go of senior football, but most of them don't want to leave their junior and intermediate comfort zones, so can't see any more than four applications, if Carlow and Fanad also want to make the step up.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Brilliant post EG, it came to me today, listening to the interview with Stephen McGuinness about the SF closure. He seemed almost shocked by how quickly it came and how clean the break was. I had to listen to it again as I was wondering if I'd picked up the tone of his response/speech wrong. It was a grudging respect for the club and while he mentioned looking for redundancy, he also sounded like he was a bit put out. However I thought, if clubs who were staring the abyss in the face, instead of scrambling, taking the p$$$ out of the supporters and demeaning players and causing yet another bad LOI story in the media, they just accepted they were in the wrong and just shut up shop - maybe starting elsewhere or starting over. Like you say, history counts for squat in the real business world. Look around Europe and see clubs going to the wall in a hurry and then coming back in a different form. Now maybe a pyramid is needed to bring clubs back in, but maybe not.

One question, a Director who runs a club into the ground or bankrupts them, are they not covered under the general bankruptcy laws?

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It's the second time I've said on here I'm not looking to bring up an old topic. At the end of the day, I think the current structures are grand as long as Kerry has a club in the League of Ireland. It has to be said though, the other major sports all have a pyramid structure. The GAA clubs have their levels in hurling and football. I've been to Junior and Intermediate club provincial and All-Irleand games, good buzz around the games. The AIL Rugby League has a pyramid system as well. Four provincial winners play some round robin tournament with the winner replacing the last team in the lowest AIL division.
With summer and winter seasons though, I'm not asking for it. Only pointing out the other sports have their structures in place. The A Championship as it was was a good stepping stone at the time if there were, though very few, progressive clubs looking to make the next step.

cant see any additional Clubs applying to join the league in the currennt financial circumstances.